The growing gap between Unlimited and Modified requires another Format

Discussion in 'TCG News & Gossip Discussion' started by Prof. Douglas Zuver, Sep 22, 2003.

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  1. Tego

    Tego New Member

    Chansey is not broken anymore with the new Metal Energy ruling. It was a beast with Metal Energy's sick effect, but now it isn't broken in Unlimited anymore.

    Gust of Wind on the other hand, IS broken. Look at the card, it's crazy. Not a single drawback. There is a reason why cards like Double Gust exist. Heck, even Double Gust turned out to become broken after all.
     
  2. Dro~

    Dro~ New Member

    IMO, some of the cards should be remade to supporters, such as gust of wind, energy removal, etc. They're still powerful but being suporters balance it.
     
  3. ShadowCacnea

    ShadowCacnea New Member

    ouch. I'd be playing abput 20 supporters if they remade ER and Gust as Supporters.
     
  4. dkates

    dkates New Member

    Supporters? That'd defeat the purpose! SER might be suitable as a Supporter, but ER and Gust? No. Well, there's always ER2, which is more effective than you'd think, even if it's not quite ER.
     
  5. Kyfogre22

    Kyfogre22 New Member

    *slaps from an impossible distance* Gust, broken? removing gust of wind from play would reinforce the belief that your bench is invincible; without gust, IMO, this format is a dud. If you can justify a valid reason to ban it (besides the "read the darn card!" things), ill agree with you, but there is no real reason to ban it.
     
    Last edited: Sep 25, 2003
  6. bullados

    bullados <a href="http://pokegym.net/forums/showthread.php?

    The bench is supposed to be a safe area for building your Pokemon. GOW, and to a lesser extent, Double Gust both destroy this sanctuary of building. I do admit that Double Gust is not all that broken, with the drawback and all, but I just don't like the idea of anything and everything being a potential target for my opponent's attacks, especially without my knowledge. I know about Feint Attack and those bench hitters, but those are enemies that are known before they are used, via the bench or powering up. GOW and DG are both unknown bench hitters, in that my opponent doesn't know if or when I'm going to play them, where as the bench hitters have a definite warning signal that says, "I'm going off now, be prepared".
     
  7. dkates

    dkates New Member

    Thing is, one of the facets of good gameplay in a TCG is to not reveal your strategy any earlier than you must. And most of these bench hitters are either weak or evolved. Consider that a Stage 1 evolution line takes at least 4 slots, and usually more like 5-8. Besides, I disagree that the bench should be a safe place to build up Pokemon. Once a Pokemon is in play, a player should need to be prepared to defend it or use it, IMO. If GoW were banned, though, it wouldn't be the end of the world -- free Retreaters are already popular, and Double Gust + free Retreater = GoW.
     
  8. Perfect0ne

    Perfect0ne New Member

    Anyone afraid of GoW has a fear of their own speed capabilities. They think they wont be able to pull off the fast Gust and Kill before their opponent and therefore, are afraid of strategy and change. Gust is simply a sniper attack, yet it seems nintendo will merely leave us with no draw and no Gusting with EXon... truly a sad format compared to the past... I see their arguments for it, but we dont even have good babies or mass heal for bleeps sake!
     
  9. dkates

    dkates New Member

    Please stay on topic, PerfectOne. That comment about Exon could easily pull us off-topic. However, you do make a good point about Gust. It's not as hard as some would think to make sure you can deal with a Guster. Forgive me if I'm repeating myself, but I like GoW because it adds an element of surprise and uncertainty to the game.
     
  10. Perfect0ne

    Perfect0ne New Member

    well i thought it was clear that i was ending that small dispute earlier, and by the silence, i figured i did.
    Believe me, no one wants an extended format more than me- i feed off of OP.
     
  11. Otaku

    Otaku Active Member

    To me, this is our best bet. Locally, I ahve had to stop my league atendance to make time for my school work (and since my only sourse of income is tutoring, it's hard to justify committing my Thrusday nights to Pokemon). Once my classes stabalize and I can find some reliable part time work, I will of course return, and I ahve already asked the local GL (for lack of a better term) and he is interested in the concept.

