POP Floor rules encourage cheating?

Discussion in 'Cards: Strategy and Rulings Discussion' started by ukpokemonpro, Oct 7, 2003.

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  1. ukpokemonpro

    ukpokemonpro New Member

    Michel posted this section of the POP floor rules on the Ask the Masters section of the gym...

    From this passage if I go 2nd I could state I have no basic cards in my hand NOT have to show my hand to my opponent and shuffle the cards back into my deck... and draw another hand of cards equal to the number I shuffled away.

    Now this means the POP rules have made the start of the game and who goes second really important since first does not get a card draw and second can mulligan when they like without worrying I cannot see any tourney level player not going second... Oh dear cheatermon has landed maybe?

    Or is this mis-print going to be amended to ..

    The other player checks to see if his or her hand has at least one Basic Pokémon at this time. If they don’t have any Basic Pokémon, that player reveals their hand to the opponent they then shuffle their hand back into their deck and draw an equal number of cards.
     
  2. NoPoke

    NoPoke New Member

    OUCH!

    Not sure that I'd say 'encourages' cheating but it certainly makes it easy for those so inclined :(

    Even without the above cheat I believe that the tactical advantage in EON now lies with the player going second.
     
  3. PokePop

    PokePop Administrator

    MetaRule of Pokemon: If you draw a limited number of cards trying to get a specific type of card and don't get any, you show those cards to your opponent.

    Ref: Rulings on Energy Search and other cards.

    Same thing here. The "show" is assumed.

    I agree it should be added for clarity, but as a Judge, I'd be enforcing the "show".
     
  4. League Leader Terry

    League Leader Terry New Member

    Wait a second? The second player redraws the same number of cards of he or she Mulligans, too? I always thought that if BOTH players Mulligan'ed, they both redraw 7 cards.
     
  5. Joe Monkey

    Joe Monkey New Member

    If you have nothing of worth to add to the discussion,especially an off the cuff remark,then don`t say anything.-`Sensei
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 8, 2003
  6. ukpokemonpro

    ukpokemonpro New Member

    PokePop, we have enough players over here who would at the very least argue that the rules state they do not have to show their hand... assumed only makes an .. and the rest won't work with these filters but you know how it goes .. basically we need to spell it out and make it bullet proof to prevent arguments and yes we would judge it that way too but after it has happended and the floor rules state you don't show then what penalty do you apply?

    Re-working needed methinks...
     
  7. DARKGeNGaR094

    DARKGeNGaR094 New Member

    About 1.5/2 years ago it was. They changed that in the 2002/03 floor rules (or sooner)
     
  8. Porygon3

    Porygon3 New Member

    the judge always has final say, if your player or players want it in writing ... tough.
     
  9. NoPoke

    NoPoke New Member

    Judges don't always get called... Players have been known to browbeat their opponents. Maybe this kind of gamesmanship doesn't occur in the USA?

    The floor rules should be crystal clear on the starting procedure. As it stands you DO NOT HAVE to show your hand if you are going second. There is no excuse for such an omission in the floor rules.

    Sad to say I know players who I anticipate will attempt to take advantage of the floor rules. Not necessarily cheat, but if it doesn't say show your hand then I doubt that they will wish to give there opponent any clues about what deck they are playing. Can't say I blame them either if they are playing in a sporting manner.

    I think the floor rules need a bit of work. Perhaps circulating the drafts to a wider audience would have improved the final rules.
     
  10. Big Daddy Snorlax

    Big Daddy Snorlax Administrator

    Actually, while DARKGeNGaR094 is correct about WotC changing the Mulligan rule a couple years ago, for all types of play, in Casual Play PUI has changed it back. From the Sandstorm Rule book:

    This subject came up at a Rules Team meeting a couple weeks ago and Jimmer said that for League and other Casual Play situations the Rule Book should/could be followed. For Tournaments, you would of course follow the Floor Rules, in cases where they are different, like the Mulligan rule. I'm not sure why they chose to make them different, but they are, at least right now.

    BDS
     
  11. SteveP

    SteveP Active Member

    Interesting. I highly doubt this omission will remain in the Floor Rules for long.

    There is a VERY EASY solution to this omission. If my opponent claimed he had no basic and refused to show me his hand, I'd call over the judge to look at my opponent's hand. If he did have a basic, my opponent will be caught cheating and be penalized. Now, if my opponent decides to shuffle in his hand very quickly before the judge comes over, what should the judge do? That's a tough one, but if I were judging, I'd certainly give a warning and maybe a prize-swap/game-loss penalty if I suspected cheating.
     
  12. Sensei

    Sensei Team Compendium Emeritus Staff Member Trader Feedback Mod

    Ya know,this is the one thing that really peeves me to no end.People who have run/judged tournaments and/or League Play and come to me saying "I need this clarified,this ruling answered by such and such himself,etc,etc...because the people in my area would argue that it doesn`t say such and such in the Floor Rules,etc".

    You gotta be joking.

    First of all,people trying to "get around the rules" by not doing something that we all know is the way to play in a certain situation should be warned.This is another form of cheating and should not be tolerated.

