Sanction on playing DCE in City Championship

Discussion in 'Archive' started by Rainbowgym, Jan 23, 2005.

  1. Rainbowgym

    Rainbowgym Active Member

    Can anyone tell me what should be the proper penalty if a player (who ends normally very high at that location) plays a Modified official CC and has a Double Colorless (DCE) in it's deck.

    For me this behaiviour means a game loss, replace the DCE for a basic energy and go for the next round.
     
  2. annisarich

    annisarich New Member

    caution them
    replace it with a basic energy.

    This should have been cought in a deck check or deck list check.

    HTH
     
  3. Rainbowgym

    Rainbowgym Active Member

    There was no decklist needed, so at that point no one could have cought it.
    Also deck checks are almost never done overhere.

    I need to now the official penalty, because I think a warning for a player who is high ranked, makes it so easy to try this another time.
     
  4. PokePop

    PokePop Administrator

    Well, penalties are at the Judges discretion.
    It should have been caught in the first game that the card came into play, though.
    I can't see it as anything other than ignorance. How would a person expect to get away with it?
    All the other players should know that's not legal!
     
  5. Yeah that's about right.

    EDIT: I think that the player should recieve a game loss and replace the card with a basic energy of their choice.
     
    Last edited: Jan 23, 2005
  6. annisarich

    annisarich New Member

    Game loss it too harsh the guide lines state:
    7.4. Game Loss This penalty should almost never be given out to a player who has not already received a Warning (if not a Caution and a Warning) for the same infraction. If this penalty is issued in between rounds, the penalty is applied to the player’s next game. In cases where the current or next round of the tournament is a single-game match, a Game Loss is functionally also a Match Loss. Game Loss penalties also accompany Expulsion/Disqualification penalties, as when a player is expelled from an event and he or she loses the current game and match. Game Loss penalties should only be assigned by the Head Judge or Tournament Organizer of the event and must always be reported to POP by the issuing party.
     
  7. annisarich

    annisarich New Member

    I personally dont think this was intentionally cheating. It had to be a mistake. If they knew they were there or not allowed in the format , who in their right mind would think they would get away with it.

    With that in mind Section 9 of Penalty guide lines states.
    9. Deck Problems This infraction category serves as a catch-all for errors in registering a deck, presenting an illegal deck at a sanctioned tournament, editing a deck during a tournament, using unauthorized proxy or counterfeit cards, or using cards from outside of the approved format at a sanctioned event. In each of these cases, the important distinction is not the specific error or infraction but whether the infraction was intentional. If the event is a casual one and the error was found before the start of sanctioned play or is reported by the erring player, a Caution is a sufficient penalty. If the infraction is found after sanctioned play starts, is reported by the erring player’s opponent, or the erring player denies having an erroneous deck, aWarning or higher penalty may be appropriate. The penalizing judge or TO makes this decision. In all cases, it is important that the illegal deck or decklist be corrected as soon as possible. If the deck listed on the player’s decklist (if any) is legal, the player is required to play with the deck that was registered. If the decklist contains cards that are illegal (or too many copies of a legal card), these cards should be replaced with copies of a basic Energy card of the erring player’s choice. The player should be reminded why his or her deck or decklist was illegal, and that player should be the individual who actually changes the cards in his or her deck (though the changes should be verified by the Head Judge or TO of the event). Players in the 10 and Under age group may not have a solid grasp of what cards are and are not legal. Therefore, extra care should be taken to make sure that their decks are legal and in correcting any issues prior to the beginning of the tournament while also explaining why the changes are being made. Casual Penalty: Caution Competitive Penalty: Warning 10 and Under: Caution

    So I would have issued a warning , which you report to PUI. And replaced the cards.
    Warnings are reported so a record can be kept to keep an eye onplayers who may have nad habits. I am sure if and when a pattern develops TO's would be made aware of it.

    HTH
     
    Last edited: Jan 23, 2005
  8. Rainbowgym

    Rainbowgym Active Member

    I have to add something on the story.

