Should we add another benefit to evolving? (If so, what)

Discussion in 'TCG News & Gossip Discussion' started by yoshi1001, Apr 12, 2012.

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  1. yoshi1001

    yoshi1001 New Member

    With the latest discussions of basics being too powerful, maybe it would be good to add another benefit to evolving. Currently, evolutions get to remove special conditions, usually have some more hp, but maybe there should be some other advantage to even out the fact that evolutions require more cards in your deck. One thing that occured to me is to automatically heal a certain amount of damage when a Pokemon evolves. Might not be that helpful in this OHKO-heavy format, but it is an idea. Any others?
     
  2. Charranitar

    Charranitar New Member

    Just give the Stage 2's abilities or attacks, with suitable HP to make them worthwhile playing imo.
     
  3. vaporeon

    vaporeon Moderator

    Its not that they need another benefit, its just the game needs to me reassessed. They need to rebuild the game from the ground up and fix the problems. Maybe rehire the people from the last ex format to fix this one because the people making the cards now are out of control.
     
  4. Prime

    Prime Content Developer<br>Blog Admin<br>Contest Host

    To me, strong Basics should be equal to strong Evolutions. The problem that arises from this equality is that it takes a lot less time and resources to setup a Basic than an Evolution. Thus, there needs to be some advantage to playing the Evolution.

    Right now, the basic EXs have the highest HP, and deal arguably the most damage. Minus lacking good Abilities that can energy accelerate or disrupt the opponent's use of trainers, the Basic EXs do everything the Evolutions can do, but better.

    In my honest opinion, I think the higher the Evolution stage, the less energy its attacks should require. So a powerful Basic could do 120 for FFC (discard 2 fire), while a powerful stage 1 could do 120 for FCC (discard 2 energy), while a powerful stage 2 could do 120 for FF (discard 2 fire) and it would be kind of balanced.
     
  5. Cyrus

    Cyrus Iron Chef - Master Emeritus

    This right here is the key to balancing evolutions and basics: not necessarily accel or disruption, but just abilities in general.

    Good abilities that can tilt matchups in their favor.

    Abilities liiiiiike:

    *A Desert Ruins-esque Ability that damages Pokemon-EX just for being on the board (making it stack would just be icing on the cake. Would it not be amazing to be able to do 40 damage in between turns to one of these?)

    *Safeguard-esque effects (like on an upcoming Sigilyph)

    *Energy bounce-back or consistent discard (i.e., not on a flip like Krookodile)

    ...And so on.
     
  6. cabd

    cabd New Member

    To add to Cryus' most excellent point, I think Aggron would be playable if the effect was 5 discarded, or if it was 3 to the lost zone instead. And remove the flippy fail clause in that attack. Poor guy...
     
  7. Medaforcer

    Medaforcer New Member

    Personally I wouldn't mind going back to the old rare candy.
     
  8. Skitty

    Skitty New Member

    This. I think the rule change in Rare Candy is what stopped the stage 2's the most. It was changed because it was "supposed" to stop things like first turn wins with Machamp, right? Well that doesn't work any more because now we're just getting donked by basics instead.
    I don't know about anyone else, but I much prefered being donked by someone having to draw a Machop, Machamp, Rare Candy, a Fighting Energy and maybe a Switch then the opponent just needing a Mewtwo and a DCE. Changing the Rare Candy rule back (after Vileplume rotates out if needed) would make this a far better format in my opinion.
     
  9. ShadowGuard

    ShadowGuard <a href="http://pokegym.net/forums/showpost.php?p=

    Reprint these cards:
    Scramble Energy, Double Rainbow Energy, Spiritomb (AR)
    ... and we're fine. ^^
     
  10. P_A

    P_A New Member

    In the game I noticed that some pokemon are heavier than others, so perhaps evolutions that are "lighter" per se should get to be easier to retreat (ie free retreat to evolutions like Butterfree, Beedrill, Alakazam, Victreebel, Ampharos, Jumpluff, Kingdra, Gardevoir, Galade, Flygon, Infernape, Mothim, Togekiss, Surperior, Leavany, Gothitelle etc) and lower (but not free) to heavier pokemon (ie to heavier ones like Venusaur, Charizard, Blastoise, Nidoqueen/king, Machamp, Golem, Feraligatr, Swampert, Aggron, Metagross, Torterra, Garchomp, Mamoswine, Emboar, Seismitoad, Krookodile, etc). just a thought.
     
