The 4 Steps of a Player's Turn

Discussion in 'TCG News & Gossip Discussion' started by PokeDaddy, Oct 9, 2007.

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  1. PokeDaddy

    PokeDaddy New Member

    There seems to be some confusion and inconsistency as to how to handle an attack by which you do not have the required energy. That is, I declare Prinplup's Brine (WW) and only have enough for Aqua Shower (W). What are my options?

    I have included a full description of the "steps" of a Player's Turn to aid in this discussion.

    Hopefully this will help players, judges, and TOs alike.



    Per the rulebook, the game is split into 4 "steps";

    1) Draw a card.

    2) Do any of the following:
    > Put Basic Pokémon on the Bench (as many as you want).
    > Evolve Pokémon (As many as you want).
    > Attach 1 Energy card to 1 of your Pokémon (only once per turn).
    > Play Trainer cards (As many as you want, bot only one Stadium and one Supporter card per turn).
    > Retreat your Active Pokémon (only once per turn).
    > Use Poke-Powers (as many as you want).

    3) Attack!
    > Check to make sure that you have enough Energy attached to your Active Pokémon to attack.
    > Check Weakness and Resistance of your opponent's Pokémon.
    > Put damage counters on your opponent's Pokémon.
    > Check to see if you Knocked Out your opponent's Pokémon.
    > Take a Prize card (if you Knocked Out your opponent's Pokémon).

    4) Your turn is over now (also known as "between turns").

    If an action is mandatory (i.e. draw a card at the beginning of your turn, take a prize for knocking out a Pokémon, place damage counters for an attack, etc.), and you forget to take that action, you do not need your opponent's permission to do it. However, you should immediately call a judge so that things don't get muddled.

    If an action is optional (playing a Trainer, attaching an Energy, attacking your opponent's Pokémon, etc.), and you forget to take that action, you must ask your opponent for permission to take that action. For example, if you attach a Grass Energy to your Pokémon, and you wanted to attach a Fire Energy, you must ask your opponent's permission to take back the Grass Energy and attach the Fire energy instead. If he or she says no, you're stuck with the Grass Energy.

    While it is mandatory to proceed through both step 2) and step 3), the actions in those steps are optional. You can choose not to attach an Energy card. You can choose not to play a Trainer. You can choose not to attack the defending Pokémon. However, once you have entered one of these steps, you cannot rewind to a previous step without your opponent's permission.

    In other words, once you've entered step 3), you cannot leave it without your opponent's permission. If you declare an "illegal" attack, you may ask your opponent if you can back out of step 3). If he or she says yes, you go back to step 2) and can take any actions that you could have taken during that step. If he or she says no, you may either select an attack that is "legal" or pass.

    Most often a rewound game state is due to mandatory game actions that were not taken (i.e. placing damage counters for an attack or effect).
  2. Prof Clay

    Prof Clay New Member

    Hey Steve!!

    If the player enters Step 3 and declares an attack they do not have the energy, they may stay in Step 3 and declare a different attack that they may have the energy. If they cannot do an attack based on their energy, then they pass

    You are correct in saying the opposing player can choose to allow them to go back to a previous Step.

    Clay Mitchell
  3. Prime

    Prime Content Developer<br>Blog Admin<br>Contest Host

    So you are saying that since drawing a card is mandatory, if I forget to, I can remember it and do it at any time during my turn before I attack? That seems wrong. People could purposely forget to draw a card, then play something like a team galaxy's wager, lose it, and then remember to draw the card for their turn.
  4. PokeDaddy

    PokeDaddy New Member

    Clay: I think we are saying the same thing. Nice hearing from you. Steve
    "In other words, once you've entered step 3), you cannot leave it without your opponent's permission. If you declare an "illegal" attack, you may ask your opponent if you can back out of step 3). If he or she says yes, you go back to step 2) and can take any actions that you could have taken during that step. If he or she says no, you may either select an attack that is "legal" or pass."

    Prime: I guess that's called gaming/cheating isn't it? There are rules that apply for that. I think in the case described, any judge worth their salt would smell a rat. It's the player's responsibility to raise their hand.
  5. Prof Clay

    Prof Clay New Member

    Since being "decked" is a win/loss scenario, then you always have to draw your opening card of your turn. But, each circumstance should be considered before making a final determination. Your example of team galaxy's wager would most likely result in a warning and since the card would require the entire hand to be reshuffled and redrawn, I would judge they do not get to draw the extra card. Good for discussion though.

    Clay Mitchell
  6. Lawman

    Lawman Active Member

    Matt: The player would not get an extra card to draw after the TGW has been played. It is a wash at that moment bc whatever card they were supposed to have drawn would be sent right back into the deck for shuffling. You then either win or lose the TGW and draw up to 6 (win) or 3 (lose).