    What are the advantages of block formats? I tried making a list of distinct advatanges, but there is a lot of overlap, or things that need explanations as to why they can be good. One thing is that its usually easier to deal with fewer cards. Yes, that means less chance of "direct" counters existing, but that is offset by less "broken" combos. Now add in that this forces people who want to play to explore the card pool thoroughly. This really stopped happening by Fossil: we had Haymaker, Wall/Stall, Venucenter and Raindance, and the evo based decks were in decline as is. What happens when we go back to Base-Rocket with what we have learned? Some cards will always be problems, and some cards from that format will probably never be used, but this was also the first of the TCG, so mistakes were expected. However, I know a lot of people who would hate me know, because I know some nice "rogue decks" and other tricks that ruin their plans. Turbo Snorla is somewhere between "gag" and "rogue" decks in Unlimited. In Base Rocket, it becomes a serious opponent. I can run Sychters to counter Hitmonchan, and after that, if you were too Trainer dependent, you're mine! On the other than, if you have a well thought-out deck, you and I will have a good match.

    Gym is tricky: I must confess that I am inexperienced with many of these cards. Still, most of the "archetypes" based around these cards that were "over-powered" needed some outside influence, or more often, were the outside incfluence that "broke" a deck.

    Neo's main "dilemma" is finding counter-tech for certain archetypes taht were out of control. If these can be dicovered, this could be a very interesting format... though some cards will likely need banning (Sneasel) or "errata-ing" to their original Japanese text (Slowking).

    E-Block: this looks to be wonderful, at least if I can get the ruling that I do not understand on the Legendery Dogs of this set over turned (Rainbow has no type in hand; that's why it can't be Raindanced. The e-Dogs Poke-BODIES check the card types in hand, ergo they should not affect Rainbow). Once this happens, we tend to ahve good "counter-tech" for any potential archetype, even Scizor/Furret-the e-Entei can hit for a flat 40 for RCC. If the ruling is chainged, a Rainbow and two of any energy other than Fire shall suffice. If Scyther or Scizor show up, power up, and they shouldn;t have more than 3 Metal attached when you attack, half killing it (40 x 2 - 30=50). Then they have to OHKO you or heal to stay alive. It doesn't "ruin" Scizor/Furret, just makes it less of a bother.

    Nintendo: this format is possibly what will be official anyway, and even if we wanted it, it ain't done. :p There are more sets from this block coming.

    Now, there are issues that must be addressed, like where to stick the Promos and SI, and if the Legendery Collection should be used at all. Playtesting should answer those. Another is whether some banning or errata-ing should be done to cards. Again, play testing should provide it. While I dislike either, some cards were waaaaaaaaaay over-powered. Lastly, should a few cards be allowed outside of their sets for blanace? Base-Rocket has no stadiums, tools, or supporters. Metal Energy won't matter to any pre-Metal sets, but Dark matters to "Dark ______" Pokemon. I really sould start a thread, but it probably won't be soon: three exams next week.
     
  12. dkates

    dkates New Member

    For Neo, I'd keep the ban on Sneasel and Slowking. This is not from playtesting (although if you need help playtesting these, I'll be glad to, via Apprentice), but I'd base the placement of Promos on when they were released. Think of SI as an 11-Promo set -- that's basically what it is anyway. I, for one, would love to see these formats tried.
     
  13. RaNd0m

    RaNd0m New Member

    I think it's arguable to say that Double Gust is BETTER than Gust of Wind. It functioned both as a switch and a gust, which made it excellent in Modified. In unlimited decks using cards like Sneasel and Scyther, there's no REASON not to use it.

    ~ RaNd0m
     
  14. filinal

    filinal New Member

    i say no gust of wind. you dont know how much i hate it but on the other hand i love playing it. Its only purpose is to make a possible win a real win. Say you have a tough guy ot really fast. All you need are gust of winds and youve won. Bye Bye all opponents benched basics and weaklings. ER has to be banned, it is just a simple no. Enough of those and youve slowed down your opponent enough to win. ER2 is acceptable because of the luck factor.
     
