Theory of Creation

[Magic_Umbreon]

no offence MU, but that is silly talk
there is no reason why a person cant simply keep their head out of the clouds and think about the here and now rather than focusing on a god which has no proof, no reliable reference (the bible is not a reliable reference, at all), and has never shown himself to be true

the other way around, however, makes sense
should a person worsip god if they do not believe? no, if they do not believe, they dont believe, and cannot be forced to think otherwise

If a God is possible then why not lead your life on a possibility?

Jesus Christ has been interpretted as God showing himself.

 

[PSYCO829]

If a God is possible then why not lead your life on a possibility?

Jesus Christ has been interpretted as God showing himself.

why not lead my life on a possibility?
because that is silly
id rather focus on what i have, and what i know than take a random guess check on a god
i have enough to focus on without thinking "i wonder who created me..."

jesus was also interpreted as simply a prophet by the muslims, and as a fake by the jews
too many interpretations for one to simply say "he was blablabla"

 

[Lucario4ever]

a close friend of mine used it to humiliate and hurt me in a way that i will never recover from
that is all i will say about it

Im trying to be mean of your friend but, like I said earlier most christians are hypocrites. Its a sad fact really its getting harder and harder to talk to people about God because other Christians has tarnished our reputations.

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why not lead my life on a possibility?
because that is silly
id rather focus on what i have, and what i know than take a random guess check on a god
i have enough to focus on without thinking "i wonder who created me..."

jesus was also interpreted as simply a prophet by the muslims, and as a fake by the jews
too many interpretations for one to simply say "he was blablabla"

Well those are to totally different groups who hate each other. I only view and trust about what Jesus is like through the bible not some other religion i'll hear them out but most likely find a flaw in there theory's.

 

[PSYCO829]

Im trying to be mean of your friend but, like I said earlier most christians are hypocrites. Its a sad fact really its getting harder and harder to talk to people about God because other Christians has tarnished our reputations.

agreed, but everyonce in a while you find christians willing to have a pleasant talk about faith and their differences
you, MU, and sandslash7 are good examples:thumb:

Well those are to totally different groups who hate each other. I only view and trust about what Jesus is like through the bible not some other religion i'll hear them out but most likely find a flaw in there theory's.

fair enough, and i do see your point
the groups seem to only hate each other in the middle east, and thats because they have so much hatred with each other going back so long im surprised there hasnt been open war yet...

 

[ZAKtheGeek]

Have you heard about The Case for Christ? An Atheist was startled by the changes in his wife, who became a Christan, so he decided to test Christianity through the rigors of Investigative Journalism. He waded through a mountain of evidence, and compiled a verdict that astounded himself. He came to the conclusion that Jesus was who He said He was, and that he should follow Him. This man (Lee Strobel) Did choose God. He did say: "Believing in God sounds like the right idea, so I'm going to do it."

Man, you're misunderstanding me or something. This guy came to belief for a reason: a supposed mountain of evidence. That's how I said one gains a belief. He didn't choose God; he was convinced.

I did read your post, but since there is no way for me to know what kind of organism they might have been, I just went with one of the smallest life forms known ATM.

So, unable to use an appropriate example to try and discredit me, you used an inappropriate one? That's nice. You attacked a position I specifically wrote I wasn't supporting.

I knew those things but I tend to see it the other way around: "There's no point being an aetheist/agnostic". Ie. you shoudl really devout your life to some God.

Why? You have no idea what you're being judged on (if you're being judged at all; why would you even think that?), so you really have no hope of trying to tip the odds in your favor, even over an atheist.

 

[Marril]

I'd say that God, it his omniscience, knew that Abraham wouldn't understand that "Before I created Man, I knew that Sodom and Gomorrah were totally and completely without saving hope, so I'm going there to wipe them out, and only Lot will escape." So he dumbed down what he was saying. i.e. He related his conversation to what Abraham was used to listening to.

Bull hockey. The thing to understand is that, really, people back then were about as smart as they are now. They certainly don't know as much, and on the whole are better educated these days, but I think Abraham could conceive of such a notion as, "Sodom and Gomorrah are just screwed, trust me on this, since I know everything. I'm the bloody God Most High, after all. I just know these things."

God wasn't screwing with Abraham, Abraham knew that he nephew lived in Sodom, and he did not want God to destroy the cities with Lot in them. So Abraham got a promise from God that He would not destroy the towns if He found 10 innocent people living there.

That's pretty much the definition of screwing with someone. "Well, I know for a fact something is one way, but I'll play along like it's this other way and make this guy labour under a false impression, only to destroy the place because I didn't feel like telling him what I knew all along."

If a God is possible then why not lead your life on a possibility?

I'm sorry, I must have missed the lecture where it was scientifically proven that a sentient, omnipotent, and omniscient being existing outside the known universe yet interacting with us is possible.

jesus was also interpreted as simply a prophet by the muslims, and as a fake by the jews

Jesus is really the only true point of divergence for Christianity, Judaism, and Islam. All three have the same basis.

