The Case for EON Format

Discussion in 'TCG News & Gossip Discussion' started by Broken Lizard, Sep 17, 2003.

8 league13 468 60
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Broken Lizard

    Broken Lizard New Member

    As PUI prepares to launch it's main OP programs at the beginning of October, one question has players hanging in suspense: What will the new Modified Format be?

    Despite a number of opinions and assertive claims as to PUI's plans, we clearly don't know what the format will be. In one of his posts, MTJimmer hinted that *someone might be listening* to our wishes. Perhaps then it is not too late to look at the two most likely possibilities in more depth. Some suggest that the format include cards from Expedition on (EON), while others favor R/S on (EXON)

    By now we all know that the two new EX sets contain a lot of excellent Pokémon to use in our decks. However, the trainers and special energies are a far different story. Trainers can be divided into different groups, based on broad functional categories. These categories are shown below. The cards printed in blue are available in the EON Format, while those in orange are available in both EON and EXON.


    Recursion/Recovery:
    Power Charge (Exp)
    Super Scoop Up (Exp)
    Time Shard (AQ)
    Town Volunteers (AQ)
    Undersea Ruins (AQ, Stadium)
    Power Plant (AQ, Stadium)
    Fisherman (SK)
    Lure Ball (SK)
    Underground Lake (SK, Stadium)

    Energy Restore (Exp, R/S)

    Disruption:
    Super Energy Removal 2 (AQ)
    Desert Shaman (SK)
    Mirage Stadium (SK, Stadium)

    Energy Removal 2 (Exp, R/S)

    Healing:
    Full Heal (Exp)
    Moo-Moo Milk (Exp)
    Pokémon Nurse (Exp)
    Healing Berry (AQ)
    Pokémon Park (AQ, Stadium)
    Hyper Potion (SK)

    Lum Berry (R/S)
    Oran Berry(R/S)
    Potion (Exp, R/S)
    Double Full Heal (SS)


    Positional Control:
    Warp Point (Exp)
    Energy Switch (AQ)

    Pokémon Reversal (Exp, R/S))
    Switch (Exp, R/S)


    Search:
    Dual Ball (Exp)
    Master Ball (Exp)
    Professor Elm’s Training Method (Exp)
    Apricorn Forest (AQ, Stadium)
    Forest Guardian (AQ)
    Pokémon Fan Club (AQ)
    Seer (AQ)
    Traveling Salesman (AQ)
    Relic Hunter (SK)
    Apricorn Maker (SK)
    Fast Ball (SK)
    Fisherman (SK)
    Mystery Zone (SK, Stadium)
    Oracle (SK)
    Star Piece (SK)

    Pokeball (R/S)
    Pokenav (R/S)
    Lady Outing (R/S)
    Energy Search (Exp, R/S)
    Lanette's Net Search (SS)
    Wally's Training (SS)



    Draw:
    Bill’s Maintenance (Exp)
    Copycat (Exp)
    Mary’s Impulse (Exp)
    Professor Oak’s Research (Exp)
    Juggler (AQ)
    Ancient Ruins (SK, Stadium)
    Underground Expedition (SK)

    Professor Birch (R/S)

    Attack:

    Multi Technical Machine 01 (Exp)
    Strength Charm (Exp)
    Fighting Cube 01 (AQ)
    Darkness Cube 01 (AQ)
    Fire Cube 01 (AQ)
    Grass Cube 01 (AQ)
    Lightning Cube 01 (AQ)
    Memory Berry (AQ)
    Metal Cube 01 (AQ)
    Psychic Cube 01 (AQ)
    Water Cube 01 (AQ)
    Crystal Shard (SK)
    Miracle Sphere Alpha (SK)
    Miracle Sphere Beta (SK)
    Miracle Sphere Gamma (SK)
    Mystery Plate Alpha (SK)
    Mystery Plate Beta (SK)
    Mystery Plate Gamma (SK)
    Mystery Plate Delta (SK)


    Defense/Evolution:

    Weakness Guard (AQ)
    Rare Candy (SS)

    Special Energy*:
    Crystal Energy (AQ)
    Warp Energy (AQ)
    Bounce Energy (SK)
    Cyclone Energy (SK)
    Retro Energy (SK)

    Rainbow Energy (AQ, R/S)
    Multi Energy (SS)


    *Metal and Darkness Energies not included because, since there will always be Pokémon of those types, these will be rereleased and available in EVERY official format.

