Public Announcement: STRATEGY does NOT = BuildMeAList :/

[ShadowCard]

Sorry to jump in here again. I saw SD PokeMom's name, a moderator who I have become more fond of as I have gotten older, mentioned and couldn't resist voicing an approval for her .

But she hasn't been responding here, has she? The "Who's Posted?" count doesn't have her name.

Anyway, please don't assume I'm the ONLY mod concerned with improvement. These discussions are extended far into the mod boards DAILY.

There's a difference between "concerned with improvement" and "wanting to change." You can be concerned with improvement to the level of infinity but it means nothing if you aren't going to change.
Of course, perception is a lot of that. EeveeLover, as a moderator, sees things that may or may not be possible that other members don't see. So, when he shoots down an idea really quickly in a standoffish approach, he comes off as defending the status quo of the moderators instead of listening even if he is genuinely listening. He may even be helping by saying "the idea has been thought over and it won't work because..." so that we don't waste too much time on that idea. Then the members turn against him. It's tough, yes.

I remember one particular person used to comment that I consistently come off very impolite online. It is something I still work on.

Coming from that thought, could it be possible to be a stern or rigid moderator, but you have to connect with the members so that they don't feel like you are riding on a high Ponyta waiting to hit them with the Pikachu taser? Although it is possible that some moderators lack creativity or receptiveness to the member base, maybe the problem isn't that the moderators are too strict but instead that they lack communication or personality skills?

Take PokePop, for example. Sometimes his sarcasm comes off misplaced, but as I read through the ATM forum, I often see his humorous posts get a "thanks."

 

[xcfrisco]

The list

That was probably the funniest thing I've ever read on pokegym and i think it sums up this thread (all of its complaints anyway) quite nicely! I can't wait to see what improvement you guys have in store :thumb:


(PS. Are you this witty in person too??)

 

[toxictaipan]

Oh ok. Yeah. Some of those sites have moderators who's JOB IS to deal with the web-business and moderate the boards throughout the day. The difference is, PokeGym mods are unpaid volunteers who just do this to keep it a clean resource for promoting the game.

If I were making $40k+ a year to sit down and read webpages, there'd be nothing to talk about; it'd be DONE already... lol

I usually agree with everything you say, but this "you've got a job to do so DO IT!" approach is really lacking perspective.

I'm pretty sure that they are also unpaid, however I'm not 100% sure. That's a good point that I didn't think about. Also, like I said, I wish I could have come off a little more sensitive with my suggestion. I didn't want to come off like, "you've got a job to do so DO IT!" Sorry about that.

However, I still don't think that's a very good excuse. Whether you're an unpaid volunteer or paid full time staff member, you're job as a moderator is still your job. If the community needs something and the current staff candle handle the load, maybe the staff just needs more members?

Also, I'd like to bring up this thread. You have subconsciously (for lack of a better word) watched members and formed an opinion on them. It's natural, everyone does it. You can't help it. You even took the time to put it into a thread for fun. But when I suggest to basically do the same exact thing but call it "work" you don't have time for it and it becomes too hard?

What I'm asking is, why can't you take a minute of your time to sticky a thread and edit in the names of member that you find helpful? You're a moderator; you're already looking through threads regardless of whether you're paid or not. You can't help but to form opinions and notice when people are extraordinarily helpful, because that naturally happens. The only extra thing I'm asking of you is to make a few clicks and copy paste some words. I'm not saying it has to be done every day, or even that often (the list should be relatively small anyway). Just when you get that mental click that says, "Wow, this person is always really active and is always really helpful!"

There's no active work involved. It comes along with your normal browsing habits. Guru Points required active monitoring because you had to keep up with every contribution a member made and reward points for it. Here, you just add a name in when you noticed that they're a really helpful member to the community. This takes everything that was too hard about the Guru Points system and removes it while still maintaining its usefulness.

This is the last time I'll push for it. If you don't want to bother, don't worry about it. I won't hold it against y'all. I feel that I put you guys on the defensive with some of my statements and more focus went on that and less on the suggestion itself, which was entirely my fault.

NOW... ABOUT THE "OTHER" MODS...

I wasn't really going to speak to this because they like to work out things and then 'reveal' it once it's perfect, but names are being drug through the dirt here so I will say a little bit...