    Second of all,it`s been the rule that the Head Judge is the final authority when it comes to a ruling.When the HJ issues his ruling,then there is no question, whether any player likes it or not.If someone argues the point,then they get DQ`ed.Any situations that are not clear,as in the one above,should be mentioned before the tournament starts.

    If a player has a problem with that,then he needs to be elsewhere.I just don`t understand why some people(players) can`t get this through their heads.

    Don`t get me wrong,I`m not yelling at anyone...just giving my opinion on this type of situation that keeps rearing it`s ugly head. ;)

    `Sensei
     
  13. ukpokemonpro

    ukpokemonpro New Member

    Sensei,

    Well it doesn't help when those players and parents who display gamesmanship and challenge rulings, then post here where a host of parties jump up and down on the judge telling them what they should have done at the time!

    Perhaps we need to reinforce the line that the HEAD JUDGES DECISION IS FINAL. Then when the players whine here we could all just quote that and then take a general discussion on rulings further rather than hammering the judges over specific rulings.

    Certainly I do not think that the floor rules can stay as they are and that they need revision and I hope that they will be passed amongst the MPs for comment so that these issues can be raised before it goes live.

    As it stands saying that it is a given when the rules don't say that will leave us open to potential problems and it is not hard to revise the rulings .. at least not according to Dave Shwimmer...
     
    Last edited: Oct 8, 2003
  14. PokePop

    PokePop Administrator

    One more thing for Tony Blair to get in trouble over.
     
  15. ukpokemonpro

    ukpokemonpro New Member

    PokePop ... :clap:

    Master Professors then so we hit the Judges and TOs :lol:
     
  16. Sensei

    Sensei Team Compendium Emeritus Staff Member Trader Feedback Mod

    Perhaps we need to reinforce the line that the HEAD JUDGES DECISION IS FINAL.

    Last time I checked,it`s always been that way.I don`t understand what problem anyone has on this matter.This is a given.

    If you have problem people,then you need to take care of them.Period.

    `Sensei
     
  17. jdb728

    jdb728 New Member

    , Umm, I have a couple questions about a judge who does this: #1: How long do you think players will want to attend tournaments that you're judging in if you keep penalizing people for doing something that is completely legal(at least according to the rules), and then DQing anyone who points out that a Judge may have made a mistake? #2: How long do you think anyone will allow you to judge a tourney that they're TOing if you keep penalizing people for doing something that is completely legal(at least according to the rules), and then DQing anyone who point's out that a Judge may have made a mistake?

    To keep on topic, I think the floor need to be fixed.
     
  18. ukpokemonpro

    ukpokemonpro New Member

    jdb728,

    yep good questions .. as a head judge or TO at the moment it is crucial that we point out the need to show your opponent your hand when you mulligan at the start of the game regardless of who goes first or not.

    Even though that is not in the floor rules the TO and HJ can add local rules and this looks like one of them.

    As to answering your questions well you would likely lose players and when they came on here all vocal and got support from senior figures here you would likely lose some more.

    And yes your TO may well dump you although I think what really happens is that the TO and HJ learn to spell out their interpretation of rulings right at the start...
     
  19. SteveP

    SteveP Active Member

    I've got to agree with jdb that any HJ who alters a rule because he feels it's wrong (or an omission exists like for this rule), that HJ is tredding in dangerous waters. Sure, the HJ has the final-word, but that final-word had better be consistant with the current rules.

    IMO, there is a flaw in the ruling. However, my HJ remedy would be this:

    1. Tell the players before the tournament starts about this flaw (maybe not using the word "flaw" though).
    2. Tell the players going second that if they don't want to reveal their hands to their opponent before they mulligan, then their opponent has the right to call over a judge to check their hand. If they DID have a basic, they'd be penalized for cheating.
    3. Encourage all players to PLEASE not use step 2, but will allow them to use it if they are so compelled (because they don't want to reveal their hand, and possibly reveal their deck strategy).

    Listen, until this "flaw" is remedied, we've GOT to abide by it! Players HAVE THE RIGHT to use this "flaw" to their advantage for the time being, so long as they aren't cheating.
     
  20. GymLeaderPhil

    GymLeaderPhil New Member

    What we really need are Penalty Guidelines (AND updated ruilings on cards)... or at least a hierarchy of steps that lead up to Disqualification (Example: Warning, Caution, Prize Penalty, Game Loss, DQ).

    We are going to run into a whole bunch of trouble if this "penalize as needed" without examples thing continues. For example, let's say a player goes to one tournament locally and then attend another tournament ten states over. With Penality Guidelines, a player who drew an illegal amount of cards would recieve a prize penalty at one tournament and a warning at another tournament. We've just managed to confuse that player. Just imagine the differences we would have if Worlds was tommorow. Ruiling Disputes would be out the window.

    Yes, I do know that the HJ's decision is final, but if we have too many cooks in the kitchen... players will have Soup instead of Steak. Then they end up leaving our resturant.
    -Phil
     
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