Pokémon TCG: Sword and Shield—Brilliant Stars

Skyla

In the defense of Pidgeot, it mad many decks playable, no matter what the deck was. There were also many counters to turn it off. You had Battle Frontier to turn off the power and Giant Stump to force a opponent to discard it. Pidgeot was good but not too good. Everyone played it so they both had the option and Pidgeot made the format skill based and not luck based.

If you want to talk about powerful, then Cyrus's Conspiracy where only one type of deck could use it. We need more cards that work for everything. It would be nice to have a Dark Patch for all energy types.

I believe the opposite. If you have a ton of cards that are good for everything, where's the creativity and variety in deckbuilding? We already have almost no variety in T/S/S lines as it is.. every deck already has Catcher, most decks use Ultra Ball/Max Potion at this stage in the game, and everyone runs almost the same Supporter line, barring minor adjustments for the specific deck and play style. We don't need more cards that will make everyone's deck the same, we need specialized cards for specialized strategies and types. That's why I'm loving Plasma right now; it gives those types of Pokemon something unique. Frankly, I loved the Gym Heroes/Gym Challenge times where you had benefits for running a Blaine or Erika deck.
 
I don't mean to nitpick, but how some are stating things seems... inaccurate. First, formats with "reliable TecH" usually are my least favorite, but Skyla doesn't give us that. For that you need Computer Search/Item Finder or perhaps Twins/Junk Arm... or a card I truly loathed (because it was too powerful) Pidgeot (EX: FireRed/LeafGreen 10/112).

I believe Skyla can give us a happy medium. Unless they print a method of easily recycling Items from the discard (not costing an attack or being your Ace Spec), then Skyla will be "just right" since you can snag any Trainer (and thus most true TecH cards) from your deck, but at the significant cost of your Supporter. Yes, Pidgeot was a Stage 2 line, but at the time it was often a 2HKO and of course, a re-usable effect.

So again, I apologize if it seems like I am psychotically obsessing with semantics, I want to express things as clearly as possible, especially for those that haven't experienced the full spectrum of search options the TCG has experienced over the years.

I'd be a fool to suggest that it's one of the best search cards ever, because I have no hard facts to argue that point either way. That's not what I am trying to convey. What i mean is that For this format, and especially for people like me who like playing singletons to gain an advantage in very specific situations, it's the obvious go to card.

Sounds silly, but for me its kind of comparable to being deprived of food for a few days and then being given ramen: certainly not as good as what you might remember, but at this point, you'll take what you can get.
 
Reminds me a lot of this card. Now, obviously, Skyla is better because you can search your entire deck, but my point is that Supporters that do things other than give you more cards often just don't get played. Thinking about some of those supporters, there's Cilan, Seeker, Black Belt, Fisherman, Hooligan's Jim and Cass, Interviewer's Questions, Lucian's Assignment, Marley's Request, and on and on.

The real question behind the playability of Skyla is simple: Is getting any 1 trainer from your deck more important than maximizing your chances of setting up through simple drawpower? Or, does the format offer the right mix of trainers to allow a player to successfully use Sklya to set up? For the former question, I can see speed decks taking advantage of something like Skyla. I can see Skyla being used to grab Rare Candy as well. And of course, if ever we get something like Uxie or Claydol, I can see Skyla falling in quite nicely (especially with so many trainers that search for Pokemon). For the second question, we are getting trainers like Bike and Computer Search. In case you ever find yourself with no draw supporters and a Skyla, simply Skyla for a Computer Search for a Bike (or a draw supporter).

So given the trainers in our format once BC gets released, I'm thinking of Skyla more like a toned-down Castaway or Cyrus's Conspiracy than all those other supporters I listed. I think it has a lot of potential, but definitely requires some testing!
 
In the defense of Pidgeot, it mad many decks playable, no matter what the deck was.

Playable or functional? The two are not the same thing. My experience was that Pidgeot made the best decks either dominant (extreme end of "playable") or dominant and functional... where functional just means that the deck accomplishes its goals other than actually securing a win. Basically, that amounts to setting up and accomplishing any key tactics, whether or not those end up winning you the game or not.

Some top decks wouldn't have worked without Pidgeot, some would. Still, most decks ended up remaining sub-par even if Pidgeot helped them, plus some decks that would have been good were hurt by Pidgeot. Yes, hurt: decks that excel at quickly taking down opponents but at a reasonable cost to itself were really hurt.