    When looking at this list, it becomes immediately obvious that the available tainers and special energies in EXON Format are extremely limited, so much so that many strategies are no longer available. In fact, the limited search and draw power virtually guarantees that the EXON Format would be dominated by Ex-BBP's and a few quick stage 1 Pokémon. By the time the opponent found her evolutions, the game would already be lost! Basically, the single winning strategy would be the simplest and least interesting: "straight beatdown". In short, this format would be boring.

    Conversely, EON Format allows a far richer metagame environment. The strategies employed would be far more diverse. The game would be more fun and more interesting. It would therefore generate more excitement and attract more players!

    Now, some will say that PUI/Nintendo will focus on immediate gain, and be unwilling to allow cards that do not directly generate higher profits. After all, WotC has already paid its fees to produce the Expedition, Aquapolis and Skyridge sets. Any further purchases of those cards would not add to Nintendo/PUI's bottom line.

    Some will say that the WotC sets have limited availability, thus disadvantaging newer players. This may be somewhat true, but in reality those sets are still available on the market, and trading can easily fix the problem (this is a Trading Card Game!). Players can always buy newer cards, and use those to trade for any older cards they may need.

    That said, I think PUI will be look beyond the surface economics. After all, Expedition, Aquapolis and Skyridge are less than a year old! Players who have stuck with this game through the transition should be rewarded for their loyalty to the brand. Many younger players can not afford many cards at once, and have slowly amassed cards using their allowance money. Is it really fair to tell them that they can no longer use cards purchased less than a year ago in the big 'Premier Tourneys'?!

    I maintain that the damage to player goodwill would far outweigh any short term profit boost from the exclusionof the WotC cards.

    Clearly, players will need to buy the Nintendo sets to remain competitive: just look at all the 'must have' new Pokémon!

    In the end, it seems clear: EON Format is the fair way, the right way, the smart way to go. EON will help retain players and recruit new ones. The format would be good for players, and in the end good for Nintendo/PUI and the game itself.

    [edit: Edited to fix mistakes...had problems cutting and pasting. My original point remains unchanged.]
     
    Last edited: Sep 18, 2003
  2. Baboon

    Baboon New Member

    Very well said. If EX-on is made the chosen format, it would quite possibly turn into what some people dislike about Unlimited- identical Trainer engine and quick beatdowns.

    E-on, while it does have a sufficient amount of searching and so on, it does NOT have that much of a surplus, so there's no reason to jump past it.

    Basically, EX-on games would be all the same, with the exception of the main Pokemon, of course. I've played in EX-on, and I don't know if it was the decks I and my opponent were using, or if it truly was the format itself, but it was very boring.

    And one last agreement- this is another thing I said first off... The short term boost for Nintendo's profits would NOT by any means compensate for the loss of a number of players. While one could argue that they'll only lose the players that weren't that dedicated, you can also look at it this way: people don't have infinite money. Making the jump to EX-on right now would force people into upgrading their collection this instant, rather than allowing them to use their E-cards until they can buy newer cards. E-cards, in my opinion are STILL everywhere. It's not like you're trying to find a first edition Base set pack. You're finding packs of things released just months ago!

    Sorry that I basically just reiterated Broken Lizard, but it is all true.

    [Edit: Just remembered something. There is always the possibility of two Modifieds. I wouldn't like it that much, as they'd prolly make Worlds, etc. all EX-on, but it would be better than 100% EX-on.]
     
    Last edited: Sep 17, 2003
  3. ShadowOfTyranitar

    ShadowOfTyranitar New Member

    re

    Very good article.
     
  4. Otaku

    Otaku Active Member

    Psst... you missed something

    Rainbow Energy is card #95/109.

    I think it is so cool you have a spoiler for the upcoming Nintendo Promos and EX Dragons... oh wait, you don't? Then you don't know if the next set, due almost immidiately after the format is announced, could contain what we "need" to add a touch of speed and diversify our options? The format will be announced, what, mid-to-late October, and the next set is out early to mid-November?

    This post sums up the best argument for why the new Modified format would be "E-on"... however, like the argument for Exon, it is not conclusive. Exon would, afterall, explain the rushed sets better.

    I will prepare for either.
     
    Last edited: Sep 17, 2003
  5. Tyranitar666

    Tyranitar666 New Member

    I am 100% against Exon, because as Lizard said, the gameplay is boring. Remember Hitmonchan Buzz decks that dominated in base set only? Or perhaps Raindance? Lets take away Raindance and just add basics now. Its THAT bad. Every deck will use the same cards. Over on Poke-Neo, we had a short period of time where we worked on what we thought would be the best decks, and we basically determined it would be decks that run...

