Sanctioned Unlimited Format Tourneys.

Discussion in 'TCG News & Gossip Discussion' started by Phazon Elite, Mar 3, 2008.

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  1. Phazon Elite

    Phazon Elite New Member

    I want them. Do you? Please discuss. I'll post my views after I see which points I need to focus on.

    -marvin
     
  2. Krucifier

    Krucifier New Member

    The only Sactioned Unlimited you would see would be Ruby & Sapphire on...

    Which would be hella' fun anyway!
     
  3. bullados

    bullados <a href="http://pokegym.net/forums/showthread.php?

    I tried running one as a Side event for IL States. Only 5 people signed up for a FREE event with Prizes. People say they want Unlimited tourneys, but nobody is willing to play in them.
     
  4. P_A

    P_A Active Member

    I have to quote a person from a few years ago: "Unlimited is not for wimps." To be really good in unlimited, you have to have a very fast deck with a solid strategy, and no bad matchups. If you are up to the challenge, it will show your true worth as a pokemon player. Most players don't feel the work is worth it, since there's no where to go with it. Being good at unlimited will not bring you to World's. Therefore they concentrate on something that will. I don't blame them, but it's amazing how much better a player becomes once they branch out. If you can make room for unlimited in your thinking ability, I think you will go further. If there was some way to positively reward unlimited players without compromising the modified OP, then I'm all for it. Somehow I don't see that hapnin'.
     
  5. eriknance

    eriknance New Member

    If it was Ruby & Sapphire on, I'm in. "True" unlimited does not appeal to me at all.
     
  6. metagross

    metagross New Member

    When you can go through your whole deck on the very first turn of the game, establishing an attacker and a Dark Vileplume lock in the end without your opponent being able to do anything about it, you know something is wrong with that format. We used to play it over here quite often (more often than Modified anyway) a few years ago and in the end, it all came down to who goes first. Unless you get a really terrible hand then you have most likely won.

    RS-on though, I would certainly play and enjoy.
     
  7. SLOW DECK

    SLOW DECK New Member

    Folks talked about some true unlimited decks, and the game can come down to a coin flip, and then a demonstration of broken combos.

    I think the 30 card format for the professor cup is something that is interesting.

    I think a "RS-On" or something like that could be interesting if it parrellels the Japan format.

    If you really think about it, maybe the 30 card format (light deck, fun play) might be the best sort of alternative format because if you are going to play at nat's or other events, you are just too worn out in your regular deck building to want to play a complicated 60 card unlimited format.
     
  8. JohnnyBlaze

    JohnnyBlaze New Member

    Hey I tried getting an Unlimited Side event at Worlds last year and no one was able too. I found a kid that had his old school Feraligatr built though and we played. Bring your Unlimited decks to NATS and we'll get an unlimited side events going for current booster packs, that would be good.
     
  9. TheDarkTwins

    TheDarkTwins Active Member

    Unlimited is the following - You go first you lose, because most decks have sometype of lock that make the game winnable right away if you can play trainers.

    JMO,
    Drew
     
  10. InfiniteMasterEx

    InfiniteMasterEx New Member

    Expound on that thought, please.

    And eliminate the only use for outdated cards? :/

    Being a passionate Unlimited supporter, I am all for Sanctioned Unlimited. However, being business-minded POP is about, this would contradict for what they stand for: booster pack sales, changing metagame, and differential power levels between veterans and newbies. This is all true. On the other hand, has anyone looked at the downsides of a single Modified format? First off, they "force" players to buy new cards in oder to keep being competitive, "force" players to change their core strategy, and "force" everyone to keep on the same level. Notice how Unlimited and Modified are complete opposites? If both were run together (or at the very least, some if any support for Unlimited), they would compliment each other's weaknesses and strengths. Then both sides would be happy; Unlimited would be where anything goes with little restriction while Modified will restrict in order to keep the game fresh. A secondary format would definitely not hurt at all. :thumb:

    Although I do have to admit, Unlimited does indeed have broken cards (Contrary to what many players think, its not the combos that break the game but it is the cards.) In that case, I feel, in order to attract the newer players to Unlimited, then a ban/restrict list would be apporpriate. Now before anyone complains about that prospect, there only about 5 cards worth banning and 7 worth restricting (to 2 copies.) I have an experimental list if anyone would like to check it out (It has been researched thoroughly.). :wink:
     
  11. eriknance

    eriknance New Member

    Sure. The post above yours kind of summed it up -- there's too much importance based on who goes second in Unlimited. When you're facing an automatic losing situation because your opponent went second and got a lock on you with various trainer cards, it's not really that interesting. It's down to the flip of a coin from the very beginning of the game. I really don't think I could stand playing a game that depended so heavily on that.
     
