the failure of sceptile ge

Discussion in 'Cards: Strategy and Rulings Discussion' started by revdjweb, May 28, 2008.

  1. revdjweb

    revdjweb New Member

    IMO sceptile ge is turning into one of those cards that looks great, i mean archetype great, but in practice it just doesn't make the cut. when it came out i thought it was the prevalence of fire decks (magmortar, skittles) which kept sceptile/tangrowth from succeeding. but now with the new set and fire more on parity with water decks, which theoretically should only be to sceptile's advantage, it still isn't working, not even with leafeon/sceptile, and this disappoints me a great deal.

    i think it is a combination of small factors which coalesce to undermine sceptile decks effectiveness. i think the 100hp and 3 retreat cost are both a little low and a little too high respectively. if it had 110hp and a 2 retreat cost it would be much more sniper proof and would be able to retreat for the cost of a single grass energy. alas this is not the case.
    a more subtle failure is built into the very thing which potentially could make it great, sceptile's Wild Growth poke-body. Wild Growth is very powerful but very limiting and this is the crux of the problem. any deck anticipating taking advantage of Wild Growth won't want to run any energy other than basic grass. likewise, since sceptile is only an average attacker whatever other line of pokemon which sceptile is operating in support of will have to be a grass line which likely means all fire weakness as well as limited viable options. so these two factors mean that odds are sceptile decks won't be running any of the very advantageous special energies (call, DRE, scramble) nor any other pokemon which could help accelerate set up (claydol, furret, etc.). couple these disadvantages with the fact that sceptile is a stage 2 and it's subordinate forms are totally useless until it becomes sceptile and i think you can see why the cumulative effect is so ineffective.

    there may be people who will argue that leafeon/sceptile is viable, but i think leafeon lvl x can achieve the same effect (boosted damage from the number of energies in play) with DREs and scrambles with any non-grass line. maybe after worlds when those energies are rotated out then leafeon/sceptile will finally get its' chance. but right now sceptile reminds me of another great grass pokemon failure: dragonite ex df.
     
    Last edited: May 28, 2008
  2. meganium45

    meganium45 Active Member

    I don't think it's that toreterrible.

    I can think of one Pokemon that is destined to work with it (60 for 1 grass with Scept)

    100 for 2?

    Level up and GOW!

    Hmmm..who's that Pokemon?

    Vince
     
  3. Phazon Elite

    Phazon Elite New Member

    Obviously Bob Dole.

    The problem with Sceptile is that there's always a very popular Fire deck which can easily do 90 damage with minimal set-up.
     
  4. mrdraz07

    mrdraz07 New Member

    Leafeon-Sceptile can afford to run non-basic energy like Call and Cyclone, but that's because Leafeon is amazing.

    Sceptile's just trash. It's a win-more card. Leafeon provides enough energy accel, and can Leaf Guard to throw off damage math until Verdant Dance becomes lethal.
     
  5. vanderbilt_grad

    vanderbilt_grad New Member

    I really like Sceptile + Torterra. It was one of the first post MD decks I tested ... and mostly with nice results.

    Sceptile itself fails for all the reasons mentioned in the OP and more, but the big reason it hasn't had much success IMHO has more to do with the quality of other grass pokemon to date.

    Dragonite ex was a low damage output ex.
    Tangrowth required too much energy on one Pokemon even with Wild growth.
    Leafeon, Quagsire & Venusaur didn't really need it.

    But Torterra now ... he really likes Sceptile. Torterra's attacks take even amounts of energy so he can do 60 for 1 or 100 for 2 with Wild Growth. That's FAST. Similarly when he goes down he doesn't take all your energy with him.
     
  6. DarkJake

    DarkJake New Member

    Setting up 2 Stage 2s that aren't related, don't enhance search at all, and half of the combo can't attack? Not to mention the rise in Lati-Lock.
     
  7. ZAKtheGeek

    ZAKtheGeek New Member

    Some of these reasons don't make a whole lot of sense.

    Why would you need them? Even if you did, what's stopping you from playing them?

    Why not? Because of the energy? How often do you attach energy to Claydol? And Furret doesn't even need energy. Or are you saying there's not enough space? Well, if you have a deck with Togekiss in it, you can be running a big meaty Chomp line and some Claydol too. I don't see why something like this can't work for Sceptile.

    OBJECTION!!
    Grovyle GE gets 2 grass from the deck for 0 energy. Not too shabby, and can totally work with Leafeon. Doesn't necessarily mix too well with Claydol, though.
     
  8. ashinto

    ashinto New Member

    i think that it would be great with CG venasaur. all of the colorless nrgy become grass, and venasuar does 20+10 for each grass nrgy. that would be a great combo.
     
  9. revdjweb

    revdjweb New Member

    i agree that some of the failure is because (except for tangrowth) the grass pokemon it best pairs with are other stage 2s. leafeon lvl x is even worse than a stage 2 since you can't rare candy to it.
    the problem with running call or cyclone energy is that it undermines the whole point to having sceptile in the first place, unless the energy required for the grass pokemon's attack is an odd number (like wormadans'), otherwise you are getting nothing but the effect of the special energy and otherwise wasting your energy attachment for the turn.
     