EeveeLover is ALL OVER this topic and has been reading-and-responding every single day in PMs and on the MOD boards. SDPokeMom has been dropping in, reading, and responding. Prime, BJJ, and DaFish have about a 3-page conversation going on in the MOD boards about remedies.

LucarioEX sent me a PM that was SO LONG she had to break it up into three Max'd out PM submissions just to send me her entire message!

Evil Psyduck has been trying to discuss ways to change the public's perception about him while trying to enforce rules in a consistent manner.

So, I can tell you that the mods want to do great things; they don't want the site to be anything less than spectacular; they are human.

When you cut a mod, does he not bleed?

That's really cool. I'm glad y'all are working hard to make the community better. But what you have realize is that if you're doing it behind the scenes, we don't know about it. Then when we ask questions or suggest things, all we're told is that we don't know this or that because of our perspective. Of course we don't know, no one tells us! When we're left in the dark we get frustrated. You can't give us a, "You don't know what's going on" attitude if you don't let us in on it and expect us not to get frustrated.

Even just a "we're working on it" like this does a lot. A post like this, R_A, is a good post.

 

[Jaeger]

]1. Y'all mods suck. I don't think so, I think they let the power go to their heads time to time I have better things to do than come here and have mods talk down to me/have condesending tones.
2. My OTHER site is better There are advantages to other sites, each site has different aspects people like I think these should be payed attention to not looked down on
3. I don't like coming here. Usually this is followed with a reason...
4. Well, I guess this is a great site but.. once again I think we should be paying attention tot he reason.
5. I appreciate what you guys do because... I guess you just need ...
6. Your members are all bottom-feeding newbies. Look at some of the threads/comments these sort of sentements don't suprise me
7. Your members suck. There are a lot of under qualified posters that post to much
8. Noone comes here anymore Once again we need to know why
9. EVERYONE comes here but noone wants to post here because... I think people are honestly emparessed to post becuase of all the stupid topics/Spam/don't want to argued with newer/younger players
10. You guys will NEVER get better because you won't do what I suggest... It has been my experience that Mods are against alot of the changes members bring up, and to be honest if this thread was brought around by anyone but you it would probably be the same situation
11. Everything you've tried has and will fail ... I like to be optimistic
12. *random rant about personal infraction experience here* I have a half dozen of these I don't feel like I desereved I'll spare you my rant
13. You used to have some good things that I liked. You should bring those back. Once again pay attention to the idea
14. I used to love it here, but I got tired of other people messing it up for me. This is me, I won't name names but certain over posters are annoying
15. I still come here , but I don't like to post because of other people flaming. Not only flaming buts it young/newer people who don't always know what they are talking about. Being flamed by a person who doesn't know what they are talking about is twice as annoying as being flamed
16. Everyone just talks about the same stuff over and over I kind of see this but pointless topics are more of an issue than this imo
17. I don't like when people post nonsense. You should get rid of the nonsense. I know this is hard but it is true I'm really tired of certain posters that keep posting pointless threads repeatly
18. People don't get to say what they want here. I understand where your going from but you have to understand if I don't feel like I can fully express my opinion I'm less likely to post
19. People post too many off-topic remarks. That should be stopped. I actually like this
20. Why can't you clean up EVERY thread? Isn't that what you do? You got lives, I've got a life, I understand this
21. There's no way to control what everyone posts, people are just going to have to deal with it. Once again its only certian posters that are an issue
22. We should be allowed to tell people off and curse on this board. I think thats a little far but a bit more relaxed would be nice
23. There should be a seperate forum for people who are not any good at this game. There should be a seperate forum for people that do know what they are doing, a forum where I don't have to see Beedril G 17 times in one thread
24. You guys should go look at the other boards and just copy what they do. Then you'd be spot-on Why not pay attention all the major social network sites to, get with the times or get lost with the rest. If other boards are doing something and people seem to like it as long as your no violating copyright laws why not use it to?

 

[Rogue Archetype]

^^^^ uh. I wasn't tossing up a summary. If you read what i said before that list, you'd see that I was explaining something ... :/

Sorry if that, for some reason, wasn't clear .

 

[ShadowCard]

I'm sorry if this counts as namedropping or calling out someone but I feel this is an classic example of how a moderator does NOT know how to handle members on PokeGym.

