Pokémon TCG: Sword and Shield—Brilliant Stars

Rare Candy Question...

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BJJ: I fail to see what bearing your post has to do with the issue Which stages of Pokemon can be used has nothing to do with when you can evolve. The only way to evolve on the first turn without having a card explicitly saying so is to draw the cards from the deck.

By the way, you pointed out a dissimilarity between the cards, then said they were just like each other. Just pointing that out. (Yes, I realize you meant that they both broke evolution rules, but still, different evolution rules). ;)

Now, back to the subject at hand. The arguement is what is the default case? The card is neither written in the form of Pokemon Breeder or Giovanni. It lacks either's additional text.

One way to look at this is to view the card without the additional text. In this case, Giovanni makes no sense. Pokemon trader could be implied to allow evolution on the first turn. So, obviously, one of the cards contains Dummy Text.

Dummy Text is text that can be ommited from the card without changing the rulings involved with the card. It is typically included to make things easier for the people in charge by reducing the number of frivolous rulings questions brought to their attention (though this doesn't always work).

Therefore, either Pokemon Breeder has the dummy text, and it's not necessary to put the phrase in because you have to explicitly state you can violate the first-turn evolution rule (or draw from the deck) in order to do it, or, Giovanni has it because just saying you can evolve is good enough to allow you to break the evolution rule.

So, which is it? Well, at this point we're trying to divine the intent of the card creators. What did they want us to believe? I can't claim to know exactly what they were thinking when they were making the card, but I can make an educated guess.

The question then becomes, how do we analyze the content of these cards:

Giovanni
Trainer
Choose 1 of your Pokémon in play with Giovanni in its name. For the rest of your turn, you may evolve that Pokémon even if you just played or evolved it this turn or if this is your first turn. This effect also applies to the Pokémon it evolves into.

Source: Oracle

Pokémon Breeder
Trainer card
Put a Stage 2 Evolution card from your hand on the matching Basic Pokémon. You can play this card only when you would be allowed to evolve that Pokémon anyway.

Source: Oracle

Rare Candy:
Choose 1 of your Basic Pokemon in play. If you have a Stage 1 or Stage 2 card that evolves from that Pokemon in your hand, put that card on the Basic Pokemon. (This counts as evolving that Pokemon.)

Source: Above

Well, I'd like to continue on this tangent, but it's getting late and I really need to think about this some more. So, I'll see you tomorrow with more.
 
Rare candy says the same thing as pokemon breeder just in a different way. Instead of saying "lay one stage 2 evolution on the basic", it says "if you have a evolution of a pokemon out, you may lay one stage 2 or stage 1 evolution on the basic". Then rare candy adds in that "this counts as evolving the pokemon" and as everyone knows, unless you have a power like eevee's that allowed evolution on first turn, evolution is not allowed on first turn. So if it tries to count as a evolution that cannot count, then the whole card doesn't work. It's like laying 2 bounce energy on a pokemon with only one energy on it. You lay the first, bounce the only energy on it then try to lay the second one but because you cannot fulfill the rest of what the card says, you can't play it.
 
I see your point Prime but the "This count as evolving your Pokemon" text could only refer to the special actions taken when a Pokemon evolves apply (i.e. remove special conditions). In that case it doesn't cover the no first turn evolve rule.

The easy way to handle it for now until Nintendo gets the rulings up is to play it just as it says. That means it by-passes the first turn no evolve rule, ect.
 
Kyogre said:
I see your point Prime but the "This count as evolving your Pokemon" text could only refer to the special actions taken when a Pokemon evolves apply (i.e. remove special conditions). In that case it doesn't cover the no first turn evolve rule.

The easy way to handle it for now until Nintendo gets the rulings up is to play it just as it says. That means it by-passes the first turn no evolve rule, ect.
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Why does it only refer to the special actions taken when a pokemon evolves and not the evolution in whole? It says, "this counts as evolving your pokemon". If you cannot evolve your pokemon then it doesn't work. It's like using Harvest Bounty Venusaur, which would allow you to lay a extra energy. If you couldn't lay a energy to start with then Harvest Bounty would not work. That ran under the one energy per turn rule and this runs under the evolution rule. There's not parts to the evolution rule because it's all one rule. Straight from Nintendo's site:

"EVOLVE Pokémon (as many as you want).
If you have a card in your hand that says "Evolves from so-and-so" and so-and-so is the name of a Pokémon you already have in play, you may play that card in your hand on top of the Pokémon so-and-so. This is called "evolving" a Pokémon.