Decks like one of my favorites (translation: this is my personal bias), Liability. Still, many decks suffered as Pidgeot enabled rapid-fire recovers for all decks... meaning the top decks just remained the top decks. Coming up with a clever rogue deck or play meant nothing because the next turn a Quick Search and a Supporter usage and your opponent had their next attacker ready to go!

There were also many counters to turn it off. You had Battle Frontier to turn off the power and Giant Stump to force a opponent to discard it.

There are counters and there are successful counters. Battle Frontier did wonders against the new wave of Dark and Rocket's decks, but it wasn't all that effective a counter for Pidgeot; Pidgeot decks just ran a different Stadium. As long as they could draw (or spare a preparatory Quick Search for) a Stadium, Quick Search was back! That means Battle Frontier could completely fail to counter Pidgeot!

About Giant Stump: yes its effect forced players down to just three Pokémon on your Bench but realistically, the only time you'd give up your Pidgeot was when you already had a strong set-up. The majority of the time it would make more sense to keep Pidgeot and rebuild your Bench... and that assumes you needed more than three Pokémon on your Bench.

Both were released after Pidgeot: Battle Frontier debuted three whole sets later... Giant Stump six full sets!

Pidgeot was good but not too good. Everyone played it so they both had the option and Pidgeot made the format skill based and not luck based.

To give a good impression of the format, players need to be aware that this was a time with draw power like Steven's Advice (EX: Hidden Legends 92/101, EX: Power Keepers 83/108). It was a time of Rare Candy working on a Pokémon you just Benched and could thus accelerate Basic to Stage 1 or Stage 2! It was a time of Boost Energy (most recent printing OP Series 5 8/17), Double Rainbow Energy (most recent printing OP Series 5 4/17), and Scramble Energy (most recent printing EX: Dragon Frontiers 89/101). Being able to snag such cards so easily, even if only once per turn, was plenty.

So I must completely disagree with vaporeon's assessment. Pidgeot was too good. Everyone always has the option to run every and any card, unless it is literally so scarce there aren't enough copies. Even taking into account pricing issues, this logic fails. Not every deck will have room for every card, so some decisions must be made.

Pidgeot was what is often referred to as a "loose" staple. A staple is a card every deck runs, however very few cards are "true" staples that virtually every deck either runs or runs maxed out. A "loose" staple can either be a card most decks run but a few don't, or as I am using it in this case, a card that is either run or countered in the vast majority of decks. If you're wondering, since I mean every deck when I say every deck, there will be exceptions: those who can't afford it or stubbornly insist on not running it.

There was an alternative to Pidgeot, and that was Magcargo (EX: Deoxys 20/107), but I never saw it successfully used without also including Battle Frontier (EX: Emerald 75/106, EX: Power Keepers 71/108). It also was much less prominent than Pidgeot. I likely have missed at least some successful decks that ran only one, the other, maybe even neither, but usually the few decks not running Pidgeot had Magcargo with Battle Frontier.

I do not mean to dismiss anyone's skill, but it was a different skill set; a significant aspect of general playing skill was rendered largely unimportant because player's could easily access any one card from the deck a turn, and this in turn increased reliance of a specific section of deck building skill. Skill is still skill, but it really was not fun with how it overpowered certain decks while just giving a slight boost to others, and even less fun when you were given the choice of running something you might enjoy or sticking with the archetypes and staples.

If you want to talk about powerful, then Cyrus's Conspiracy where only one type of deck could use it. We need more cards that work for everything. It would be nice to have a Dark Patch for all energy types.

vaporeon, we've been over this before and you haven't refuted the logic; it isn't being exclusive that automatically "breaks" a card. This is not to say I would consider Cyrus's Conspiracyby any means balanced, just that making it work for all decks just means all decks pretty much have to run it, and all get to be "overpowered".

Think of it like this: back in the day, all decks could choose to run Energy Removal and Super Energy Removal, but some decks could run them better and some decks were less vulnerable to them. The net result was (exact numbers varying based on the time period) a few decks being at the top, a few more being second string, and seemingly everything else a distant third; so distant that truly hopeless or joke decks weren't worth separating out to fourth place. :eek:
 
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Decks like one of my favorites (translation: this is my personal bias), Liability. Still, many decks suffered as Pidgeot enabled rapid-fire recovers for all decks... meaning the top decks just remained the top decks. Coming up with a clever rogue deck or play meant nothing because the next turn a Quick Search and a Supporter usage and your opponent had their next attacker ready to go!