 

[Lucario4ever]

agreed, but everyonce in a while you find christians willing to have a pleasant talk about faith and their differences
you, MU, and sandslash7 are good examples:thumb:


fair enough, and i do see your point
the groups seem to only hate each other in the middle east, and thats because they have so much hatred with each other going back so long im surprised there hasnt been open war yet...

Quite true it is very easy to talk on forums. So a Christian really shouldn't be that proud for speaking up. Because its easy. In real life its a whole differen't story and it does get hard.

Also I think this thread might get locked soon its getting to were people and just trying to convert and is getting off topic. I think its a great idea to share our opinions but eventually I think it will be locked just like the last one so somehow we still need to talk about creation.

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I'm sorry, I must have missed the lecture where it was scientifically proven that a sentient, omnipotent, and omniscient being existing outside the known universe yet interacting with us is possible.

True in fact God doesn't speak to anyone in words until he returns. Also how could science prove that really?

 

[PSYCO829]

the last discussion was locked because it became all about "my religion is better than yours"
and you are right, religion is about as hard to talk about in real life as politics are
neither are very good table conversation

I'm sorry, I must have missed the lecture where it was scientifically proven that a sentient, omnipotent, and omniscient being existing outside the known universe yet interacting with us is possible.

same here
we really must try to keep up on our scientific lectures marril, it would appear we are falling behind

 

[Magic_Umbreon]

Quite true it is very easy to talk on forums. So a Christian really shouldn't be that proud for speaking up. Because its easy. In real life its a whole differen't story and it does get hard.

Also I think this thread might get locked soon its getting to were people and just trying to convert and is getting off topic. I think its a great idea to share our opinions but eventually I think it will be locked just like the last one so somehow we still need to talk about creation.

Back to back posts merged. The following information has been added:



True in fact God doesn't speak to anyone in words until he returns. Also how could science prove that really?

Science is perception. Perception neither proves nor disproves anything. If acid + alkali = neutral a billion times, it makes the N+1th time very likely but it COULD still not happen.

Whatever angle you look at it from, the possibility still remains?

I'm not saying what i just said is right at all, just what seemed to occur to me. I'm really open to anything anyone has to say. Particularly, there seems to be lots of people I talk to who deny God as a possibility which naturally strecthes the limits of tolerance. If they cannot understand why I believe in the possibility of a God and I cannot understand why they believe in the impossibility of a God then we can make no progress.


Discussion is discussion and it is VITAL for everyone's well being that we are open to opposite views. Afterall, if we are sure then what harm could it do. If we are not sure then surely doubt makes us aware we were only "sure" for the wrong reasons therefore a beneficial effect. This makes it a win-win situation unless both sides have adamant unchanging views in which case the conversation just ends on a respectful tone and we go do different things OR if one or both are immature/disrespectful or some form of misclarity ie Wittgenstein's language game problems.


I declare myself as a Christian but to ignore ideas such as Descarte's evil demon or brain in a vat is just foolish. The possibility of a "mAtrix" battery hen existence is there WHATEVER I do, think, etc. I follow this faith because if there is no God, I'd be dead someday so it doesn't matter what I believe therefore I made no mistake OR looking at the evidence and religious claims, Christianity for me is the best choice.

My opinion therefore becomes: An atheist cannot get any benefit from their religion because if they are right they are dead with everyone else. I don't know how else to put it. i don't want to offend anyone but that's as far as my understanding goes.

So does anyone acknowledge the possibility/unlikeliness of a God or do you believe God's existence is 0% possible?

 

[Marril]

True in fact God doesn't speak to anyone in words until he returns.

If I may modify something I said above: "Absence of disproof is not disproof of absence."

My point is that it hasn't been proven a possibility in an objective sense, and we should not enter into discussion on the false pretense that it has. If we were to do so, then the entire discussion would be corrupted.

So does anyone acknowledge the possibility/unlikeliness of a God or do you believe God's existence is 0% possible?

I believe that in the Judeo-Christian sense of a deity, it is completely impossible.

 

[Magic_Umbreon]

Might I ask why not if you don't mind?

 

[Marril]

There's no rational reason to. The bible is easily traceable as little more than ancient stories (complete with pruning; look at any list of apocrypha to see what's left out of the biblical faith structure), and the currently observable feats attributed to its god are scientifically explainable—the big bang, accretion, abiogenesis, evolution, and so on are plausible scientific theories and require no belief in a supernatural creator. And even supposing that there is any god, the odds of the "right" one being the Christian god in light of the many other gods in human history seem pretty remote.

To me, taking Christianity as my serious belief would be like taking Scientology or the FSM (the two best "joke" religions I could think of offhand) as my serious belief.

 

[ZAKtheGeek]

My opinion therefore becomes: An atheist cannot get any benefit from their religion because if they are right they are dead with everyone else. I don't know how else to put it. i don't want to offend anyone but that's as far as my understanding goes.

And so I go deeper into depth.

