Pokémon TCG: Sword and Shield—Brilliant Stars

Tricky vs. Deceptive Behavior (updated 2/12)

Darth: The fact is that if you're making ambiguous comments without naming a card, you're probably on the OK side of the line.
Note that I say "probably".
The reason is, and I've made this point before, that one wrong word in there or in response to a comment from your opponent, and suddenly you'll find that you have moved from being "cryptic" to "deceptive" and the moment you make that mistake, depending on what judge you happen to have behind you at the time, you're either going to get away with it, or get a DQ.

And so I ask again, is it worth it?
 
Ninetales even if you are not using straw men, which by the way I did not accuse you of. You are ignoring other's arguement. In particular when any weakness in yours is pointed out.

I called you out for condoning bullying. You even said that you would feel intimidated and used the very language that IS used to excuse bullying. I believe that you are wrong to use such language as an arguement in favour of your side and am disapointed that you will not admit to the error. I make mistakes all the time but I'm not so proud that I can't admit them.

In the post I made where I said your SUBSEQUENT posts look like you have taken on the role of a Troll you attempt to misdirect back to an earlier post. This is classic Troll behaviour.

Sorry but I'm not falling for it and I hope that no one else is either.

I know that you can make positive contributions if you choose, also that you often take the position of Devil's Advocate. So is the case that you are trying to defend so weak that you cannot come up with a decent arguement? It seems like it is.

Back to back posts merged. The following information has been added:

Darth:

If you are saying that a lot of deceptive behaviour is missed and/or goes unpunished then I agree with you.

If you are using this unfortunate fact as the premise to allow deceptive behaviour then I disagree with that direction for the game. I would rather catch some deceptive behaviour even if I fail to stop it all than just step back and open the flood gates.

Would I spot the raised indication of a card to imply a power spray? No idea on that. Would just raising a card be enough? Probably not, but is it worth the risk? Is it worth the risk because I am certain that the player would not like the outcome if I do call it deceptive behaviour. Note that it is not just what you are doing that matters. It is also the effect upon the opponent.
 
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PokePop said:
Darth: The fact is that if you're making ambiguous comments without naming a card, you're probably on the OK side of the line.
Note that I say "probably".
The reason is, and I've made this point before, that one wrong word in there or in response to a comment from your opponent, and suddenly you'll find that you have moved from being "cryptic" to "deceptive" and the moment you make that mistake, depending on what judge you happen to have behind you at the time, you're either going to get away with it, or get a DQ.

And so I ask again, is it worth it?
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It is quite easy to do that bluff(more of a little mind game really) with out actually ever saying anything. And if my opponent asks me about it, props to them for calling my bluff. I'm not going to go to the point of cheating, but a little bluffing adds a lot of fun to the game.
 
Mom, please don't go and try to make me look like the bad guy that picks on little kids for fun. :mad:

Just because YOU don't like a little friendly bluffing, dosen't mean its wrong. Many good players bluff, and weather you like it or not, it IS a part of the game. As long as it never gets to the point of being stupid, there is nothing wrong with a bluff every now and then.
 
I didn't know that there was a 'friendly' kind of bluffing? Bulf = bluf IMHO, and there is nothing friendly about it.

They arguably can't be good players if they resort to bluffing. HELLO KIDS GAME ALARM!
 
Darth I dont think 'mom is picking on you. I believe you are correct in that it is possible to have friendly bluffing, that it can enhance the enjoyment and fun. But both players do have to be enjoying the friendly bluff. In addition spectators and other competitors have to also be able to realise that both sides are happy and that if it was done to them they too would be happy with the friendly bluff and not feel deceived.

Your friendly bluff has to be achieved without sacrificing any of the qualities outlined in the SotG that POP wants us to adhere too.
 
I THINK I'VE FIGURED OUT WHY THERE'S SUCH DISAGREEMENT!!

We are ALL thinking up DIFFERENT scenarios!

  • Some of us are focused on CHILDREN playing.
  • Some of us are discussing Master vs. Master

BUT ...