Acid Liability wouldn't have worked or been able to win anything at all without Pidgeot.

Metagross tank decks, a consistent tier 1.5 during that format, also wouldn't have worked at all without Pidgeot.

Pidgeot doesn't stifle creativity, it enables it.
 
Otaku, you have to remember that format spawned like 23 different deck of something like that. The deck I used did not have Pidgeot in it because I only wanted to play legendaries and did not have the space to play one but I still came second at a CC because I out played my opponents.

I want to have that format again where we don't know what will win. Were you see rogue deck all format long do well and not only at worlds. I'd love to have the Pidgeot reprinted right now because so many cards could use it. Sure some decks were powerful with it but its no more powerful then Darkrai Hydreigon and how hard is is to score a KO. The format back then also was not a OHKO format like it is now. The closest we had to war back then was Zapdos ex but players had other deck choices. They were like 10 to 1 vs the decks we have today.

Pidgeot made that happen and was very good for the game.
 
I want to have that format again where we don't know what will win.

Rogue decks did well back in the day because information about what was played was not disseminated over the internet. Empoleon/Accelgor wins a Battle Roads somewhere and the next week everyone around the country has heard about it. That would not be the case just 4 or 5 years ago.
 
On topic: I think Skyla might be pretty powerful in decks using Sableye. With Computer Search and 4 Skyla or something, you can get off a T1 Computer search and if you have Sableye available for Junk Hunt you can continually reuse it. Obviously N will keep it in check but as long as the Computer Search ends up in your deck and not your discard then the Skylas will be there to grab it again. This will be especially useful with Dark Patches because you're able to discard dark energies too (and perhaps search out a Dark Patch simultaneously).



@Otaku

IMO Pidgeot provided us with the most technical era of deck building. We had access to any card in our deck, which was especially useful for 1 of techs. More options available = more skill involved. I have never seen so many 1 of techs in any other format not involving Pidgeot. I thought this was a pretty healthy era of rogue decks too. And so what if it wasn't? Even if it just made the same decks more dominant (and there were many dominant decks), it still increased the skill needed to pilot them because you had more decisions to make. A better player would use their Quick Searches more skillfully than a mediocre player, and given the options available that's a pretty big deal. That said, even the same decks can vary by several cards and 1 of techs.

Also, you're basically saying that Pidgeot helped some decks tremendously, helped others only somewhat, and would even hurt some if they chose to ran it. That's true with any deck and any card in any format, the decks that can't adapt to the new meta are the ones left behind. Does a deck need Pidgeot to win, but can't run it effectively? Then that format wasn't good for that deck. It's not a phenomenon specific to Pidgeot, so I don't get how it's singled out like it destroyed the viability of so many decks (besides the so called dominant ones).

Also, there were definitely effective counters to Pidgeot. Battle Frontier was indeed an effective counter in a deck like Mewtric, Pidgeot couldn't play a counter stadium. Then there was Medicham and Solrock.
 
Rogue decks did well back in the day because information about what was played was not disseminated over the internet. Empoleon/Accelgor wins a Battle Roads somewhere and the next week everyone around the country has heard about it. That would not be the case just 4 or 5 years ago.

No, decks still spread like wildfire back then after winning.
 
Unless I end up posting again before someone else, this is just a notice. In my previous post I had a "wrong word" typo. What originally read:

Playable or functional? The two are not the same thing. My experience was that Pidgeot made the best decks either dominant (extreme end of "playable") or playable and functional... where functional just means that the deck accomplishes its goals other than actually securing a win. Basically, that amounts to setting up and accomplishing any key tactics, whether or not those end up winning you the game or not.

Should have read:

Playable or functional? The two are not the same thing. My experience was that Pidgeot made the best decks either dominant (extreme end of "playable") or dominant and functional... where functional just means that the deck accomplishes its goals other than actually securing a win. Basically, that amounts to setting up and accomplishing any key tactics, whether or not those end up winning you the game or not.

The underlined words are what changed: I wrote "playable" when I meant "dominant", and I think that is what one of Tagrineth's observations was about.