  12. bullados

    bullados <a href="http://pokegym.net/forums/showthread.php?

    I'm kinda wondering about that ban/restrict list you're thinking about, IMX. I think I can state the 5 cards you're thinking about banning, but I'd like to make sure on your nerve...
     
  13. Pokeplayer

    Pokeplayer New Member

    We run true unlimited tournaments once a month or so at one of my leagues because some of the players dont have alot of the new cards........We get between 8 -24 persons playing depending what part of the year it is......
     
  14. Nu Gundam

    Nu Gundam New Member

    Well, Neo Genesis Slowking and Chaos Gym would definitely be on top of that list ... (I just found 4 Neo Slowking thought to be abducted by former Master Trainers from WotC) :lol: . However, without Slowking, Sneasel wouldn't be on that list since you can freely use your ER and SER without worrying about Mind Games. However, I guess the major problem is that we will probably have to retroactively errata all the Pokemon Powers from pre-Expedition sets into PokePower and PokeBody :tongue:
     
  15. meganium45

    meganium45 Active Member

    In unlimited, in over 90% of the games, whoever goes first loses.

    The lack of trainer playing is crippling, and further, the first evolution is almost meaningless against someone who has just gone through 20+ cards in their deck on turn 1, and locked you with Dark Vileplume, Muk, or some other such strategy (or has their blasty out and hitting, or their suicune running) or whatever.

    Anyone who has SERIOUSLY tried to play unlimited realizes what a flawed game it is.

    You need to have access to cards long since dead. Our Blasticune Deck plays 1 German 1st Edition, 1 English 1st Edition, a Trainer Kit B Blasty and a Base 2 Blasty. We are phat like that.

    Truth be told, I DON'T have any of the other blastys anymore!

    You want unlimited, be careful what you wish for.

    What was the old joke during the gatr dayz...WWJD?...Wrath, Wrath Downpour for 120.

    Vince
     
  16. Nu Gundam

    Nu Gundam New Member

    Just to let you know, I don't think the current Unlimited Blastoise runs 4 Rain Dance Blastoise, 3 is sufficient IMO. Though I am even considering add a Blastoise delta from Crystal Guardians because the deck hates Rocket Zapdos :lol:

    No, there was no joke during the Gatr-dominated Modified days, just "play Gatr or Entei/Magcargo or lose" :frown:

    But yes, the current game procedures do not bode well with Unlimited because if you go second you can just go "lol Vileplume EX / Blastoise / Muk / Dragonite EX d" and such and watch your opponent weep .,.
     
  17. InfiniteMasterEx

    InfiniteMasterEx New Member

    Now that I rechecked it, I seriously think its outdated and still requires some debate but here it is:

    Banned

    Energy Removal
    Gust of Wind
    Double Colorless Energy
    Impostor Oak’s Revenge
    Computer Search
    Neo1 Sneasal
    Neo1 Slowking
    Neo1 Pichu
    Neo1 Cleffa
    Neo3 Tyrogue

    Limited (2 copy per deck allowed)

    Base Blastoise
    Neo1 Elekid
    Neo1 Murkrow
    HL Vileplume ex
    Professor Oak
    Focus Band
    Super Energy Removal

    Needs Debating:
    Dark Vileplume
    Lass
    Rare Candy

    Okay, I slighty overestimated a bit on how many cards will be banned but this is the breakdown. This list intends to destroy the ever-gripping cards that plague the format, restricting it's "Unlimited" potential more cards to be usable in this format while allowing keeping its namesake as having the most viable combos possible. For example, banning ER and Snesal allows for a wider variety of Pokemon with attacks that cost more than 2 energies to be usable (which is quite a big number.) Many would ask: why is Super Energy Removal limited and ER (which many consider the inferior counterpart) banned? ER is obviously superior to the universally balanced ER2 while SER is somewhat situational (One still needs to discard a card) and much like the Double Gust of GoW. Limiting Professor Oak (a very situational card) and banning Computer Search are incentives for usage of a greater variety of Search or Draw cards, especially supporters. The way I see it, small draw cards such as Bill and Erika would be appropriate as trainers while Search and large drawing cards like Holon Mentor and Steven's Advice would be appropriate as supporters which equates to a dynamic but moderated speed. More supporters also mean less dominance of Vileplume ex which is why it is limited. Notice the domino effects?