NONE of us have really discussed the subjective nature of OUR OPPONENT and THEN discussed CONDITIONS/SITUATIONS that make the actions OK or NOT OK !

So... this may help the entire thread out a little.

I sat and contemplated my OWN play at States and considered this thread's topic again.
I joke around ALOT when I play with people. Whether I really know them or not. If they're not intense, I'm constantly goofing off... lol

I got to thinking about how many PENALTIES I could catch if other's around me were not familiar with my personality and took my words at FACE VALUE !! :eek:

NOW ... there is ONE PIECE that hasn't really been discussed.

IT DEPENDS ON YOUR OPPONENT: Sometimes, it just doesn't matter

Let's flip it around a minute.

This topic IS situational.

and .. Sometimes, it just doesn't matter.

If I'm playing my wife or someone from league, we may toss in some bluffing or whatever would otherwise be considered 'undesired sportsmanship' (like trash talking) BUT ... we'd be having fun.
If you and your oponent start getting a little silly during the game but there's a MUTUAL agreement about the gameplay, then... it's all about fun.

Noone is LETTING the other win.
Noone is cheating.
You're just having fun.

So.. using DarthPika's example with the condition of FRIENDLY/FAMILIAR OPPONENT in mind,
we get this.

Opponent: says "I'm thinking about dropping an Uxie here"
You say: "OH REALLY ... *holds up a card with evil grin*"
Opponent says: "you'd better NOT have that spray man! ahahahaha! Hmmm ... I'll take my chances. Setup!"

The two are having fun, but they're doing this to each other and they've added a component to THAT game that COULD be called out but since the SPIRIT is GOOD, there's really no harm done.
Both players are willing to live with the outcome of the game whether additional advantages were gained through their "fun little bluffing component" or not.

Does that twist your head up a little?
I KNOW you kind of understand where I'm coming from there though...

I think this is where our disagreement is coming from. The simple fact is, the actions would bother/affect some people while others wouldn't be affected AT ALL. They would simply play how they play REGARDLESS of what you do. Some would even APPRECIATE a little tricky twist or two to keep the game interesting.

The rules are in place to keep things fair and as FREE from disagreement as possible.
If they're both having fun and in agreement with whatever is occuring AND are cool with the outcome, then fun is had and there's no harm done. BUT that's MATCH SPECIFIC and really depends on who your opponent is.

I think THAT's the position that is missing in this entire thread. and THAT's where the tension is coming from.

Some things you just do IN GOOD FUN and there's no intention to be malicious or underhanded at all. Some actions that would, otherwise, be considered outside the boundaries of SOTG are fine when you and your opponent know each other and have an understanding for each other's play.

Another Example: When I'm playing in a tournament against someone from my own league, we get silly and do things like misannounce powers and attacks intentionally in an effort to be Jovial (aka.. kidding around). We still make plays according to the rules, but I couldn't say something like "I'll telepass your Cosmic Power and I'll PASS for the Knockout" to a perfect stranger without him being bothered or thinking I'm up to no good.


So .. i guess...

If you're having fun with someone you know (or are just getting along well with) and there's sort of an "unwritten agreement" as to how your match is being played, then.. no judge will be called and no REAL advantage is gained because your opponent is having fun with the little bluffs or whatever else.

No game mechanics have been ignored. They're just having fun.

I think THAT's what is on the "Pro" side's minds.

If DarthPika held up that card against a perfect stranger and that person called over a judge, he'd be penalized for deceptive actions not fitting within the boundaries of SOTG.

If Darth and I were having fun and doing this to each other. Although not encouraged, but we're "allowing" it and mutually participating, neither is bothered, and both are mutually cool with the game's outcome, then... no harm done. No need for a ruling. We're just playing.

(is THAT sort of where you were going with that DarthPika?)

So...

As they taught me in School Law:

"The answer ALL of your questions is... It depends.
 
RA: I get what you are saying, but please understand....even between friends, if the "act" is unsporting, it shouldn't be done.