    This player is a 15+, who wins almost al local tournaments overthere.
    Also if a player is not aware of the format than 99% of the time there are also Energy removals, gust of wind and prof Oaks in those decks.
    Playing 1 DCE and for the rest only modified allowed cards, is the same as me playing playing 1 boost in my deck.
    Sorry but the level of this player gives me the intention of cheating by acting this way.
     
  9. DaytonGymLeader

    DaytonGymLeader New Member

    If it's happening week after week, sounds like it's intentional. Unfortunately, we as TOs and Judges CANNOT keep a running string of escalations that span events as per the Penalty Guidelines and Floor Rules, that has to be done by PUI. However, in this case, I'd start at a Warning and push the infraction to PUI. Eventually, I would hope that it would catch up with them.
     
  10. Lawman

    Lawman Active Member

    Lia: It is a warning and remove the illegal card and replace as stated above. The bigger problem is the lack of decklists. If this is a CC, being santioned by POP, wherein the W/L record counts towards the world rankings, then that is a HUGE problem. That is the reason the PTO/TO/HJ MUST use decklists and review them before the 1st match for illegal cards. If you look in the tourney section here at the Gym, there are multiple links in the threads to standard deck lists, just for CCs. They have the symbols of the legal sets in the corner. I have no idea why a HJ/PTO/TO would run a santioned CC like this w/o a decklist, much less without a deck check at least once during the tourney. In both CCs my son and I attended, it was mandatory to fill out decklists and sometime during the tourney, each PTO had the players count the cards in the deck of their opponant before that round's match. Looks like poor planning by the PTO/TO/HJ IMHO.

    Keith
     
  11. PokePop

    PokePop Administrator

    Which, of course, gets to the crux of what the real problem is. Not any one individual player...
     
  12. ShawofMordor

    ShawofMordor New Member


    what was the point of asking for our opinions if you're just going to say they are wrong?
     
  13. PokePop

    PokePop Administrator

    The problem that I have with calling this purposeful cheating is that I don't see how the person could expect to get away with it.
    As soon as the card is used, any competent opponent is going to know it is an illegal card.

    Now, if he had a 5th Multi Energy or something like that, I could see the suspicion.
    Are most players at this CC so ignorant of Modified Rules that they would not know DCE is illegal?
    (scared that the answer might be 'yes'...)
     
  14. Rainbowgym

    Rainbowgym Active Member

    Point is to find out the correct penalty on this. Sometimes I can be wrong you know.
    When giving a penalty do you have to look at someones playing history for example.

    Something else, decklists and deckchecks.
    Yes they should be used, but we are not in the US and things are different here.
    This was an official POP sanctioned tournament and I think this warning should be reported to PUI.
    But I have a bad feeling it's never getting there, but I will ask the TO.

    The real point is, but I have said that already to many times
    OP in Europe is not equal, rules are ignored, rules are made by each countries Providers because they are allowed to do so.
    If I complain at the official people at PUI (like I did last year and that was more serious than this) nobody takes action.

    Were is the real problem? As far I can see at the local distributor , not instructing their TO's or providing correct rules. Making translations about everything regarding organizing (and put it on-line so it become public information)
    Why this is happening. Well it's much easier to let anybody run tournaments like they wish to do.
    I also think the trial phase should be long over by now. It's 18 months after OP fromPUI started and there is no improvement.

    Something else which make me feel this was cheating, the remark of the Judge towards us.
    "I don't like it if you come here to make trouble"
    Since when is calling a judge when you face an illegal card the same as making trouble.
    I saw this kind of judge behaiviour also last year in my own country and found out that they make those remarks to cover their own misknowledge of the rules.
    But does that make the one pointing on a mistake, a troublemaker???



    POkepop - to be honest Yes there are players not aware of what Modified is.(not only at this CC but also at Nationals) Especial in those areas were never modified is played.
    I like to call it cheating, because in some areas there are players who only have little kids opposition and can get away with it. Most young kids never call a judge unless their "teacher" told them to do so always if strange things happen.

    I experienced that the TO level is really improving in Belgium, they have now 4 places to play were there is knowledge of the game.
     
    Last edited: Jan 24, 2005

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