    4 skitty
    4 delcatty
    4 mewtwo
    4 magmar

    energy and than trainers. Trainers will be dropped for Delcattys, and whoever gets Delcatty out first wins. The BBPs are very small in variation as well. Lapras is NOT a good counter for Magmar, so Magmar is of course one of the top choices. Mewtwo is just broken as well. Anyone who thinks that they can make a deck that can compete vs a quick hay in that format is wrong. The closest I have come to a strong evo deck is Blaziken, and while I can get it to work, a Hay is just much more consistant every game. Sharpedo hay also is amazing as it has quick damage and cand eal with Magmar.

    Now to the " Well, what about the next set " idea. First off, unless you get a draw card BETTER than Birch, and a LOT of good trainers, you wont get anything beating the basics. I dont care HOW good they make the evolutions. I dont care what they do to counter the BBPs they unleashed. They are TOO strong for anything to beat with the current trainers. Its not just SLIGHTLY unbalanced in draw power. It is VASTLY unbalanced. As in, to a point where one set cannot recover everything. The ONLY way they could save it is to reprint a LOT of promos. As in, get Elm back in. It is NEEDED. Something besides Birhc, which is just BAD.

    Id say its an even toss up as to what they do. I see Exon being HORRIBLE for the game, but part of me seems confident it will be used. Im PLEADING with anyone who has a say who may read thsi NOT to make that mistake. We have started some playtesting, and it is UGLY. VERY ugly. You cannot survive without better draw. ( I am prepared for either...I have my 4 Delcattys...har har... )
     
  6. GymLeaderPhil

    GymLeaderPhil New Member

    Early October for formats... with sanctioning.
    -Phil
     
  7. dkates

    dkates New Member

    Like was said earlier, no deck other than a BBP deck can survive without Draw Power and Deck Searching. Disruption is also a necessity, as is Healing. Discard Rescue is also all but indispensible. Note a theme? Other than Disruption and Healing, all of these necessities involve moving cards around. Disruption and Healing turn the game from pure offense (bad) to a combination of offense and defense (good). In other words, without these five abilities, the game is nothing more than a race to get your big attacker going. That kind of game I would never play. I got into the game for the strategy, and I'm staying in only because there is still strategy. If Modified becomes Exxon, then I will never break my record of never having played Modified. It is as simple as that.
     
  8. Pidgeotto Trainer

    Pidgeotto Trainer New Member

    Broken Lizard's list make it obvious
    There are not enough Orange! I mean trainers.
    We need more than Birch, we shouldn't make everyone play Wally's Training and Lanette's Net Search. To make the best trainer engines are all gonna be the same and still not that fast. Exon is viable as soon as they release some more viable trainers. There are too many good things in Expedition-Skyridge that will get their chance to shine w/out those Neo pokemon/trainers. Eon is a new format that deserves it's time. In the supporter dominated world you will see many cards for the first time. Maybe those Cubes will see some more play. Maybe people will use those odd trade energy for pokemon type stadiums with all the supporters. Who knows what pokemon will surface in this format? Rs & Sandstorm still impact it greatly. The Ex pokemon will be an entirely new thing for constructed tournaments. There are many pokemon that will influence Eon with just Sandstorm and probably Dragons. (Anybody who went to Gencon knows the impact Sky Beedrill made on Neon within 2 monts of it's release.)
    Eon should not be skipped. Rs-on is not ready. Rson will be right on schedule with probably 4+ sets by next summer. Perhaps to change the format right before a Worlds like Wizards did? It's EON time.
     
  9. RaNd0m

    RaNd0m New Member

    Ok obviously I will be the first (and possibly only) to oppose your reasoning Broken Lizard.

    Although you make great points, you're wrong. E-On is NOT the best format for the game, and it's most likely one of the worst. You make it out like new players will be thrilled to have 500+ cards extra that they're unaware of in a format... They won't be. It'll discourage them from joining. Also, you haven't played RS-on enough to realize that it's a different type of game. I think RS-on makes the game the way it was meant to be played, much more slowly, and with much more skill.

    T-Tar, Sandstorm changes everything. That deck doesn't work anymore, I've tried it, it's lost it's usefulness. With all the new quick ex stage 1's out, and with rare candy, you don't win like that anymore.

    There are multiple good decks in the new format, and it is a GREAT format. I think Nintendo would be ill-advised to choose Expedition On, because that doesn't allow the game to grow.

    We're too small of a number to continue this game ourselves, folks. We need extra people, or the brand will fail.