Example: Jake has a card called Grovyle that says "Evolves from Treecko," and he has a Treecko card in play. He may play the Grovyle card on top of the Treecko card.

You may evolve a Basic Pokémon to a Stage 1 Pokémon, or a Stage 1 Pokémon to a Stage 2 Pokémon. When a Pokémon evolves, it keeps all cards attached to it (Energy cards, Evolution cards, etc.) and any damage it might already have, but the old attacks and Poké-Powers and Poké-Bodies of the Pokémon it evolved from go away. All other things about the Pokémon go away, such as Special Conditions or anything else that might be the result of an attack some Pokémon made earlier.

Note: You can't evolve a Pokémon that you just played or evolved on that turn. Also, neither player can evolve a Pokémon on the first turn. And finally, yes, you can evolve a Pokémon on your Bench - that counts as "in play"!"

Reference to blane:

"During your turn, instead of attaching your free energy card, you may instead attack two fire energy cards to one of your pokemon with Blane in it's name. (Playing additional copies of this card this turn has no effect.)"

You see that last part. You cannot play extra blane to lay extra energy because you have already fulfilled the one energy per turn rule. So it's a trainer that allows you to lay an extra energy ONLY if you meet the rule about laying one energy per turn. Same with rare candy. Only if you meet the rule of evolution, you may take a stage 1 or stage 2 evolution card and lay it on the basic that is out.

Evolving on your first turn has been a staple in the rules. The last time a staple was broken was Bounty Harvest Venusaur and it still said "if you attach an energy to one of your pokemon as part of your turn". So it must reference to breaking a rule when it is breaking a rule. Breeder didn't reference to breaking a rule, and rare candy doesn't either.

Take it as it is, but you can't play it as it reads because we are argueing about what it says right now and you know people will argue when you play it too.

In conclusion, if you want to use a special action of a event, you have to use the whole event. You can't shoot someone with a gun unless you put your hand on the gun, draw the thingey back and fire the gun. If you don't have the gun, then you can't shoot someone. If you can't lay evolution cards, then you can't evolve.
 
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Prime said:
In conclusion, if you want to use a special action of a event, you have to use the whole event. You can't shoot someone with a gun unless you put your hand on the gun, draw the thingey back and fire the gun. If you don't have the gun, then you can't shoot someone. If you can't lay evolution cards, then you can't evolve.
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Technically you could hire a hitman(but that's taking the topic in a morbid direction).

PokemonUSA needs to have somebody post on this topic with an official ruling,or this will never get settled.

I've got a prerelease in portland to attend on saturday, and this card could mess everything up(and the tournament starts at 4:00 as is, so we really don't need things slowing us down).

I honestly hope it doesn't bypass evolution rules, but as a Professor and a judge I have to give both sides a balanced look(being diplomatic is a pain).
 
I'd have to say that just based on previous rulings that you should be able to use Rare Candy first turn. There are several cards that have effects that "count as evolving": Koga's Kakuna, Eevee, Erika's Clefairy. It has been ruled that all of these effects can be used on the first turn that a pokemon is in play.
So far, the only limitation I've seen on evolution is on the normal evolution that you can do by playing a card directly from your hand. Since Rare Candy is not the normal placement of evolution, it gets around the limitation. I sort of relate this to how playing the Howl Entei with Pokemon Fan Club won't trigger the power because it is being brought into play by another card rather than coming into play normally. I know it's not exactly related, but I'm doing the best I can with what I got.
I also sort of question the usefulness of Rare Candy if it's not taken to mean you can use it first turn/first turn in play. What would be the point of using it to play a stage 1 if it didn't get around the normal evolution limits? I suppose you could use it to play a Stage 1 on a baby, but then why not just say "put a stage 2 on a basic or a stage 1 on a baby"?
 