In this thread, http://pokegym.net/forums/showthread.php?p=1901861, a member made a deck help request thread. He only includes a deck list without a strategy. He says in the thread's title that he is a returning player, in the OP saying after many years, and a look at his profile reveals that he joined the same day he created the thread. Based on the timestamps, 9 minutes after the thread is created, a moderator goes into the thread and threatens the thread may be DELETED if the new--and returning--player's post is not edited "soon" to include a strategy in order to conform to forum rules. (The message by the moderator was "Per gym rules you need to post what your strategy is. Please edit it into your post it soon or your post may be deleted." and that was it.)

Clearly the new member--who is returning to the game--did not read the rules and should be directed to them. However, how great was it that the moderator threatened such extreme action on such a member? A player who is returning to the game gets greeted on PokeGym in that manner? :nonono:

The moderator who handled this needs to be retrained on how to handle new members. Such an action is inline with the PokeGym image of overaggressive moderators. Something along the lines of "Our rules say that you need to include a strategy with your requests for deck help. Because you are new, we will let it go this time but a strategy is vital in allowing us to evaluate your deck's goals and provide beneficial advice. You may edit your post to include one, but please include one in all future deck help request threads. In the meantime, please read over the rules, posted in X area, to allow us to better help you. And welcome to PokeGym!" would have been far better for connecting with the new member. While it could use polishing, it doesn't make threats, instead the message lets the member know that we understand he is new and teaches what to do in the future, as well as explain why the benefits of following the rule.

How would it look if a league leader replied to a new and/or returning player in the way the moderator did? What about a PTO at a tournament?

Anyway, R_A, this was a post meant to help you in your mission to "fix" PokeGym, not lay out the moderator. While non-moderating members could probably be accused of such unhelpful posts, the moderating team should lead by example. Moderators expect meaningful posts from members; members should be able to expect meaningful posts from moderators.

 

[toxictaipan]

I'm sorry if this counts as namedropping or calling out someone but I feel this is an classic example of how a moderator does NOT know how to handle members on PokeGym.

*SNIP*

I'd like to add on to this as well, with this thread. I'm not trying to name drop, but it's hard to give a specific example without calling someone out. No offense intended.

Another member and I posted a reply to that moderator and said that we felt he overreacted in that post. So after deleting our responses, I was given infraction points for "antagonizing a moderator and off topic posting." I knew well in advance of posting that I would most likely receive infraction points (although I find the reasoning humorous), so I could care less about those. I'm not just posting my sour grapes here for everyone to read -- that's not what this is about.

However, after taking the time to read our posts and give us infractions, he STILL did not go back and edit his post to be worded more politely. And to be honest, this is not even really an issue that needs addressing in my opinion. The user was just saying that the thread could be locked, if the moderator didn't want to lock the thread, they could have easily passed it up and not said anything. I also don't think the user was wrong in asking for the thread to be locked. It's not uncommon for a moderator to lock a thread after the question has been answered.

It wasn't taken as a learning experience. Another user and I were given an infraction right off the bat for "antagonizing a moderator" (too be fair, the other user's response was strongly worded, I'll give him that. But my response wasn't in any way, I simply said I thought that the comment was unnecessary) and the issue we were addressing wasn't even fixed in the process. Wonderful.

 

[ShadowCard]

It is going to get pretty difficult identify which moderators do a good job and which moderators need help if we can't use their names with the examples. I think we're mature enough into this discussion to be able to say "this moderator does it well, you should use X posts as an example of good moderating" and "this moderator really overreacted. Use Y posts as an example of what not to do or what to learn from." Done here, instead of The Hideout, the members can give you their expectations as a group. If you get 1 person's expectations over in The Hideout, those may be unreasonable.

It's not like we're calling you out to antagonize or personally attack you. We're trying to help you identify why people have a negative perception of you and who you can learn from. Wouldn't it be worse if we kept saying "R_A does this so well, we've got to elect him global moderator in 2011" and a whole bunch of other moderators get praise, and then your name is never mentioned and no one wants to tell you why because they don't want to get infracted? :frown: That'd leave you wondering and the other moderators to guess.

It doesn't help that the terminology for some other popular forum hosts does not include "infraction"; instead, punishments are handed out with... "warnings", which actually do accumulate in value and can lead to banning.

