Pokémon TCG: Sword and Shield—Brilliant Stars

The legality of Playtcgme and Bebes search websites??

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JohnnyBlaze

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I play other card games besides Pokemon and this issue of the free online programs such as the Playtcgme and Bebe's Search.com websites conflict with the Pokemon brand and intellectual property. Especially now since the advent and success of PTCGO. I personally feel that playtcgme totally violates this and thus have people playing this game for free rather than purchasing Booster packs to obtain the codes like the rest of us to play online. Yes I am calling you guys out that support Bebes search and playtcgme as a bunch of Free Loaders!! You are not helping Pokemon out by playing on this free website. How is this not infringing on copyrighted Pokemon Material just as the example of Cardfight Vanguard below?

"Dear name removed

We hope this e-mail finds you well.
We are the legal team from Bushiroad Inc. and we are contacting you with regards to "Cardfight!! Vanguard Pro".

As you know, Bushiroad is the developer and publisher of the "Cardfight!! Vanguard". Bushiroad's substantial investments in the "Cardfight!! Vanguard" game and its related properties have resulted in Bushiroad's ownership of substantial intellectual property rights in the names, graphic elements, and designs incorporated into the "Cardfight! Vanguard" game.

It is our understanding that you are developing the online game called "Cardfight!! Vanguard Pro (PRO)", which is based on and derived from "Cardfight!! Vanguard".
It is also our understanding that the PRO game features highly similar or identical rules and game design as compared to those features in the "Cardfight!! Vanguard" game.
Finally, it is our understanding that the design and pictures of the game cards used in PRO are identical to those used in the "Cardfight!! Vanguard" game.

If you distribute the PRO game, our valuable intellectual property rights have been misappropriated through your actions.
Therefore, please be advised that we hereby demands that you immediately cease and desist any and all development and releasing movies of the PRO game and that you immediately remove and dispose of any and all developed pictures, system and the other products of the PRO game. We request that you take such action within 24 hours of receipt of this message.
We further asks that you confirm that you have taken such action, and that no further development, publication or distribution of the PRO game, or any other game that includes intellectual property belonging to Bushiroad, will occur.

Unless we receive your reply by May 10, 2013, we will presume that you do not intend to voluntarily take the necessary actions outlined above and we will have no alternative but to consider prospective legal action against you, in which we will seek all available legal remedies under the Copyright Act.

Youres truly,

Bushiroad Inc.
Legal team
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No one is making any money off of playtcg so no legal boundaries are being crossed.
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No one was going to make any money off of this Pro program either. It was going to be a play for Free program just like playtcgme is. However in both instances these free programs are in violation of certain copyright infringements. Further there may not be actual money made but having a free to play program is indirectly taking money away from PTCGO. Since those FREE players arent investing anything into PTCGO.
 
JohnnyBlaze said:
No one was going to make any money off of this Pro program either. It was going to be a play for Free program just like playtcgme is. However in both instances these free programs are in violation of certain copyright infringements. Further there may not be actual money made but having a free to play program is indirectly taking money away from PTCGO. Since those FREE players arent investing anything into PTCGO.
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Too bad so sad, playtcg was there first anyways.
 
I'm no legal expert, but it might not be as Black and White as you think it is. PTCGO is a relatively new Emerging Power. We've had plenty of other PokemonTCG simulators like Apprentice(originally created for MTG), Redshark and others without any problems in the past You may not think us Noble in our pursuit of Victory, but PlayTCG and these other simulators fill a need the community has. PTCGO doesn't have all the cards competitive players want to use and has other restrictions that some of these simulators don't. A player should be able to choose their Next Destiny, and if that means they want to be a Dark Explorer on some of the fringes of the internet, so be it. I like the ability to choose my playtesting platform, and yes I do use PTCGO often, simply because its quick and easy to find a game. But I would never act better than everyone like a Dragon Exalted because I use PTCGO instead of one of the other options.
Legal Boundaries Crossed or not, I hope Nintendo and the powers that be don't bring down a Plasma Storm on these other programs and websites. Just keep improving your product and players will convert to your system instead. Also, make those online booster packs cheaper, cause I don't want to have to start selling my Plasma when I could be playing for Freeze somewhere else.
 
Redshark and PlayTCG are simulators, not games.
They're used for playtesting, just like you can playtest with proxies.
The video game also has simulators for that purpose.