A side note: Rare Candy is actually more powerful than Breeder. Now you can evolve Cleffa into Clefable using Rare Candy.

But, regarding the question about evolving on the first turn or the same turn it was played, we've got to remember that WOTC often consulted TPC on rulings like this. I seem to remember WOTC consulting TPC on the evo-from-deck ruling. So, naturally, you'd think that Nintendo's ruling would be not different that WOTC's.

Anyway, I can't imagine Nintendo will ignore or discard the Compendium. I see them using it as a baseline, then make changes as needed. JMO.

ADDED:

SO, IMO, Rare Candy CAN'T be used to break the first/same-turn-no-evo rule.
 
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It is ambiguous:both sides have decent arguments in their favour.

So trying a different approach I though what would be best for the game?

In modified it seems best that Rare Candy should not allow a first turn stage two to be played. The card would unbalance the somewhat slower tempo of modified.

However the opposite is the case in unlimited. To have any use at all in unlimited then the card should allow evolution on the first turn. Unlimited's tempo is so much faster than modified that to slow the card down would remove much of its utility.

Now given that the future of the game from a commercial point of view is almost certainly modified then I anticipate that the ruling will be that Rare Candy can't be used on turn one.

So FWIW (we haven't got the cards in the UK yet :( ) I'd rule Rare Candy based upon the tournament it was being used in. My justification would be that primarily I want cards to be played with.

Anyone have the exact text of the cards? With WotC cards text in italics was reminder text that was not intended to be part of the rulings. (Tyranitars Trample in team play for example)
 
What does Rare Candy do in the GB game? I really don't know as i don't play it but from what i think it does is it levels up your Pokémon you give Rare Candy to. So if you have let's say 60 Rare Candies, have a Treecko, give it all 60 Rare Candies, you now have a Treecko that is 60 Levels higher than when you started. I'm sure if you let Treecko Evolve, you have at least a Groyvle if not an actual Sceptile. All just by using Rare Candy.

Now to translate that for the TGC purposes, you have a basic and you use Rare Candy on it. The only Levels in the TGC are the Stage 1 and Stage 2 Evolution cards. So from a GB view, Rare Candy should be playable on turn 1.

Just because a card does not say something does not mean it does not allow that. In the Breeder example, there was some confusion about being able to use it first turn hence the ruling in the Compendium.

yoshi - you read too much in my comment about it being like Giovanni - Giovanni breaks the normal Evolving rule. Rare Candy breaks the normal Evolving rule. In that way they are similar. Placing a Stage 2 on top of a Basic breaks the normal Rules of Evolving.

And there are only a few first turn Stage 2 cards you have to worry about as many cannot attack with only 1 Energy. THough i do hope it is erratta'ed so that 1st turn Base Blastoise......
 
Rare Candy:
Choose 1 of your Basic Pokemon in play. If you have a Stage 1 or Stage 2 card that evolves from that Pokemon in your hand, put that card on the Basic Pokemon. (This counts as evolving that Pokemon.)

Man i remember the days of Breeder. This is card IS better than breeder for alot of reasons.

I can also see both sides of the arguements as well but the card does not inlcude this very important sentence:

*You can play this card only when you would be allowed to evolve that Pokemon anyway*

So I believe based off what the card's texts says that you should be able to Evolve on first turn.

Yes it Rare Candy does say *This counts as evolving that Pokemon* but if it didnt say that sentence, you could get away with alot of other things. The special condition thing would wouldnt work because some one will think since it doesnt count as evolving then it doesnt get rid of his special condition.

Also, if it didnt count as evolving, someone might bring up that it could still use Attacks, Poke-Powers, or Poke-bodies from the previous pokemon card.


I believe by what the text says that it should be allowed to evolve first turn.


This does speed up the game in EX-on format but i dont think itll be in every deck. Who knows, the set still isnt technically out yet. We will see what happens.

I aslo agree that nintendo does need to bring a ruling for EX.
 