Just like Pokemon's Warning penalty!

It may not seem that way because ANYONE who gets a "friendly reminder" goes off hollering about how they got an "infraction." I'm kinda sick of that man. It's false information that renders a false impression of what we're doing.

If you get a "friendly reminder" it's SO NOT an infraction for points. It's actually a .. friendly reminder that it's against the rules to do that (or, borderline at least).

R_A, you teach young kids. You know that the term often overpowers the definition. When people hear you say "warning," you've already lost them, especially since "warning" pretty much speaks for itself.

But Warnings don't go away, do they? So, they are infractions without points? If yes, then is fair game to be called an "infraction" in my book. It just comes w/o points, making "I got an infraction" accurate because I didn't say I got any points.

Your problem isn't education of the terms. It's the terms themselves. You've got to change "warning" to "friendly reminder" or something like that. And if they are indeed friendly reminders, they should go away after a while.

 

[Rogue Archetype]

I'm sorry if this counts as namedropping or calling out someone but I feel this is an classic example of how a moderator does NOT know how to handle members on PokeGym.

In this thread, http://pokegym.net/forums/showthread.php?p=1901861, a member made a deck help request thread. He only includes a deck list without a strategy. He says in the thread's title that he is a returning player, in the OP saying after many years, and a look at his profile reveals that he joined the same day he created the thread. Based on the timestamps, 9 minutes after the thread is created, a moderator goes into the thread and threatens the thread may be DELETED if the new--and returning--player's post is not edited "soon" to include a strategy in order to conform to forum rules. (The message by the moderator was "Per gym rules you need to post what your strategy is. Please edit it into your post it soon or your post may be deleted." and that was it.)

.

Yeah. You have a very good example and point there. I've learned to start looking at the members profile before reminding him/her of rules that may not even be known to him yet. But, I've also been hoppin on and off and shot someone a quick reminder not to do something without realizing they were New. The thing is, whether or not cases like that are rare or not.

I'd like to add on to this as well, with this thread. I'm not trying to name drop, but it's hard to give a specific example without calling someone out. No offense intended.

.

I definately see what you're saying. That kinda came out of left field and looks a bit you vs. us. Doesn't it?

... change "warning" to "friendly reminder"...

That was already done like 6 months ago. You probably haven't gotten a warning for awhile!

 

[prodigal_fanboy]

Part of the issue is that online incentive is minimal for positive contributions, and there's not much that can be done to change that. In person, helping newbies out at league and such is great: rewarding, it gives them a warm welcome to the game, sits well with their parents, etc.

Online, not so much. It's tougher to communicate why they're wrong (they usually are) without them going into stubborn defense mode. And then, any insight you post is open for everyone, which is a bit of a risk. Because there's a game of chance, there's always going to be a group of "bubble boys", players whom you are capable of beating sufficiently in the long run, but they're still good enough for any small fluke to be lethal.

Granted, over multiple CCs this mightn't be an issue, but the point remains.

The only reason I have to visit this site really is to check the "What won ____" thread -- no point in reading reports except for friends, because you're lucky if a tournament report is semi-literate. Most of the other speculation is rather wildly off anyway.

I dunno how to fix it, and in fact I feel like this post might not have been very constructive in its own right.

It's just there is no incentive for me to sit behind my laptop and try and pitch in, y'know?

 

[Kayle]

Well, that might be in part because you're already pretty much awesome at the game.

I still have a ways to go and I would like Pokegym to be able to offer me that. ;P

 

[ShadowCard]

Yeah. You have a very good example and point there. I've learned to start looking at the members profile before reminding him/her of rules that may not even be known to him yet. But, I've also been hoppin on and off and shot someone a quick reminder not to do something without realizing they were New. The thing is, whether or not cases like that are rare or not.

Another example a the moderator not appearing to understand who they are talking to came up today. I'd post the link, but it is hard to not make it sound like it isn't an attack on the moderator. What it was: the moderator told a PTO that the PTO is off topic in his own thread. The PTO took it quite well. The moderator really looked like he was overmoderating and his presence in the thread was truly random. The moderator clearly did not check with the PTO and thread creator if the comments in the thread were on topic.