I recall judging MAs @ Worlds 08, swiss rd between Gino and Drew G (DarkTwins). They are from the same general area, know each other and have played before. As a judge, I swing around and observe from a distance....NO activity. Just 2 players sitting there, no supporters in play, time was started 6 mins before, no search of the deck....just pure "bhudda mode" thinking by both. After doing a silent count to self of 20 secs, no one had progressed the gamestate. I leaned in, asked whose turn it was (Gino's) and told him to make a timely move now. A verbal prompt...no penalty, just a verbal prompt. Drew says...."he isn't playing slow, I know him, he wouldnt do that to me, I am OK with the pace of play so far". I look at Drew and tell him it doesn't matter to the rules who you are playing, simply that slow play is occuring.

So, no, just bc you are "goofing off" with your friend doesn't mean I as a judge cannot penalize an act that violates the rules bc "you" are "OK with it". Now, Judges will look to see if a player seems to be in a strained position to signal thru body language that their oppo MAY be slowplaying them. Everyone has seen the exasperated looks of a player being slow played to death.

Keith
 
NO. Rule breaking is not allowed under any circumstance. Neither is stalling (whether intentional or not because it LIMITS the other guys opportunity to advance).

Yeah. I figured I wasn't being clear there.

I'm talking STRICKLY about the Sportsmanship piece.
Meaning, both players are playing at a desired pace and according to the game's required mechanics.
The gamestate is advancing just fine. The players are just being silly and having fun WHILE they're playing.

i.e.
"Draw a card... OOOOO ... I'm about to get you now partner! Wait till you see this hott little combo!"

Now, ordinarily that COULD be viewed as unsportsmanlike conduct (i.e. smack talking). But, if both players are friendly and commonly engage in this sort of behavior in a FUN way where neither is offended or bothered and , in fact, PREFER it ... then... the judge can move on to another table.

There are other fires to put out.

It's just a matter of being practical at that point.

You as well as anyone knows, you choose your battles in this case.
 
There's ALWAYS bluff involved. A simple example is Marley's Request. Lets say you have a 120 HP Pokemon up front, and I have Regigigas X. I play Marley's Request, taking Pluspower and Luxury Ball. The bluff here is simple - I could hold a second copy of pluspower in my hand. This is just a very tiny example, but one that comes up with Marley players.
Now there's a line between bluffing and decieving. DarthPika's original Power Spray example, I would call pure manipulative deception. And on a tourney where I judge, I wouldn't allow it. But certain other things, they shouldn't be hammered down on. Body language for one. If I slump down, you'd think I have a bad hand. This will probably prompt you into a different play as when I look all chipper and happy.
Pokemom, I ask you this. If I slump down despite having a GOD hand, would you penalize me? Would you go THAT far?
 
RA: There is a difference in both players joshing with each other and playing at a lively pace and no issues. No problem with that at all. We are there to have fun!

Now, even with that said, each player has the right to play in an enviroment that is not disruptive to their game. If you 2 are goofing around in a lively and fun match, but your frivolity is disruptring player C (lets call him Rodin's the Thinker)
at the next match over, same table....then I will tell you 2 jokesters to lower the volume a bit.

Keith
 
Scipio said:
There's ALWAYS bluff involved. A simple example is Marley's Request. Lets say you have a 120 HP Pokemon up front, and I have Regigigas X. I play Marley's Request, taking Pluspower and Luxury Ball. The bluff here is simple - I could hold a second copy of pluspower in my hand. This is just a very tiny example, but one that comes up with Marley players.
Click to expand...
That is not a bluff. That is a smart play. Don't confuse the two.
The bluff would be, when you are choosing what cards for your opponent to pick for Marley's Request, you pick Card A eagerly or thoughtfully as if that is the card you really want, and then pick Card B with carelessness as if that is a card you don't care about (and therefore don't actually want but chose it because you had to pick something), when the goal is to get the opponent to choose Card B (the one you chose with carelessness as if you didn't want it) gambling that the opponent will erroneously attempt to read your displays and apply psychology. You are making a display of false confidence and weakness in your selections.
 