  11. DarthKalas

    DarthKalas New Member

    They just need to give a lot more support to stage 2 like before
    Eviolite, prism, skyarrow, etc
    They r giving basics all the support, so why would u want to play a stage 2 when u have support for basics AND they r completely overpowered?
    I honestly believe if we got some support, a lot of our card pool could become playable (as oppose to getting 2-5 cards from a set and everything else being crap, Emerging powers anyone?)
     
  12. PidgeyCornerFTW

    PidgeyCornerFTW New Member

    Just give us Broken Time-Space. Come on PUI, it's not as "broken" as you think. :(
    Posted with Mobile style...
     
  13. QD4U

    QD4U New Member

    Nope, not necessary, just make stage 2's naturally stronger than basics/stage 1's.
     
  14. Absoltrainer

    Absoltrainer New Member

    240 HP Stage 2's with 160 damage attacks hmmm?
     
  15. QD4U

    QD4U New Member

    ^ of course not. basics would have to be weaker. EX's are still fine though, because they give up two prices. but they don't need to have broken attacks like X-ball and whatever Rayquaza EX's 2nd attack is called.
     
  16. iLifeless

    iLifeless New Member

    BTS which only works on basics that evolve to stage 2's.
     
  17. cabd

    cabd New Member

    Except Eelektrik, the primary worry about a stage-1 BTS issue, evolves into elektross... So it wouldn't help at all.
     
  18. treyh37

    treyh37 Member

    what if we errata'd rare candy again so it let basics evolve into stage 1 if played that turn and stage 2 if they can evolve normally. it would give us 2 turn stage 2s in 2 different ways and turn 1 stage 1s.

    another idea would be a stadium thats the opposite of snow point temple (ie upping evolved hp or lower basic hp).

    also thought i'd look at the various stage 2s we've gotten in the BW series and do a rough look at how good they'd be if we didn't have overpowered basics

    BW (11 total)
    Serperiors, Emboars, Samurotts: med-high
    Scolipede: medium, Reuniclus: tech
    Krookodile: med-high, Klinklang: tech, med
    Stoutland, Unfezant: low-med

    EP (9 total)
    Leavanny(s): low-med, Scolipede: medium
    Gothitelle(s): med-high, Gigalth: med-high
    Krookodile: med-high, Klinklang: med-high
    Unfezant: med

    NV (12 total)
    Leavanny: tech, low-med, Seismitoad: med-high
    Vanilluxe: med-high, Eelektross: med
    Reuniclus(s): low-med, Chandelure: med-high
    Gigalth: med-high, Conkeldurr(s): med-high
    Hydreigon: high, Haxorus: high

    ND (5 total)
    Chandelure: high, Vanilluxe: tech, med
    Luxray: high, Gardevoir, Shiftry: tech, med

    theres 37 stage 2s and about half have high rating (ie dam 60+ and maybe an effect) with only 5-8 able to do 100+ damage meanwhile all 6 EX and at least 8 basic legendarys can do 100+ one way or another, so we are definately not getting enough high attack stage 2s compared to basics.
     
  19. Tash

    Tash New Member

    Let them accumulate HP from lower stages. Now they can finally last a few turns before getting blown up by a basic. (Then again, I'm in favor of a slower format)
     
  20. Otaku

    Otaku Active Member

    I must confess to a "rargh!" feeling as I read this.

    There are several flaws that have often been present most formats of the game, but that in this current format are all rolled back into one. Let's address some of them.

    Pokemon requires you have a Pokemon in play or you lose. Once again you can use any Trainers you want first turn, but must wait a turn to Evolve. We have Energy acceleration with few restrictions on how much Energy is attached where, as well as a fairly simple combo that involves just three Basic Pokemon... in a format where we have a Supporter that can grab any three Basic Pokemon. Plus we have Double Colorless Energy and Basics with (CC) attacks. -_- Also, we just have several Items that are taken to the next level by how they interact with everything else... sometimes two or three levels of increased potency; a good card becomes great quickly becomes "broken".