It seems like TPCi tolerate them them because they know that 99 % of the players who use these simulators also buy the real cards/game.

As long as simulators don't try to replace the real game, I don't see any problem there. Redshark doesn't have images, and playtcg doesn't even have implemented card functionality (not even attachments!) and could be considered as a combination of a very basic general TCG simulator combined with a Pokémon scan database. It's definitely not the same to play a simulator than to play PTCGO.
 
Its mainly a testing program since they need the people using it to understand the game itself to a good level, and mainly what ShadowGuard said.
 
I think you guys vastly overestimate TPCi's approval of Playtcg. Inaction is not the same as approval. TPCi is a company that is very thorough, and if/when they act Playtcg would receive a similar letter.

As it stands, I think it's just a matter of time before Nintendo comes after Playtcg.me and Bebessearch.
 
JohnnyBlaze said:
Especially now since the advent and success of PTCGO. I personally feel that playtcgme totally violates this and thus have people playing this game for free rather than purchasing Booster packs to obtain the codes like the rest of us to play online.
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I personally feel that PTCGO is too buggy, and doesn't even support 2 of the top 6 decks in the last format (no Tropical Beach). People purchase packs and play this game at a cost on PTCGO, and they can't even play all of the decks. Why can't you be like the rest of us and play on PlayTCG?

PTCGO is horrible for testing. It doesn't support decks with more than 60 cards. It's not convenient, as I can't play in my browser, and I can't proxy for new cards. Most importantly, I can't test against myself on PTCGO. I need to play against someone else, and sometimes that's inferior to testing against myself.

If you think PTCGO can replace the functionality of PlayTCG for a competitive player, you're insane.
 
I need to play against someone else, and sometimes that's inferior to testing against myself.
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Sam this made me laugh so hard.

If you think PTCGO can replace the functionality of PlayTCG for a competitive player, you're insane.
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Its not the functionality I am arguing, its the legality. Lets face it Pokebeach has been given all kinds of grief over the years for the obvious reasons now. Why isnt the same grief being given to playtcgme? In both instances their overall goal is not to profit but to promote and grow this game we all love to play. However these are intellectual properties that are being copied and I just wont support that.

PS - In no way am I being put up to this from a PTO or company rep. As a competitive Poke-Dad I also find it annoying that not all the cards cough-cough Tropical Beach are not made available to play on PTCGO. I just find a major discrepancy in peoples thoughts regarding this issue when it is the same exact scenario as PokeBeach was put under regarding their scans. The releasing of scans prior to the pre-release were ruining people's expectations with the tournaments just like the release of cards on Playtcgme ruins my expectations when it comes to waiting and playing on the real PTCGO.
 
They could shut down fansites entirely. Yet they don't. Imagine the backlash.

TPCI is pretty merciful in this. Let's not whine.
 
JohnnyBlaze is right here actually. It all depends on whether Nintendo cares about doing anything with the site. Wizards of the Coast forced a shut down on the program Cockatrice for Magic ( which is essentially the same thing as PlayTCG ). I'll be interested to see if Nintendo decides to crack down once they leave the beta phase of their online program and decide to push it fully and run tournaments and such. Nintendo COULD get the site taken down, absolutely, the question is just whether they choose to or not.

I personally won't use the site because it is slow, awful, and glitches all the time. It is hilarious to me that 15+ years later, the best client we have for a free online playing program has worse interactions, play experience and interface than Apprentice.
 
JohnnyBlaze said:
Sam this made me laugh so hard.
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I originally wrote "and sometimes that's inferior to playing with myself." I probably should've kept it that way.

I agree that the legality is suspect, but I don't know of anyone who hasn't committed a victimless crime in his/her life.

I'm not against the idea of paying for a piece of software that lets me test online. I'm against the idea of paying for a piece of crappy software that lets me test online.
 
The only thing PlayTCG has that TPCi could possibly attack them for is card scans. There isn't anything else about it (not even the name) that can be seen as a trademark or copyright infringement. Then again, if they went after them for card scans they'd be obligated to go after all the other places that have scans too.
 