---------- Post added 09/27/2012 at 10:51 AM ----------

Now for a proper response:

I'll resist quoting every little thing; if I use a quote it is mostly as a "jumping on" point so that the counterarguments I make are connected to the correct arguments. First I'll address some relatively simple matters.

psychup2034 is partially correct, and the part that is correct is quite, quite relevant. While players had access to the internet since the game began, it was no where near as good of a resource as it is now. Both the technology and the players reporting information have grown during the course of the game; unless players start intentionally obscuring results, deck lists (especially exact deck lists) are not only more available than before, but that is simply how things will continue to trend; deck lists will continue to become more and more available unless we hit some sort of limit.

They were not unavailable back then, but let us be pretty specific about the time period: Pidgeot was Modified legal from August 30th, 2004 (official release date for EX: FireRed/LeafGreen) until the end of the 2005-2006 Modified season. I don't have an exact date for the official rotation, but the World Championships were on August 10th in 2006 with the next set (EX: Crystal Guardians) releasing on August 30th that same year.

I joined the online Pokémon community either in 2000 or 2001 (probably the latter - that was when I started killing time in the campus Computer Lab between courses). People tried to report deck since before I began, but getting reliable reports was very, very difficult. I have to emphasize this, because as a player who was active at this time (and a bit before and after) I was amazed at how every year, accessing decks gets easier and easier, but if you just joined it is hard to comprehend it wasn't always like that.

The technology has changed; electronic communication devices may be banned while playing (and possibly on the tournament floor), but now a player can jot down some notes and hand them off for someone else to report (or do it her- or himself between rounds). Remember, Twitter is still a novelty. Smart phones in common enough usage to matter are less than five years old. Compare this to someone coming home and either typing a report up after an event (usually while exhausted) or having to wait until the next day, meaning more time to forget details.

We also have better translation options; even restricting to programs that were available at the time, if there is an updated version it would usually be better now than then. This makes getting translations of foreign language deck lists a lot more accurate as well. This is becoming more and more relevant since only recently have I been finding seemingly reliable deck "names" from Japan; including a few lists. That seems pretty new! I suppose I could have just been missing it, but pretty sure it getting thoroughly detailed tournament reports (as in Top 4 per bracket) and often within a few days is a new thing.

Then there are the players themselves; if Pokémon was your first TCG, at best in 2004 you had five full years of experience... unless the tournament was in late December and you began the game with the barely pre-Christimas original, limited run "2-player" starter deck. :wink: A lot of the best players (and excellent sources for articles) were still pretty raw talents (at least in terms of writing) at this time.

The champs who now have taken writing courses in college (or at least honed their craft over the last 13 years) were had eight years less experience back then. Touching back to the internet itself, this was when it was really shaping up into what it is now; so neither kids who had grown up with the less developed internet nor experienced writers were that experienced with the technology either. Still pretty common for people who have been active online for over a decade to not even know all the good "reference" websites, let alone any programming languages (sadly I fit this description).

On top of all of this, players have gotten a lot more laid back about protecting their deck lists. A lot still had the more "Magic" frame of mind where you would pretty much come just shy of physically harming people to keep as much of your deck list a secret as you could; deck secrecy was big usually until a deck was considered obsolete... sometimes that could mean the main players kept their lists secret past the end of a format!

Now people know that not only is it inevitable the details of their winning deck will be compiled from various opponents and a more or less accurate list designed, but they remember that at best they are probably part of the third group of "players" to come up with the deck. Exceptions happen often enough, but generally the play-testers or even card designers come up with a deck idea, then the Japanese players who get the cards several months before us, and lastly the rest of the world.

Even within the "rest of the world" or "English speaking world", back then I'd regularly see players claiming to have originated a deck. I came up with the idea for a "Liability" deck... and learned that I was one of at least dozens also online and from the U.S. I am annoyed because I've forgotten his name and can't find results online, so feel free to disbelieve when I say this, but I helped a English player qualify for Worlds with his (to me) original deck, built around the EX; FireRed/LeafGreenPokémon-ex versions of the Legendary Birds... only to still have random people claiming later that it was their innovation!

Since this post is now long enough, I'll reign it in, but end with the admission that yes, one of the few decks that didn't run either Pidgeot or Magcargo was the Legendary Birds-ex... though at least the version I helped with ran heavy on Stadiums, including a few copies of Battle Frontier to counter Pidgeot.
 
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For as many times as people attempt to N or Juniper currently just to fish for a catcher, switch or other item etc, Skyla is definitely going to prove useful. I'd agree that we're going to see 2-4 in competitive decks as well.
 