    So here are some suggestions:

    1) Print nothing with damaging attacks that can be used on a player's first turn. This is one of the simplest solutions right here, though of course it is a slow solution, since we know what the current and new few sets contain. Still, imagine a format where each player is guaranteed a turn to get their most basic set-up done. If Energy acceleration that works first/second turn of the game exists, no card compatible with it should be designed that can "go off" first/second turn. So if Double Colorless Energy is legal, nothing can be printed with a damaging (CC) attack that isn't at least a Stage 1 Pokemon. Low Energy attacks are either defensive, set-up related, or something similarly strategic but not damaging.

    2) Fully Evolved Pokemon are on a level playing field, but equality does not equal "sameness". This is something that has almost been done before, but generally the design over- or under-compensates. Notice what I just said previously about attacks and Energy acceleration: thus even fully Evolved Basic Pokemon won't have built in Energy acceleration unless it can't be used to get off a damaging first turn attack.

    HP scores and damage output on fully Evolved Pokemon will be quite similar, and often the same, regardless of Stage. A fully Evolved Basic, a fully Evolved Stage 1, a fully Evolved Stage 2 Pokemon all competing at a similar level. The difference will be that opening with a fully Evolved Basic Pokemon will mean building it while Active (and vulnerable) or building it slowly on the Bench and needing something else, giving a certain balance between it and a properly designed Evolutionary line.

    3) Make lower Stages worth playing! You've got to be careful to abide by the above rules, but think about it. If fully Evolved Pokemon are on even footing, then you can make being an Evolving Basic or Stage 1 an advantage! The Basic of the Evolving line can help set-up, filling a role that a fully Evolved Basic Pokemon would have to run another Pokemon-line to fill. Since we've made sure that damaging attacks require more Energy, they aren't natural OHKOs 9as in being OHKOed) until at least a the opponent's second turn, and probably not until the third.

    Now do the math: if the Basic that helps me set-up is going to Evolve as soon as possible, the only reason that Basic is still a Basic but my opponent has access to an Evolved Pokemon (or powered up Basic Pokemon) to go on the offensive is they went first (which is a separate issue).

    The often skipped Stage 1 form would provide something the fully Evolved Basic and Stage 1 lack: an earlier (weakened) offense and/or also continue aiding in set-up. Croconaw is a good example of this: while its attack isn't great at least it has some strategic use. Look at the Poke-Power though, which sets up for Feraligatr.

    If you can't use the links provided, these are the ones from Mysterious Treasures: Croconaw lets you look at the top five cards of your deck and add any Energy cards found there to your hand, then shuffles what is left of those five cards back into your deck. The Feraligatr is the version that for (WW) can return Energy cards from your hand back to your deck for 20 damage a pop. I ran those guys when they were Modified legal and I usually only used Rare Candy on my first Feraligatr or when desperate and behind: I wanted to get off those Croconaw! Spare Rare Candy were actually as important to rapidly Evolve into my supporting Stage 1 Pokemon in a single turn.

    4) Maintain lower damage-to-HP ratio for all Pokemon, and give an Evolutionary line most of its HP in its Basic form. Pokemon should not be about OHKOs unless it is through a masterful combo or perhaps the luck of exploiting Weakness or similar conditions. Also, let's not make Basic Pokemon so OHKO prone to begin with: the final Stage of an Evolutionary line still hits the max HP, but each previous Stage should at most be 40 HP less, and preferably only 20 or 30. At least using current HP scores.

    This is practically two points, but separate I believe we'd still have issues so I am presenting them as just one. Following an earlier point, I was already making it so that damaging attacks would be slow coming, but remember that before Mewtwo EX, before even Reshiram and Zekrom, we were testing and being amazed by how brutal Donphan Prime and Yanmega Prime were in HGSS-On. Upping the HP across the board (or lowering damage output) are needed to prevent easy wins from going first and thus Evolving first.