  15. Otaku

    Otaku Active Member

    That's one opinion... generally, GoW only lets you "win real fast" if your opponet built a bad deck. Sometimes a really skilled player loses to an unskilled one due to the power of Trainers in Unlimited, but any one individual Trainer rarely makes the difference. As for ER2 being acceptable, boy do I have a deal for you. Sweet, sweet comp... just one problem, half the time you start it, it does nothing... not such a good comp, is it? ER2 and SER2 are both too weak. The reward isn't worth the risk. Half the time, ER2 does absolutley nothing. That's why few people I know use Bill's Teleporter: 4 cards was good, but 0 cards were very bad. SER2 is even worse tha E2. The target's restricted, and while removing all of their energy sounds good, it only does that 1/4 of the time. another 1/4 of the time, it does to you what you were trying to do to them. Finally, it does nothing half the time. Personally, I don't know why we haven't seen some sort of "Energy Guard" Poketool, which would be a welcome addition for many decks. But back to the point. ER is only "too good" becuase so many Pokemon were "that bad": they wre very energy inefficient, so losing even one could doom them. Now, the rest of use just get annoyed when the opponent whips of 3 Ers in rapid succession. Annoying, but... well, that's just that: it's annoying. If you are not barely winning/losing, it should just be really annoying. If you are winning solidly or losing soundly, then it probably didn't matter. SER, on the other hand, did become to powerful Again, the card itself is "balanced". WHen I play a Trainer, I expect it to do something. that's Why ER was balanced, more or less. I had to use up a Trainer to nuke one energy. A 1-for-1 trade off. SER made you discard an energy, so it was a 2-for-2 deal.Now, since you can only attach one energy per turn, and through combinations of other cards, it was "broken" by being hit by a multiple barrages of them, which isn't evne that bad in and of itself, provided that that is what the deck does. SER became the real problem. With it and an ER, you could keep your opponent without Energy the whole game.

    Long story short, energy removal itself is good for the game. We just need to find a way to make it work as a Trainer without "breaking" it.
     
  16. bullados

    bullados <a href="http://pokegym.net/forums/showthread.php?

    how bout making it a Supporter? Same could be said for SER.
     
  17. Otaku

    Otaku Active Member

    For ER, no... I ahve been discussing this with people at length and a normal ER as a Supporter is just bad. Burn a card and your supporyter for the turn to remove one energy. Scizor laughs at this. :rolleyes: Now, SER miiiight make a good supporter, but either a) they need to make it "free" otherwise or power it up. Losing my Supporter use for the turn in all but UNlimited is a steep price. It also prevents the infamous "I SER, then I SER, then I SER, then I SER" that ticks people off.
     
  18. bullados

    bullados <a href="http://pokegym.net/forums/showthread.php?

    The reason I said that is because ER is already too powerful as it is. It sets a player back by at least one turn, and, more than likely, gets rid of a special energy, which are impossible to get back. I do note, however, that making ER a supporter might be too great of a step. How bout, instead of a Supporter, put this text onto both cards: "Place this card beside your active Pokemon. Discard it after your turn. You cannot play another card called "Energy Removal" or "Super Energy Removal" during this turn." This still leaves your Supporter open, and prevents the absolute abuse of these two cards. I will admit that the SER might still be a little overpowering, but there always has to be some downside to a card.
     
  19. Otaku

    Otaku Active Member

    WIth regards to ER setting a player back a turn, a good player will only be set back one turn. barring bad luck. Special Energy is not impossible to get back, but it can be difficult. This is why most decks that rely heavily on it have means of preventing its removal, like Ecogym, No Removal Gym, Slowking, Dark Vileplume (my personal fav), Chaos Gym (my second favorite). In Unlimited we have Energy Charge, Power Charge, Fossil Gastly, Energy Flow + Energy Abosrbtion via Mewtwo/Mewtwo ex, and probably the most efficient, Trash Exchange. Trash Exchange is more or less a deck staple in my area, used in conjuction with (in the past) a few Nightly Grabage Runs or (now) with Town Volunteers. 2 TV and 2 TRs can keep your deck going around and around for quite a while, so long as at least one of each (or two you have IFs, etc.) go back in your deck.

    Simply adding a "one per turn" restriction to them is so obvious. I feel like an idiot for not thinking of that. So many Trainers that are too good plain, but not good enough to be a Supporter. As I said, SER, without having the discard on your end, would probably be a good Supporter.

    Now, I must confess, this is getting off topic, so I'll try to get back to the point. THings like this are probably better for PMs, IMs, or new threads. :)
     
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