  10. DarkJake

    DarkJake New Member

    Smeargle obtains 3 energy of any color for 0. What's your point?
     
  11. Crystal Hikara

    Crystal Hikara New Member

    Don't forget the non-delta CG Treecko that can sit and paralyze your butt till you get things rolling with a Rare Candy. I object as well- guaranteed paralysis is not at all bad.

    I still think Sceppy has potential, personally, if you run a P4 Sceptile with it to move around energy like mad. Reminds me of the ol' Energy Crisis combo from Base, with Venuzard...good times. I know I'll be giving my Scept/Drag EX deck a shot at BR.
     
  12. DarkJake

    DarkJake New Member

    Uhhh it's a flip paralysis. Meaning you lose any chance at set up at a chance at forcing the same fate on your opponent. Half the time you sacrifice too much, the other half it's mutual so it may as well be irrelevant.
     
  13. Steve=0

    Steve=0 New Member

    I went 4th in Finland Nationals with Sceppygrowth...

    I won 2 Magmortars and last year champion's G&G. I Lost to Magkiss 2-1 in Top4.

    So I can't say Sceptile is bad.
     
    Last edited: May 29, 2008
  14. Prime

    Prime Content Developer<br>Blog Admin<br>Contest Host

    Sceptile probably won't be up there with the big decks, but it's definitely more useful and combos with more pokemon that many other cards that have been released. Blastoise? Swampert? I could name handfuls of cards that are less playable than Sceptile. And if Magmortar ever dies down completely (which I doubt it will), Sceptile could see more play.
     
  15. Rashad

    Rashad New Member

    what about sceptile and carnivine i always thought that was a sweet combo
     
  16. V_For_Vendetta

    V_For_Vendetta New Member

    A Stage Two used so a Basic can attack for one less? Sounds awesome :rolleyes:

    Sceptile fails because nothing really goes with him.
    Torterra is cute, but he deals pathetic damage and dies horribly to mag.
    Leafeon looks nice, but the lack of solid secondary attacker kills it if you prize a Leafeon.
    Anything else is just subpar, basically.
     
  17. vanderbilt_grad

    vanderbilt_grad New Member

    60 for 1 or 100 for 2 with Sceptile in play = "pathetic damage". Are you serious?

    I'm not going to try to argue that Torterra + Sceptile is BDIF or anything but low damage hasn't been one of the problems I've seen in testing. The problems are slow & bumpy starts ... you generally want your starter, then a Torterra with 2 nrg, then build your Sceptile for the rest of the Torterras. Once (if) you get all that it's amazingly fast and the Level X is just amazing if you are loosing.
     
  18. kaworu

    kaworu New Member

    What about

    3 - 2 - 3 - 1 Torterra / lvX
    3 - 2 - 3 Sceppy
    2 -2 Claydoll
    4 Pachi / Phione

    Just having to get 2 stage 2's set up is too slow by itself, I guess once it gets going it could be great.
     
  19. vanderbilt_grad

    vanderbilt_grad New Member

    I had a 1-1 Sunflora tech & only 2-1-2 Sceptile in mine kaworu but mostly a similar build.
     
  20. Escata

    Escata New Member

    I think the problem about sceptile is that there are two things in this format that completely ruin it. They are not being much used now, but can become suddenly: Cessation crystal and Lati-lock. Lati-lock is terrible because unlike cessation crystal, you can't get rid of it. One of those things in play is much worse to deal than magmortar or another strong deck.

    I wouldn't use sceptile in this year format. After worlds, sceptile might become interesting (as mentioned before in this post) . I think there will be plenty of grass type pokemon with different strategies to add to the "lots of energy in play = big damage" combo. (For this purpose, togekiss as a recharger and magmortar as an attacker is much better) . I think that a deck prepared to cause constant low damage with 1 energy can be viable too, specially because there won't be any grass resisting pokemon (old metal types) anymore.

    From DP to MD we have unknown things like heracross, carnivine (mentioned before here - 1 energy 60 damage - basic pokemon - water resistance ), volbeat, illumise... All basic pokémon that are easy to charge, have some useful poké-power/attack effect, or cause sufficient damage to KO an already damaged pokemon.

    As a stage 1 grass pokemon that are easy to play, there is Kricketune (4 of them in play = quick setup, and if it is KOed, only 1 energy is lost) and Venomoth (deals only 50 damage with 1 grass but its pokebody is annoying and venomoth also resists fighting -- venomoth also becomes immune to effects of opponent'sattacks after it uses its Disturbance Dive attack). There are Sunflora and Mothim too, attackers that would use only 1 energy to attack after sceptile (I didn't consider Cherrim...).

    I saw once that Yanmega will have 90 HP, a resistance, zero retreat cost and a 4 energy attack which was quite interesting (don't remember what it did... I know it was huge damage and bench attack). Cost reduced to only 2 with sceptile. There is tangrowth, which is both "big damage", lots of HP, sniper and normal attack with effect. There might be more fitting stage 1 and basic grass pokemon to be released in the next sets and plenty of special effects in their attacks, which I think should be taken in consideration too.
     

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