Since we are discussing all sides of this issue, and trying to make sense of why the card is worded the way it is, let's go back to the "Stage 1 or Stage 2" wording. I originally thought that the only reason to have that wording on the card would be because the card is intended to break the normal evolution rules. Otherwise, why would it reference Stage 1, which would be playable without a trainer anyway, if you had to follow the normal rules of evolution?

While posting to the thread about the new look of Babies, I realized there might be a different explanation for the Stage 1 being included on the card. By including the words Stage 1, it now opens up the possibility to breed a baby to a Stage 1, skipping the Basic Pokemon. Pokemon Breeder could not do this because it only referenced Stage 2 evolutions. WAIT you say, it specificaly says "choose 1 of your basic Pokemon in play", not a Baby. HOWEVER, the new Babies ARE classified as a Basic. Azurill to Azumarill anyone ....

BDS
 
BJJ763 said:
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And there are only a few first turn Stage 2 cards you have to worry about as many cannot attack with only 1 Energy. THough i do hope it is erratta'ed so that 1st turn Base Blastoise......
Click to expand...

And first turn Clefable.

The way I read it, the card is way broken and can be used first turn/turn played.
 
BDS said:
Azurill to Azumarill anyone ....
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I don't see how that could be done: Azumarill evolves from Marill, Marill is basic, Marill does NOT normally evolve from Azurill. Azurill isn't really a legal pre-evo to Marill (or Azumarill), it only evolves because of it's Poké-BODY (or power, i'm not sure). Would that mean you can't rare candy Azurill->Azumarill if there is a Muk in play?

Anyway, back on topic...
Nintendo words things differently, so comparing to Wizards cards isn't really a good way of ruling. I suggest waiting till nintendo says something or otherwise rule it like breeder, 'cause I think it's better for the game (unlimited: Turn 1 gatr/blastoise and DVPlume are good examples of broken combo's, can't think of any modified combo's right now).
 
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Azurill is a basic in Sandstorm so YES you can evolve it into a Azumarill using a Rare Candy. All other version of Azurill would not be included with this. Only the Sandstorm version.
 
That's not what I meant. I meant that Azumarill and SS Azurill are not technically in the same evo-line, so you can't evolve it.
 
For those reading the posts, until an official word is given, or until SteveP e-mails me telling me what to do :lol: ,

At the St. Louis/St. Charles Sandstorm Release we will be ruling that Rare Candy CAN be played on the first turn to evolve.....

Awaiting being overruled, I am used to it my now, not as bad as being overruled by a gameboy, but, you know....

Meganium45
 
Technically, on the Azumarill thing, you can't go from Azurill straight to Azumarill with Pokemon Breeder because Azumarill is not a Stage 2 card. On Rare Candy, as written, it would allow first-turn evolutions and is obscenely broken. As has been mentioned, Rare Candy allows first-turn/one-turn Baby-to-Stage 1, first-turn/one-turn Basic-to-Stage-1, and first-turn/one-turn Basic-to-Stage 2 Evolutions. Baby-to-Stage 2 is not an issue, because there is no such thing as a Stage 2 line that also has a Baby. Even so, just being able to go first-turn Basic to Stage 2 is obscenely broken, especially for Unlimited. Then again, Unlimited needs more broken cards -- we already have Sneasel and Slowking. Wait! You could Rare Candy Slowpoke to Slowking turn 1! It's official, this card's more broken than Sneasel or Slowking!
 
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I believe you are all looking at this the wrong way. Rare Candy DOESN'T allow you to skip an evolution going from Basic to Stage 2 or from Baby to Stage 1. It only allows you to evolve into the Pokémon that evolves from it. Charizard doesn't evolve from Charmander. It evolves from Charmeleon.

The reason the card even says Stage 2 is because there are Stage 1 cards that you can treat as Basic Pokémon, such as: Kabuto, Lileep, Anorith, and Omanyte.

I beleive this was the real intent of the card. Thus, it stands to reason that this card allows you to evolve when you can't normally evolve, like: the turn you played it, your first turn, an effect of a Pokémon Power, Attack, of Trainer card prevents you from doing so.
 
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