    Btw, T-Tar, I just realized. THINK what Rare Candy does to Beedrill in unlimited? Rare Candy Weedle to Beedrill, Lass, DCE, gg. "OOPS FOLD"

    ~ RaNd0m
     
    Last edited: Sep 17, 2003
  10. bulbasnore

    bulbasnore Administrator Staff Member Trader Feedback Mod

    Don't make me throw out the cards I bought this year to play in Premier OP Constructed and local OP modified.

    The past practice has been 1 year plus of life. If some people like an environment of Ex-on (you know who you are ;-)) then just have some nice tourneys with that format, limited or otherwise.

    The point about the richness of the play environment has been better made by others, but it is definitely much better (opinion) with e-On and will remain so past Dragon.

    Random, if the new management doesn't bring the old players along, there will be no game. But, bring the old players along and they'll trade play cards with the new players buying R/S packs. Expedition, Aquapolis and even Skyridge are still there at Target. There is no collapse by including cards from the last year's releases. History bears this out, time and again.

    Cutting the premiere OP and modified constructed environments to the last 3 months of cards is the new and DANGEROUS experiment.

    I don't expect this from the folks who have brought 15+ back to the game, grandfathered the old professors and STRESSED the COMPATIBILITY of the new cards with the old (to encourage me to buy them). I just don't see it and in Oct 2003, it would be wrong.
     
  11. RaNd0m

    RaNd0m New Member

    How many do you actually think are going to quit? Come on, you're not going to quit over a format, and if you did, you're not a very big part of the population. And how do you know Nintendo has brought 15+ back? We know nothing of the sort. All we know is that 15+ was allowed in their prerelease tourney and the rs challenge. :-\

    ~ RaNd0m
     
  12. dkates

    dkates New Member

    I never said I'd quit, just that I wouldn't play Modified. Big difference. I won't quit the whole game over a format that I STILL might not ever play.
     
  13. ukpokemonpro

    ukpokemonpro New Member

    The list also seems incomplete surely Lady outing counts as Search and I for one think RSon would make sense for Nintendo come November(ish)

    We'll have 3 sets then .. okay you in the states will have 3 sets then we may have .. who knows? And the extra trainers in the card pool plus the powers and attacks will make for a different but still very enjoyable game.

    For the moment the message is play what you like and your players like.

    But in the UK we are switching to Eon from October 1st and RSon sometime in 2004 for our major tourneys.. who tells us that ... well we do, our tourneys, our choice..
     
  14. NoPoke

    NoPoke New Member

    • At some point in the future the format will be RSON (EXON)
    • With every day that passes the EXON format draws nearer.
    • With every day that pases the Eon era shortens.

    No amount of complaining about EXon changes its inevitability. It WILL happen. Maybe not tomorrow, maybe not next week, maybe not next month. But it WILL happen.

    Just because RSON doesn't contain lots of trainers doesn't make it unplayable. A little slower as many of the attacks serve instead of trainers. If anything RSON may be a more strategic format to play just because we can't let the trainers take the strain. The only fly in the RSon ointment is having a bad opening hand: this can be fixed in tournament play with an Intentional Muligan. We are already moving towards this with it being your choice if a fossil trainer is to be considered a basic or not in your initial draw.


    I anticipate that R&S will have been out more than a year by the time we have Worlds next year... It is likely that it will be a year old when we have qualifiers.

    If you want to play E-on then JUST DO IT.

    Modified should have been Eon Eons ago ;)
     
    Last edited: Sep 18, 2003
  15. Tego

    Tego New Member

    Of course 15+ is back. There'll be 15+ at WORLDS.

     
  16. PokePop

    PokePop Administrator

    Yeah, but there's a HUGE difference between it happening next month with two sets in the format versus it happening in a year from now with about 5 or 6 sets in the format.
     
  17. NoPoke

    NoPoke New Member

    But Pop the format only matters when it is specified for a tournament. League play and casual play have never had particular formats proscribed.

    What would happen if PUI annonce that modified is to be RS-(EX)ON next week? Not a lot unless there was a major tournament comming up soon. It certainly won't stop all those players who currently play unlimited from continuing to do so. Nor should it prevent anyone from playing whatever format they enjoy.

    PUI could easily go with suggesting formats in their league kits rather than declaring a NEW modified.

    So in terms of how a format announcement will effect play at league level I don't see ANY announcement having much impact until we have qualifiers for worlds also in place.
     