    I favor upping the HP scores myself, since it provides more flexibility to attacks that are limited to 10 damage increments and HP scores are pretty massive amongst Pokemon in the video games. I've already stated fully Evolved is fully Evolved, so a fully Evolved Basic, Stage 1, and Stage 2 Pokemon (so from three different lines) that have similar HP scores in the video game would have similar HP scores in the TCG. However, unless it is a major point of the Evolutionary line (like Magikarp and Gyrados), the lower Stages reference the final Stage for HP.

    So just to give you an idea, using current HP scores for a guideline, yeah a fully Evolved Basic Pokemon can still clock in at 130 HP (without being a Pokemon EX), and a similar fully Evolved Stage 1 and fully Evolved Stage 2 Pokemon will clock in at about the same. The basic form of the fully Evolved Stage 1 is going to clock in at about 100 HP, as is the Stage 1 form of the fully Evolved Stage 2. The basic form of the fully Evolved Stage 2 is going to have about 70 HP. If all three are beefier Pokemon, the numbers skew higher, and if they are something less beefy, they'd skew a little lower. Of course, since I used current HP scores, attacks would have to hit about half as hard as they do now. =P

    The idea is if an Evolving Basic Pokemon is opening, it should last at least one turn, and upwards of three if the opponent doesn't have a "fast" deck. A fully Evolved Pokemon using its best attack can still score a OHKO, but it's when it makes sense: Charizard is still stomping on a Tepig, but a Pignite will need a little softening up to quickly finish and it will be a proper battle between a Charizard and an Emboar.

    Looking at what concerns me most now, the "problem" attackers are broken because of being able to easily use and abuse certain Items, and simply the damage-to-HP ratios of so many current Pokemon. Plain Reshiram and Zekrom are just 10 points off of being able to OHKO each other, the biggest fully Evolved Basic Pokemon in the game! Well, before factoring in Pokemon EX. Thing is, if Pokemon EX were this efficient, Reshiram EX and Zekrom EX would each hit for their current damage... but for one less Energy than they do now. ;) Possibly 10 or 20 points more, so that one PlusPower yields a OHKO of even other Pokemon EX. 8-X

    5) Quit ignoring that broken=broken. This is sort of a catch all, but here goes: a lot of actual cards and suggested fixes ignore that if one card is overpowered, making another card just as powerful almost never balances a format. Basically, unless the two cards were designed to keep each other in check, you're just making a bad situation worse.

    The best examples I can think of for this are Rare Candy, Broken Time-Space, Double Rainbow Energy, and Scramble Energy, especially all together! These cards put Evolutions on par with broken Basic Pokemon decks, sometimes quite literally. If we restore Rare Candy to its former self, would it not be tempting for every deck to run a 2-0-2 or 2-1-2 line of Magnezone Prime? If you're running any other Evolution, you're already probably maxing out Rare Candy and/or Junk Arm. So those four or five slots means your opening becomes about setting up Magnezone Prime.

    Why isn't that wasteful? Same reason we used to set up Claydol, same reason we used to first set up Pidgeot: they basically replace the resources used to set them up in one turn. So if your opponent doesn't turn around and OHKO them... you've already broken even! Magnezone Prime is not as good at setting up as either of those two, but I'll wager it is a far better attacker. Again, in an Evolution focused deck, if Double Rainbow Energy or Scramble Energy are legal, you're running one, the other, or both. I am aware that a "multi-Energy card" doesn't do anything for Magnezone Prime's damage output, but it still powers the attack in a single turn and means you don't need to worry about providing Lightning Energy in a non-Lightning-Type deck.

    It is pretty broken when Evolution with a three Energy attack can be dropped from hand with no real warning. Yes, the best players will use it well, but the return is so great that only the worst players won't garner a solid return from it. That's a restored Rare Candy combined with Scramble Energy format.

    Now if you don't consider the raw speed of the current format "broken", I'm not really talking to you. We simply view the game different. :)

    tl;dr:

    1) Print nothing with damaging attacks that can be on a player's first turn.
    2) Fully Evolved Pokemon are on a level playing field, but equality does not equal "sameness".
    3) Make lower Stages worth playing!
    4) Maintain lower damage-to-HP ratio for all Pokemon, and give an Evolutionary line most of its HP in its Basic form.
    5) Quit ignoring that broken=broken.
     
    Last edited: Apr 16, 2012
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