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ShadowCard said:
That is not a bluff. That is a smart play. Don't confuse the two.
The bluff would be, when you are choosing what cards for your opponent to pick for Marley's Request, you pick Card A eagerly or thoughtfully as if that is the card you really want, and then pick Card B with carelessness as if that is a card you don't care about, when the goal is to get the opponent to choose Card B gambling that the opponent will erroneously attempt to read your displays and apply psychology.
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and can a judge call you on that? I doubt it, theres absoletly no proof of deception. So how would a situation like that be handled.
 
i've never had to resort to bluffing to win a pokemon match.
i playfully act as though an opponent's move has hindered my set up, when in all reality i had planned for them to do the move they did.
honestly though, if you fall for a bluff, it's no ones fault but yours. get better at pokemon.

also to the random scrub saying that the pokemon playerbase is trash : leave your garbage state and come to an event in FL, we'll show you how bad we are at this game. good luck trying to bluff a silvestro.
 
The Captain said:
and can a judge call you on that? I doubt it, theres absoletly no proof of deception. So how would a situation like that be handled.
Click to expand...

Sure, if a judge happens to see it and recognize it for what is is (like Lawman's example above), but very few tournaments can have such active judging. Not much chance if it is just word against word.
 
Scipio said:
... If I slump down despite having a GOD hand, would you penalize me? Would you go THAT far?
Click to expand...

NO JUDGE HAS TIME TO BE KNIT-PICKY!

That's what Nick "Ninetales" was saying.

If you're trying to contain your excitement by giving a gesture/facial expression opposite to the impression you want to give. That's different.

That's not even deceptive. Because your opponent won't change their entire next move based on that slump.. lol Your opponent is too busy trying to set up his/her offensive to worry about whether you think you have a great hand or not. People keep giving the "aw man" or "YES!" gesture examples....

Stop that. No judge in this thread (including me... *yeah... i'm one too... lol* ) would go as far as to just SEEK AND DESTROY ALL MANNERISMS, GESTURES, EXPRESSIONS, and Emotionally suggestive movements ..

c'mon ... let's stop taking that tangent.

The topic of this thread is STILL concerning DELIBERATE acts of WRONG DOING.

If you're playing your cards, and you're not giving INTENTIONAL false information, then you're fine man. Saying "OH MY GOD!" in disgust after you cosmic power for that NEEDED energy card is not malicious underhandedness....

We keep giving examples of DECEPTIVE play.

MORE examples:

  • Using a translation for a card that is NOT in your deck (such as Dark Palm)
  • INTENTIONALLY allowing your opponent to misplay so you can call over a judge for a major penalty
  • "forgetting" or "being confused" about your attacks and powers in order to gain an advantage (i.e. Starks Mountain from your Machamp TO your Uxie LvX and pretending your didn't know you couldn't do that IF you get caught)
  • Waiting for your opponent to call a power. You hold up a card and say "you sure you want to do that?" to suggest you're about to spray the power when you do not have the power spray card in hand.
  • Calling your opponents attack to rush them into a misplay. i.e. "You gonna Deep Balance for 40 ?" (to keep him from thinking about using Psychic Lock with the benched Gardy)

Do you see that's a far cry from "Not Again!" after a Time Walk search?
 
baby mario said:
It's worse in Seniors when you can have a 15 year old trying to intimidate an 11 year old who is much smaller than them.

I have seen it happen :frown:
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whatever what if the 11 year old scares a judge!!!

jk

well this game wasn't designed for bluffing and stuff so there end of discussion...

Show me one place in the rules where it staes you CAN bluff!!
 
Rogue Archetype said:
If you're trying to contain your excitement by giving a gesture/facial expression opposite to the impression you want to give. That's different.

That's not even deceptive. Because your opponent won't change their entire next move based on that slump.. lol Your opponent is too busy trying to set up his/her offensive to worry about whether you think you have a great hand or not. People keep giving the "aw man" or "YES!" gesture examples....
Click to expand...
RA, that slump is all the opponent needs to build his/her strategy. You are displaying that you are not ready for what the opponent may have. That will change the way the opponent plays, perhaps make him/her a little more bold or let the opponent know he/she still has time to build his/her side of the field.
 
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