  18. Otaku

    Otaku Active Member

    Okay, Big bad basics never dominated Exon (Nintendo-only) anyway. I tried it. Wanna know what happened? If I was fortunate and my opponent didn't have a deck that I was weak against, I still had to try and hurry and KO them: otherwise, I might "eat" two basics, but then my Pokemon ex was slaughtered by an evo, and then the cycle repeats, only the have a big bad evo ready to nuke my Pokemon ex if it shows up. In other words, a deck that focuses on a few Pokemon ex can work, but it needs plenty of support, so much that you might as well run an evo line in its place. The exception is if you try to run a "potpourri" deck, in which case it is about as good as the average evo deck. This was pre-Sandstrom, but for all those nifty "grab a basic" cards, we have Rare Candy, which simply jacks up most evos to a level where the other Big Bad Basics are just kinda... bad, unless they have a large amount of support, which menas its no longer just a mindless beatdown.

    This brings us to another point: beatdown has always been the dominant deck in Pokemon. Now, beatdown is not always mindless, but it is often... hidebound. They may add a few cards to such a deck, but it is a beatdown, and remains a beatdown. What was 'Gatr? Beatdown: you threw energy away then mindlessly pummeled your opponent. Did it require skill? Yes. Was it that intricate? No. Skill mainly was managing your resources and recovering from a bad set up... or countering a counter-deck. This was true of Haymaker. This is still true of most Sneasel-variants. When the formats changed, 'Gatr finally was a somewhat stargetical beatdown, as one risked depleting their deck (in the common "Gatersect" decks). OTher slugers came out though. Encargo is very similar to how 'Gatr was: skill required was mostly resource management. Now, if we go to Eon, well, most of use can acknowlegde that the Pokemon ex cards become quite viscious then. Why? Pokemon Nurse. Super Scoop Up. This was bad enough when we were worried about basics. With the evos, some nasty tricks can be done. Every deck will probably ahve to run an ex counter of some sort. If we go Nintendo only, then the Big Bad Basics lose their Trainer support advantage... and thus some semblance of balance is formed. Not perfect... but better than it could be.

    So what about the WotC E-sets? I plan on trying to encourage block format play amongst the players at our local League. That seems to be the best answer. It will require work, but looks to be very rewarding. Somewhere I was informed that the different set "blocks" were supposed to be played as separate games in Japan. Whether or not this is true, doing so seems to level the playing field in many regards... okay, just for E-block and maybe Gym... but I am playing with ideas to bring the same to Base-Rocket and Neon... those two groups seem to go together, at least better than most others.

    And LotC still hasn;t added Rainbow to the energies for Nintendo only. -_-
     
  19. TheDeuce

    TheDeuce New Member

    First off, Broken Lizard, you also forgot Metal Energy, Darkness Energy, Oran Berry, and Lum Berry. Oh, and you have Wally's Training on there twice...

    Including those last 2 berries, Exxon currently gives us a total of 16 trainers (EX: Dragons looks to give us 7 more) Out of those 16 trainers, there is one, only one drawing card... and it's a mediocre card at that... You just can't have a format without solid draw power, then the game becomes not Pokémon, not Supportermon, but something even worse... (Yu-Gi-Oh! :x) The game becomes something based solely on draws. 5 turns into the game, if you get your Wally's Training before your opponent, now you've got Wailord ex out against your opponent's Ralts, who's gonna end up winning that game? No strategy involved, just the luck of the draw... "I draw my Delcatty first, I win!"

    Although, I doubt anyone will leave the game based on what format is chosen, if Exxon is chosen, I know a lot of people will be really upset about the format, since quite frankly, Exxon is just straight out boring, every game turns out the same, 5-10 turns into the game one of the players draws his/her evolution or Wally's Training (Or to a lesser extent, Pokéball). After that it's pretty much over, the other player can't ever catch back up, with no drawing and minimal searching how are they supposed to?

    Finally, as for getting the older cards to newer players, I don't even see this as a problem, it's not like the older E-Cards are in short supply... I mean the place I go for league still sells Neo2 packs... Worst comes to worst, I know there's a ton of people like myself who went to GenCon/Origins and could pretty much give any new player, who wants to play modified, a couple of Copycats, Elms, and Oracles for a deck, getting a hold of the older E-Sets shouldn't be a problem.

    For Worlds and all the big stuff which most likely won't be for quite a while, Exxon should be fine, there'll be a bigger card pool, more trainers, and (hopefully), a better quality of trainers, but for now Eon is clearly the best choice...
     
  20. farbsman

    farbsman New Member

    I would rather it be Legendary Collection and on. This would give us TO's the set we need for sealed drafts and give players that haven't played in a while the opportunity to play with some of there old cards. Since Legendary collection came out right before Expedition, it would be a Eon format plus legendary. I mean, look at all the trainers in that set!!

    Unless of course PUI actually puts out the Legendary Collection 2 set.
     
    Last edited: Sep 18, 2003
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page