Your understanding could definitely stand to expand some. Okay, so first off, you think there's some god judging you that will determine your afterlife, right? That in itself is silly. It's completely unprecedented, and basically impossible to prove at all due to its very nature. Any argument based off this assumption is automatically in the realm of "there's pretty much no chance of any of this ever happening anyway."

But let's ignore that. Let's assume that you're definitely being judged. Sucks for you, because you have no idea what you're being judged on. There's no reason to think any of the thousands of human religions have it right. Deciding that one of them will lead you to do the right stuff is a total shot in the dark; no matter what you pick, odds are, you're going to a bad, bad place.

And no, atheism isn't the "autofail" option here. That would assume that you're being judged on what gods you worship, but remember, you have no idea what the criteria are. Maybe an atheist could be rewarded in the afterlife for their intellectual honesty and search for truth in spite of its convenience or lack thereof. Maybe a theist of any sort would be punished simply for worshiping a false god, and the atheist spared for committing no such error. These are just examples; my point here is that, if you have no idea what you're being judged on, all bets are off and the atheist is no worse off than anyone else.

Again, that's all on the off off off off off off chance that there's an afterlife and yours is determined by your actions in the here and now.

 

[Marril]

Again, that's all on the off off off off off off chance that there's an afterlife and yours is determined by your actions in the here and now.

There's also the "chance" (and I use the term loosely) that it's like in the novel I'm writing, and your actions in life are completely irrelevant to your fate after death.

Too many unknowns to say how it is for "real", really.

 

[jkwarrior]

Science is perception. Perception neither proves nor disproves anything. If acid + alkali = neutral a billion times, it makes the N+1th time very likely but it COULD still not happen.

Whatever angle you look at it from, the possibility still remains?

I'm not saying what i just said is right at all, just what seemed to occur to me. I'm really open to anything anyone has to say. Particularly, there seems to be lots of people I talk to who deny God as a possibility which naturally strecthes the limits of tolerance. If they cannot understand why I believe in the possibility of a God and I cannot understand why they believe in the impossibility of a God then we can make no progress.


Discussion is discussion and it is VITAL for everyone's well being that we are open to opposite views. Afterall, if we are sure then what harm could it do. If we are not sure then surely doubt makes us aware we were only "sure" for the wrong reasons therefore a beneficial effect. This makes it a win-win situation unless both sides have adamant unchanging views in which case the conversation just ends on a respectful tone and we go do different things OR if one or both are immature/disrespectful or some form of misclarity ie Wittgenstein's language game problems.


I declare myself as a Christian but to ignore ideas such as Descarte's evil demon or brain in a vat is just foolish. The possibility of a "mAtrix" battery hen existence is there WHATEVER I do, think, etc. I follow this faith because if there is no God, I'd be dead someday so it doesn't matter what I believe therefore I made no mistake OR looking at the evidence and religious claims, Christianity for me is the best choice.

My opinion therefore becomes: An atheist cannot get any benefit from their religion because if they are right they are dead with everyone else. I don't know how else to put it. i don't want to offend anyone but that's as far as my understanding goes.

So does anyone acknowledge the possibility/unlikeliness of a God or do you believe God's existence is 0% possible?

No offense dude, but you might want to check your philosophy with scripture.

Whether we are perceived as intolerant or close-minded, it doesn't matter. As a proclaimed Christian believes in his faith alone. As far as a Christ-follower is concerned, there is no other option. You have accepted Christ in your heart. The Bible says that you are to die to yourself and follow Jesus. All the old is gone and you are made anew. There is no "possibility of your faith being wrong". If you do believe that your faith might be wrong...If you do believe in some sort of "Matrix" scenario, honestly I question your faith. You can't have partial faith.

 

[Flareon]

I believe that in the Judeo-Christian sense of a deity, it is completely impossible.

Without being able to prove absolutely how the universe began or where it all came from, how exactly can you come to the conclusion that anything is absolutely impossible?

 

[Magic_Umbreon]

Without being able to prove absolutely how the universe began or where it all came from, how exactly can you come to the conclusion that anything is absolutely impossible?

That was sort of my point. Finite chance Infinite reward = Worthwhile gamble ie Pascal's Wager.

How can a Xtian really be sure?

 

[PSYCO829]

That was sort of my point. Finite chance Infinite reward = Worthwhile gamble ie Pascal's Wager.

How can a Xtian really be sure?

time for some controversial thought
how do you know that when we die, lucifer doesnt judge us? the bible has been proven wrong in so many ways its ridiculous, why not onw more point that is wrong
how do you know that worshipping god wont condemn you to a fate worse than that of an atheist when you die?
simple, you dont

and using pascals wager as a source is silly, it was disproven many years ago
thats like me using the earth is flat as a source for a theory in physics

and please, dont post here saying that you know the bible to be true, you dont
no one does, so dont ruin the potential for a good coutner arguement by puting that in
thank you in advance

 

[Magic_Umbreon]

If the bible was proven wrong surely churched would be empty throughout the World.

 

[PSYCO829]

If the bible was proven wrong surely churched would be empty throughout the World.

people are too stuborn about there religious views to allow them to be spoiled by silly things like facts