    The only time it would matter is if the player couldn't draw to start their turn, meaning a loss state for that player. That would be gaming the system and would be dealt with penalties.

  7. Diaz

    Diaz New Member

    I don't think that
    is quite right.

    Between turns does not count as a part of your turn. If time ends on your turn, the in between turns effects are not counted. If time is called, attacking ends your turn, once all effects of the attack are finished then the game ends and whoever is ahead on prizes wins.
    There seems to be a contradiction in rulings. To determine what order "between turns" effects happen, the rules say that the player whos turn just ended makes the choice, as though it were part of thier turn. BUT, if the time is called durring thier turn, the "between turns" effects dont count.
    What if time is called between turns? Does the player whos turn it is becoming get to have thier turn, or does the game end after between turn effects apply?
    If the player does get to have thier turn, then it would seem like "between turns" is part of thier turn, and they should be able to determin what order the "between turns" effects happen.
    If the player does not get thier turn then it would seem that "between turns" is part of the first players turn, and that these "between turn" effects should be applyed at the end of a game in which time is called.
  8. PokeDaddy

    PokeDaddy New Member

    Frankie -

    You are right in most regards. I think that you took the "between turns" as written. It means that your turn ends and you enter the between turns phase.

    These are clearly called out in the rules.

  9. Magic_Umbreon

    Magic_Umbreon Researching Tower Scientist, Retired

    So in some ways, it would be true to say that pokémon's handling of phases is not at all disimilar to MtG or yu-gi-oh.

    Draw phase
    Main phase
    Attack phase
    Calculation phase
    End phase
    Between turn phase

    No seriously, think about it.
  10. DarkMagnus

    DarkMagnus New Member

    MU is right the fact that some of the older players that have played Said games with Phases and there Ignorance of those phases is just sloppy. is a basic rule of the game that is in all basic starter rule books going back to base.
  11. PokePop

    PokePop Administrator

    It was actually a huge topic of discussion last season amonst the judges and TOs and didn't get resolved until partway through last season.
    So I wouldn't blame players.
    You can't always extropolate from one game to another.
    Often it is dangerous to do so.
  12. DarkMagnus

    DarkMagnus New Member

    True pop but isn't there in the Base set rule book a Clearly defined steps/phases writen in it? when Wotc made the game ( not sure if designed is the word i want) it is hard to belive that they wouldn't have done so
  13. PokePop

    PokePop Administrator

    First off, WotC did not design the game.
    If they had, they would have had definite steps or phases.
    Since they didn't, applying how things work from their other games is inappropriate.

    Yes, steps are written in the rule book and, as noted, it has been ruled by PUI this year that they do represent steps in the game that cannot be rewound back into without the opponent's consent, but I will stand by my statement that not assuming without direction from PUI that such was the case is not sloppy.
    I've seen assumptions made about a lot of things in this game over the years and sometimes argued the side that was eventually ruled correct, sometimes the other.
    I can say that a lot of the time, I have no idea what side it's going to come down onto!
    I am just saying not to disparage those that took the opposite side (that they're sloppy or ignorant) when it really could have gone the other way.
    You never know when you're going to be the one arguing the side that loses.

    Heck, I can even think of a number of cases where the company running things here (WotC AND PUI) have said "such and such is to be done this way" only to have that reversed at a later date! You just never know!
  14. PokeDaddy

    PokeDaddy New Member

    Pop and DarkMagnus -

    Pop, thanks for keeping things in perspective. DarkMagnus' choice of words could have been a little less harsh but I will tell you his heart and energy are in the right place.

    DarkMagnus, your passion and knowledge of this game (and many, many others) will only serve to raise Pokemon OP to higher levels. You know, it's just sometimes how you say things you Ditto. :biggrin:

  15. Magic_Umbreon

    Magic_Umbreon Researching Tower Scientist, Retired

    Is there really a right or wrong way to do things? As long as everyone is given the same treatment and there is no inconsistency of rulings then who loses out?
  16. PokeDaddy

    PokeDaddy New Member

    Fortunately or Unfortunately, there is a "correct" way to do play one's turn.

    The step/phase approach is a major step in the correct direction for consistency of game play.

    When higher order Events occur, these steps are vital.
  17. PokePop

    PokePop Administrator

    It becomes important for there to be a consistancy across multiple events and levels of events.
    Yes, you are correct that in a lot of cases it's not so important that the rulings be 100% absolutely correct. What is more important is that consistancy. Not just within one event, but over all OP.
    You want little Jimmy who has been playing a certain way all year in Poduck to not get surprised when he's told he's wrong and getting a penalty because now he's playing in the Regional Championship and its done differently there.
  18. mumsascrappa

    mumsascrappa Active Member

    Consistency of game play methods is definitely important, even down to set up and start up. I've been working with some of the new leaguers on just this information! Thanks for opening up this discussion. It has been very helpful!
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