Random thought: What about Energy Search? While I have never been a fan of the card and always thought of it as useless, with Skyla maybe it will finally be usable. With Computer Search, Ultra Ball and Energy Search, Skyla could pseudo-search your deck for anything.
 
That's kinda fun to consider, but Energy Search requires space taken in your deck in a format where space is already at a premium.
 
I figured that too, I was just thinking how nice it would be to have a supporter that could get me anything.
 
Energy Search does actually see some play; mainly decks that are better served by "shrinking" themselves by one card than trying to work another strategy in, and with Sableye.
 
Skyla will make Ace Spec cards other than Computer Search viable, possibly even better than CS, since Skyla + Ultra Ball can search for any important card in your deck, save for Energies. Having a 5th card (Computer Search) that can search your Deck seems unnecessary when your Ace Spec slot could be used for something more important, like Scramble Switch, or even avoiding a Knock Out with Gold Potion. I'm sure other Ace Spec cards will be made later on that will be even more important. I could see myself running several 1-of Trainers with 4 Skyla.

Skyla will be great for the game; there should be more focus on toolbox engines than plain draw engines.
 
Your assumption is that people want to max out Skyla. Some do, others don't. Computer Search basically lets me run a 59 card deck. That is its appeal. Scramble Switch is a set later, though I agree it does look good. Gold Potion seems wasteful since you can Scramble Switch followed by a Max Potion; unless you don't have a second good attacker ready to go, it is a better strategy.

As a matter of personal opinion, I find Toolboxes aren't the best representation of skill when you can easily fish out pieces for them. There are many aspects of skill in playing the Pokémon TCG. There is skill in designing your deck. There is skill in playing your deck. There is skill in analyzing and anticipating the metagame. There is skill in analyzing and anticipating your immediate opponent. When you can quite, quite easily get TecH out of your deck, you maybe upping the skill in designing the deck and anticipating the metagame, but at the cost of reducing the needed skill to play your deck and anticipate your current opponent.

Skyla, since she is limited to four copies and you're giving up your shot at mass draw in a card hungry format, should not cause the above concern.
 
Why not just Ultra Ball, Heavy Ball, or Pokémon Communication a Hydreigon... since, you know, you'd probably need a search Trainer for the Roserade anyway?
 
Your assumption is that people want to max out Skyla. Some do, others don't. Computer Search basically lets me run a 59 card deck. That is its appeal. Scramble Switch is a set later, though I agree it does look good. Gold Potion seems wasteful since you can Scramble Switch followed by a Max Potion; unless you don't have a second good attacker ready to go, it is a better strategy.

You would only use Gold Potion until Scramble Switch is released, though I admit, Gold Potion isn't as good as I was thinking it was at the time. :redface:

Unless the deck absolutely must use a draw Supporter every turn, I don't really see why people wouldn't max out on Skyla. It is basically Computer Search as a Supporter, with the bonus of not discarding 2 cards if you just search for a Trainer. I understand people are hesitant to not use their draw Supporters, but I can bet you at least half of the time, you'd rather A) Add any 1 card from your deck to your hand, as opposed to B) Lose your cards in-hand and draw 6-7 cards. At least that's how I feel during a game.

As a matter of personal opinion, I find Toolboxes aren't the best representation of skill when you can easily fish out pieces for them. There are many aspects of skill in playing the Pokémon TCG. There is skill in designing your deck. There is skill in playing your deck. There is skill in analyzing and anticipating the metagame. There is skill in analyzing and anticipating your immediate opponent. When you can quite, quite easily get TecH out of your deck, you maybe upping the skill in designing the deck and anticipating the metagame, but at the cost of reducing the needed skill to play your deck and anticipate your current opponent.

Skyla, since she is limited to four copies and you're giving up your shot at mass draw in a card hungry format, should not cause the above concern.

In defense of the Toolbox, Toolboxes aren't just about fishing out the piece you need; it's about knowing when to fish those pieces out. Whenever you have a card in hand to search a large portion of your deck with, you may be tempted to use it when you see a good chance; but as soon as you use it, you no longer can search your deck, and you now have less control over your opponent's future actions. You have to think whether or not the advantage you gain at the moment is worth losing the vast amount of options you would have later in the game had you kept the search card in hand. (Of course, if the end of the game is quickly approaching, this choice becomes easier.)

If the toolbox is too powerful, then every deck would be the same, and creativity in deck building would then suffer (with the exception of TecH choices), but almost always there would still be significant skill in the actual gameplay.
 
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