BlisseyRocks
New Member
Chrax:How is it an opinion vs a fact? If anything mine is a fact and yours is an opinion. In your opinion Sablelock beats everything while my arguement is that the facts have shown Luxchomp winning for good reason.
Sablock theory
- Thread starter Porii Sames
- Start date
Haunter_FanBoy
New Member
@ Naki, you must be pretty damn good to say YOUR testing/tournament results means that a deck is 50/50 against LuxChomp.
MY LuxChomp has an 65/35 matchup vs LuxChomp, 70/30 vs Sablelock, 100/0 vs DialgaChomp, 80/20 vs Gdos and 40/60 vs Vilegar, if you would base it on my tournament results.
Problem?
'A good DialgaChomp blablabla' is just a stupid argument. A greater LuxChomp will easiely blablabla is my awnser.
Sable doesn't beat everything nor does it have a 50/50 or higher vs everything.
MY LuxChomp has an 65/35 matchup vs LuxChomp, 70/30 vs Sablelock, 100/0 vs DialgaChomp, 80/20 vs Gdos and 40/60 vs Vilegar, if you would base it on my tournament results.
Problem?
'A good DialgaChomp blablabla' is just a stupid argument. A greater LuxChomp will easiely blablabla is my awnser.
Sable doesn't beat everything nor does it have a 50/50 or higher vs everything.
Porii Sames
Active Member
Sablock, mine with anti-SP techs, has at least 60-40 matchup vs. LC and higher vs. Dchomp, but yes, it loses to other decks like Dos.
Naki Feralkin
New Member
^^ You're missing the point. Its not just me who has played the deck who has managed to beat Luxchomp. I'll admit I've come across some rough edges with it in tournaments before, Con Le's top cut match at Nationals was against Erik Nance's Luxchomp. Con won out on top, and if you look back at the tournament brackets, you'll also notice that anytime Luxchomp paired up against Sablelock, it was more than 75% of the time a win by Sablelock. Statistics over experience. I'm not just basing my own results with Sablelock nor am I saying I'm a fantastic player, however I have a very large amount of experience with the deck (Numerous tournament top cuts, two tournament wins, T64 at nationals with it) which can back up my cred with said deck.
Pooping out ratios off of personal experience is not where I was going with my personal results. Those ratios are pretty accurate ratios based off of previous results not just by me, but by countless other players who have run it, you don't really have to read any of my statements to know this. Axe pretty much went into depth.
I'm not knocking Luxchomp as it has equivalent ratio's to Sablelock, I am, however saying, not to knock a deck if you've never actually used it and done well with it. People can go 0-x with Dialgachomp if they're bad with it, which is an inefficient argument towards how good the deck actually is, when Dialgachomp can easily be the most efficient deck in format in the hands of an experienced player who can go x-0. People can also (shock) go 0-x with Luxchomp if they don't know what they're doing.
I apologize if I was coming off as condescending, as that's not where I was going with this. I'm trying to state that Sablelock is much better than you guys think, and have stats to back it.
As for Gyarados, Its a 50/50. I'm not seeing why its such a bad matchup if you can lock them down early on. I misplayed one time at nationals against Gyarados which did cost me the game, however I still gave Gyarados a fight nonetheless late game. Anytime I've lost the lock its been closer than it needs to be, but its still winnable. Again, I don't see the Gyarados argument when it can't beat most of the meta right now anyways.
http://x.warnabrother.net/tc/tc.html is last years Nationals bracket, compiled by Jason Windham for information.
Pooping out ratios off of personal experience is not where I was going with my personal results. Those ratios are pretty accurate ratios based off of previous results not just by me, but by countless other players who have run it, you don't really have to read any of my statements to know this. Axe pretty much went into depth.
I'm not knocking Luxchomp as it has equivalent ratio's to Sablelock, I am, however saying, not to knock a deck if you've never actually used it and done well with it. People can go 0-x with Dialgachomp if they're bad with it, which is an inefficient argument towards how good the deck actually is, when Dialgachomp can easily be the most efficient deck in format in the hands of an experienced player who can go x-0. People can also (shock) go 0-x with Luxchomp if they don't know what they're doing.
I apologize if I was coming off as condescending, as that's not where I was going with this. I'm trying to state that Sablelock is much better than you guys think, and have stats to back it.
As for Gyarados, Its a 50/50. I'm not seeing why its such a bad matchup if you can lock them down early on. I misplayed one time at nationals against Gyarados which did cost me the game, however I still gave Gyarados a fight nonetheless late game. Anytime I've lost the lock its been closer than it needs to be, but its still winnable. Again, I don't see the Gyarados argument when it can't beat most of the meta right now anyways.
http://x.warnabrother.net/tc/tc.html is last years Nationals bracket, compiled by Jason Windham for information.
LegendaryLugia
New Member
Porii, would you be interested in playing some RS or Appr. with me so I can see this Sablock? I know it's not the same as rl testing, but it'll give me a decent idea of if your claims are true. Shoot me a pm if you're interested.
Really? What are those reasons, you have yet to give them. Mome are facts because I have backed my statements with comcrete proof. My opinion isnt that sablelock beats everything. My statement was that it is 50/50 against lux and has better matchups across the meta, thus making it a better deck to play in the current meta. You keep ignoring the fact that luxray is played 18:1 ratio to sablelock, yet sablelock is still winning proportionally the same. So, my statement is that, if sablelock were more prevalent in the current meta, it would have disproportionant MORE amount of wins. By ignoring facts (cities results), you create opinions. No one seems to disagree that the vilegar match favors sablelock more than lux. If you want to assume every other matchup in the meta is the same, that still gives sablelock a better meta line up. Do you not find it amazing how many luxchomps were at nats, yet only a handful of sablelocks, yet sablelock won?