REALLY? -.- Honestly, most of the people who use PlayTCG are people who won't use PTCGO regardless of PlayTCG's existence. I for one would not use PTCGO even if Playtcg did not currently exist. PlayTCG is a great service, and in a sense could help pokemon, simply because their own program isnt doing very well right now for many reasons. Playtcg keeps people playing online, and when the time comes for PTCGO to go hard or go home, at least people will still be interested in playing online thanks to Playtcg. So if anything, Playtcg could CREATE users for PTCGO.
 
When PTCGO gets up and running completely with Tropical Beach, Tournaments etc. PlayTCG will be obsolete. The only players who will use PlayTCG are players who don't want to get codes or those who sell their codes for a quick buck.
 
^Re LOLZ: Because of that, PlayTCG will never go obsolete for as long as it exists. Tons of people just don't see the point in playing PTCGO yet.

Anyways, onto the OP's post, whcih I have some issues over. I'll try to tackle this both from a legal perspective (real lawyers: have fun at my expense, lol) and a practical perspective.

Point one: Johnny, I challenge yur premises that freeware users are A) freeloaders; and B) not helping Pokemon out.

A) What are they freeloaders to: Online Play, or the brand in general? Unless they buy nothing from the Pokemon brand whatsoever, these people are not freeloaders to the brand. Additionally, since physical packs are now intertwined with PTCGO, anyone who purchases a pack isn't freeloading off the online play program because they are effectively investing directly in it.

B) The existence of PlayTCG assists Pokemon because it operates as an advertising tool. Most online players have a goal, such as organized play. This inspires, in either direct or indirect forms, purchases from someone. I won't read TPCi's minds, but as long as there are official tournaments, anything that inspires purchases is pretty useful.

Anyways, onto the misappropriation of rights argument:

Much of misappropriation turns on whether or not it's allowed by the IP right owner. From Apprentice, to Lackey, to Redshark, and to PlayTCG, the Pokemon Trading Card Game has a pretty rich history of being allowed by the IP owner. This is really, really important to recognize, because I don't think this sort of precedent exists for other games. This suggests that TPCi has at least tolerated it -- maybe for the below purposes.

It's obvious that TPCi can change its mind and clamp down on this whenever it wants, and it's uncontested that they own this game and all the characters in it. But they have to do something first. Furthermore, to win a suit and really deter the maker of PlayTCG/Bebes, they have to prove damages.

Also, a general counter-point to remind people who care about PlayTCG more than myself: PlayTCG actually makes MONEY from ad revenue - he doesn't do this for free!
 
Cyrus said:
Furthermore, to win a suit and really deter the maker of PlayTCG/Bebes, they have to prove damages.
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This is the big key point right here. TPC/i would have to that those simulators affect sells of their product. The same goes for any other website that host copy written characters or brands. If they can't link loss of sales or damages to your product them they can't take legal action against you as you are protected by law.

One the other hand, PTCGO is a poor excuse for a simulator. Simulators are not suppose to be pay to play. They are suppose to be a tool to help you or your game, test playing new ideas and such before you spend money to see if a concept works. PTCGO is bloated, running a lot of unnecessary things and fails as a simulator. Whats even worse is they are selling a product full of glitches and may key functions are not even ready yet. Every card should be given to you from the start and updated when new cards are released. This should be a tool for getting people into the game and allowing people to test, not just another game that people with money can play.
 
Nobody finds it odd that the OP's quote was an e-mail, not a letter, and although it lays out the case for the similarities between the two in what looks like a legal-sounding way, it lacks words one would expect to see, such as "hereinafter 'PRO'," instead only putting it in parenthesis, and does not refer to the "Copyright Act" specifically and instead simply calls it "the Copyright Act"?

Is there a language barrier here? Are they not in the US? The use of commas and periods outside of the quotations makes me think that.

vaporeon said:
If they can't link loss of sales or damages to your product them they can't take legal action against you as you are protected by law.
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Well, they could go after you regardless. It would help their case if they could prove damages and would look empty if they could/would not. It's free advertising if there's no damages and it just looks like they're beating down on fans.
 
vaporeon said:
This is the big key point right here. TPC/i would have to that those simulators affect sells of their product. The same goes for any other website that host copy written characters or brands. If they can't link loss of sales or damages to your product them they can't take legal action against you as you are protected by law.
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It won't matter. If TPCi files a lawsuit against playtcgme or any other similar simulator, they will be forced to shut down because the authors of these simulators are not about to fight an expensive and prolonged lawsuit.
 
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