Branching out, can someone be off topic in their own thread? If the creator is the over all guide to how the thread runs and allows the thread to go in that direction because it serves the over all thread, it seems like overmoderating to tell the thread creator that he is off topic. As creator of a thread, there is no one better at determining if the thread is off topic.

 

[SD PokeMom]

a thread 'belongs' to the community once posted, not to the OP...

'mom

 

[ShadowCard]

a thread 'belongs' to the community once posted, not to the OP...

Do you know how this sounds? It sounds like you are saying that the OP, a PTO in this case, is unable to determine if his own thread is off topic. He started it, how is a moderator able to better determine that while the OP is still active in the thread?

--edited comment out. ninja-ed.

 

[SD PokeMom]

i am speaking to board rules in general. for example: outside of the trade forum, we don't lock threads just because the thread starter demands 'their' thread be closed.

if you're discussing a specific thread then a link (PM'd is fine if you don't want to post it) would be helpful...

'mom

 

[Rogue Archetype]

i am speaking to board rules in general. for example: outside of the trade forum, we don't lock threads just because the thread starter demands 'their' thread be closed.

if you're discussing a specific thread then a link (PM'd is fine if you don't want to post it) would be helpful...

'mom

OR . . .

You report the post using the REPORT button !!

 

[ShadowCard]

Ah, understood :thumb:

Okay, I'll post the link: http://pokegym.net/forums/showthread.php?t=139270 - It's Virginia's CoL Prerelease thread.

A different question: don't OPs have the ability to lock their own threads? I thought they were able to? Or did they used to be able to and then that ability was removed?

That was already done like 6 months ago. You probably haven't gotten a warning for awhile!

It's easy when you try to stay away from this place--hard to get infracted when you don't say anything

 

[SD PokeMom]

OPs have _never_ had the ability to lock their own threads on the 'gym.

'mom

 

[ShadowCard]

my mistake.

Good to see you in the thread, SD PokeMom! :smile:

You report the post using the REPORT button !!

We can use that to report times we think a moderator is being overaggressive?

I could do that. It's not like I go searching for these things. They just happen to cross my path. How ironic that you would ask me if this kind of thing is a rarity, and then an example presents itself in the one thread I would be most likely to read

 

[Barkjon]

I feel like contributing something to this thread...

I've had some pretty dumb posts back when I was a new, inexperienced player. Luckily, now I know the game as well as anyone here (probably...) and know the metagame decks and stuff.

I think more new players should come here, personally. At league and tournaments I will mention the 'Gym to people and hope they come. New players may ask dumb questions (like I did... well most of us have done so), but in the end I believe they will become good players that know the game and respected posters here - assuming people don't make sarcastic and snide comments to them that make them want to leave here. So, I encourage you all to talk to more people about the 'Gym.

On stuff about changing how the actual site works, I think it works well. I believe they should do something like the Beach has where they have the top decks stickied on top of the strategy forum - it would help a lot of new players to get to know the decks. I also think the thing R_A came up with, where he posted the LuxChomp/consistency articles and people offer comments and advice there. I think that could really help this place.

I'd suggest bringing back the Guru system, but I know it would be hard for R_A to keep up with again, and it inspired some competitiveness among the community - which is not necessarily good, but not bad either.

I also wish people in the Deck Help and Strategy Forum helped out a bit more. Other than saying "-1 random bad Pokemon +1 Uxie" or stuff along the lines. Like when people just say a few things to add and take out. That isn't really helping in the long run. I myself could be accused of this, but I have been trying to go more in-depth on what to put in. I think that, for new players, the DH/S forum is probably the best for kids trying to get into the game and trying to get help for their decks.

Personally, my favorite forum is Card Strategy and Rulings. I like reading about counters for meta-game decks, techs, matchups, new deck ideas, and other discussion. It's pretty cool, but I think there should be a little less arguing in there (HoPe thread ringing a bell?). Obviously, that is easy for me to say, but hard to actually put into action. Virtually impossible to put into action, in fact, as many people do it unconsciously.

Buuuuut.... R_A's idea with sticking the LuxChomp discussion thing on the Card Strategy Forum was a great idea. It already helped out me a bit.

In general, I think we should be more welcoming to new kids coming into the game - after all, they are the future of the Pokemon TCG.