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@ Haunter
Lets not confuse YOUR list with meta analysis. You can tech your deck to death to have really good matchups vs sp, that doesnt mean everyone in the meta is. So, when we look at meta analysis, we consider the matchup across the board. By your logic, sablelock is far superior since Con mopped the floor with lux at nats, regardless of how the rest of sablelock players did
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Lets not confuse YOUR list with meta analysis. You can tech your deck to death to have really good matchups vs sp, that doesnt mean everyone in the meta is. So, when we look at meta analysis, we consider the matchup across the board. By your logic, sablelock is far superior since Con mopped the floor with lux at nats, regardless of how the rest of sablelock players did
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BlisseyRocks
New Member
My proof is what you just stated. Sablelock isnt played nearly as much. I'm not doubting that sablelock can beat luxchomp MORE than 50/50, i'm doubting that it should be played more. Sablelock has a LOT less good matchups. And no, vilegar trashes sablelock nasty when it gets one gengar out.
Porii Sames
Active Member
Blissey:
People don't play Sablock because they just flat out believe that Luxchomp is better. I think Sablock>Luxchomp, in every matchup except Gyarados and maybe Machamp.
People don't play Sablock because they just flat out believe that Luxchomp is better. I think Sablock>Luxchomp, in every matchup except Gyarados and maybe Machamp.
And even in those matches t1 sabledonks and early hand locks still make those VERY winnable
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DonphanAtoZ
New Member
Your meta must be bad. No one play sableye in dos anymore. Everyone plays smeargle.
---------- Post added 03/10/2011 at 04:40 PM ----------
Really? You obviously must be testing against horrible players. Against a Gyarados deck with smeargles, you can't lock them, and once they get Dos swinging you have nothing to stop them. LuxChomp with 3-1 Garchomp will almost always win against Sablelock. On top of this, VileGar really isn't very positive even with Blaziken.
lucario aura wielder
New Member
alot of gyardoses still play sableye more reliable than smeragle
So, a 3-1 chomp with dragonite in sablelock is crap, but it wins matches for lux? That IS some of the worst theorymon ive heard in a while. And, to say no one plays plays sableye in dos is dumb, plenty of people do, ever thought maybe its your meta that is bad?
And, how does smeargle keep a lock broken? Its impossible to dragon rush him, right? And sablelock will always have a supporter in hand after a judge, right? Cause, sablelock impersonating a collect really helps smeargle. So, it seems to me that the better logic is to run sableye to break the lock...but, apparently your meta is too good for wise decision making.
Oh, btw, with steelix, yanmega, and magnezone all doing well in cities, good luck good luck with smeargle getting you judged nonstop in every non sp match...
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Politoed666
New Member
Sablelock's greatest flaw is its inability to deal consistent damage large damage to trade prizes. Without Luxray GL Lv.X, your only sniping is Garchomp C Lv.X, and you're not going to be able to 'Turn one up every turn. The deck effectively maxes out at 80 damage, with Dragon Rush and Jet Shoot, and you're not going to be KO'ing a lot of attackers at that. Eventually, taking cheap prizes and bringing up the opponent's benched support isn't going to cut it, you'll fall behind, and lose. This is against decks such as G-Dos, Steelix, Gigas, etc.
The other major problem with Sablelock, which no one appears to be considering, is its absolute inability to do anything against a strong Trainer engine. Anything running Drawer, Communication, Lux Ball, VS Seeker, Junk Arm, etc. etc. will wreck Sablelock, for the simple reason that they'll need very bad luck to draw into garbage when Judged. Most decks run lots of energies and lots of situational cards, such as Spray, making it more likely that they'll be unable to act on a given turn after a Judge. Not so when running 20-ish speed cards. Additionally, more often than not a player running a heavy Trainer engine will have more than two speed cards in their hand, which makes Cyrus's Initiative essentially a wasted Supporter play. There's no point getting resources out of my hand if I'm just going to use the third for a Uxie.
People aren't really considering the fact that there will be people who gamble on a meta full of LuxChomp and Sablelock rather than VileGar and LostGar, and who as a result run a very, very fast Trainer line. You will almost always lose to these un-lockable decks.
The other major problem with Sablelock, which no one appears to be considering, is its absolute inability to do anything against a strong Trainer engine. Anything running Drawer, Communication, Lux Ball, VS Seeker, Junk Arm, etc. etc. will wreck Sablelock, for the simple reason that they'll need very bad luck to draw into garbage when Judged. Most decks run lots of energies and lots of situational cards, such as Spray, making it more likely that they'll be unable to act on a given turn after a Judge. Not so when running 20-ish speed cards. Additionally, more often than not a player running a heavy Trainer engine will have more than two speed cards in their hand, which makes Cyrus's Initiative essentially a wasted Supporter play. There's no point getting resources out of my hand if I'm just going to use the third for a Uxie.
People aren't really considering the fact that there will be people who gamble on a meta full of LuxChomp and Sablelock rather than VileGar and LostGar, and who as a result run a very, very fast Trainer line. You will almost always lose to these un-lockable decks.
Kayle
Active Member
Naki Feralkin
New Member
Politoed's argument is a bit more sound than the rest I've seen here, though I still wouldn't run the risk of a trainer heavy deck in a format that still harbors said decks. Of course, the chances we have of seeing these decks and the trainer lock decks to counter them will definitely be increasing in the coming months.
The trainer heavy decks are always an issue. I have had some rocky games against these decks in the past and have either barely won, or lost it.
The trainer heavy decks are always an issue. I have had some rocky games against these decks in the past and have either barely won, or lost it.
Haunter_FanBoy
New Member
I was serious about the matchups i won, but it's a logical flaw to think that LuxChomp's matchups would be like that. I was trying to disregard Naki's comment because he essentialy said the same, but more covered up.