    Dark Vileplume is a big iffy for me. On one hand, many people find the lock annoying but on the other hand, it can also backfire on the user. Lass might be a little too disruptive as it is still a regular trainer but about same disruptiveness say as Team Galactic's Wager but with the predicted more reliance on supporters and combo ability, it may also backfire on the user. I might get burned for this but Rare Candy might be too good as I noticed many competitive decks are based around a stage 2. Banning it would increase more use of Haymaker-like (basic-focused) decks and there is still weaker alternatives that give Stage-2 some more support like Pokemon Breeder and Wally's Training. But as I marked before, it is entirely up for debating and I might be wrong on this.

    Theoretically after much debate and calculation with many other peers, this list should work but I have yet to try it out on field which I plan to in the future with an Apprentice tournament sometime.

    With the advent of basic Darkness Energy, even (S)ER would not stop Sneasal.

    Chaos Gym is hardly what I would call broken. It denies the owner's trainers as well, a counter-gym will destroy it, and still only has a 50% success rate. Compare that to the swarmable Slowkings or solid Vileplume.

    To errata all pre-EXP Pokemon Powers is fairly pointless IMO. That is much like to errata all pre-DP text that involves Trainers to identify them if they affect "trainers" or only "trainer cards".

    Rocket's Zapdos? I hardly consider that a good card to be playing in current Unlimited to begin with...
     
  18. Nu Gundam

    Nu Gundam New Member

    Well, I really don't think Neo2 Tyrogue and Neo Elekid are at the "broken" territory since Tyrogue still needs a flip to work and using Elekid's Power ends your turn immediately.

    I guess I am out with the times since Unlimited here is like the Fight Club, no one ever talks about it :lol:
     
  19. InfiniteMasterEx

    InfiniteMasterEx New Member

    They are the only babies that do any "significant" damage that has baby rule. Baby rule is already controversial as it is and the possibility of doing big damage is just pushing it. Tyrogue especially does not need to worry about misfires since baby rule protects it and Elekid can attack off the bench, does not need any energy, and gets around many things that few other Pokemon are capable of doing (baby rule, Holon Circle, etc.)

    Wow, no one talks about Fight Club? Gotta slap their heads around in order for them to read good literature. :wink:
     
  20. Phazon Elite

    Phazon Elite New Member

    Good posts so far.

    In my opinion, the Ban List is not really needed. Everything you listed has an easily accessible counter. For example, one thing Dark Plume and Slowking have in common is their huge retreat costs. By bringing them out and disabling their Powers with a Pokemon like LM Roselia or DS Hypno, you can effectively cripple your opponents lock. In fact, you can lock them with their own lock. Then, if they catch on and start using Fluffy Berry, you can use Aerodactyl ex (haven't tried it since the Fossil Rulings, but still...). What, they're using Phoebe's Stadium? Well, that means they can't be using Chaos Gym, right? et cetera. Everything really has a counter, and I just explored a few ways to counter a few cards.

    See, there's this misconception that archetypes will always prevail in Unlimited. If that's true, how come a deck based on Fossil Muk and Hidden Legends Banette got the top two slots in the most recent unlimited Tourney around here? (Granted, that was two+ years ago, but that deck beat up on so many Vilex and Sneasel-Slowking decks.

    Need to counter babies? Bench a Muk or Igglybuff, Gust out one of those boulders your opponent was trying to lock you down with, and pick 'em off with Exeggutor or Empoleon. Need to counter Blasticune? Tech a Goop Gas Attack in your deck (and Igglybuff to disable Slowking). Need to counter Vilex? Heck, use GE Shuckle or something (I actually really like that idea......), or put a few supporters in your deck. Sick of ER/SER? Don't use expensive attackers!

    I'm sure is seems incomprehensible, but you CAN succeed in True Unlimited with an oddball deck.

    Also, banning Rare Candy will do nothing but make everyone use the formula of (Random Stage 1 or Basic) + (Muk/Slowking) = Deck.
     
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