Two on Two Play with E-On Cards

Discussion in 'Cards: Strategy and Rulings Discussion' started by PokePop, Nov 2, 2003.

  1. PokePop

    PokePop Administrator

    Two on Two Play with Older Cards

    While Two on Two play is not a sanctioned format yet, it probably will be at some time in the future and people are certainly playing the format unofficially.

    Toward that end, we started discussing with PUI the interaction of older cards with that format. Unfortunately, since the Japanese Makers of the card game designed 2-on-2 specifically for play with R&S cards forward, there is little to no direction for using the older cards. Their recommendation would be to mandate an Ex-on format for it.

    We thought it would be worthwhile to get some player input, though, on how older cards should work in this format, if they were allowed.

    The point of discussion we'd like to start with is choice of targets for effects. If there are any other points that you would like to bring up (cards that are horribly broken or confusing in this format, for example), feel free. This is to be a wide open discussion of the 2-on-2 format and what you would like to see or not like to see and how it should work in competitive play.

    Now for the first point:

    How should effects (from Attacks/Trainers/Pokemon Powers) that target an Active Pokemon be applied?

    1. Active Player chooses both
    2. Each Players chooses for their Actives
    3. Each Active is affected (Active and/or Defending, as appropriate)

    Now, for most Attacks, it will reference the Attacking Pokemon and the Defending Pokemon, so that will be pretty clear. The Active Player has chosen which Pokemon fill those rolls. However, if you take a Trainer like Super Energy Removal 2, it references the Defending Pokemon and the Attacking Pokemon.
    Does that mean that once the player designates those two for the sake of the Trainer, they are now stuck with them when it comes time to actually attack? Or can they choose both and they choose a different two at the Attack step?
    Or does the Defending player get to choose which one of his Actives loses their energy?

    And that's just one card.

    Here's your chance for some major input people. Let's hear your thoughts.
     
    Last edited: Nov 2, 2003
  2. Dek

    Dek New Member

    Most likely, Attacks/Trainers/Poke-Powers/Bodies should only affect the Defending Pokemon that you choose to attack. The thing that we must remember is that some attacks in EX-ON say "choose one if there are 2." Most likely, this 2v2 effect will take part in the older cards. The only thing im worried is what teh plural for Pokemon is :lol:

    With that in mind, using the example you used (Super Energy Removal 2), I think it will only affect just one Defending Pokemon.
     
  3. PokePop

    PokePop Administrator

     
  4. Dek

    Dek New Member

    yes, you would have to force the attack at teh end of your turn (at least thats what im getting from the information given).
     
  5. Porygon3

    Porygon3 New Member

    What would Ditto become?
     
  6. PokePop

    PokePop Administrator

    Ditto... I forgot to mention, this would be E-on at best. Non-Modified cards were left out of Team Format for the same reason. Cards like Ditto are nightmares in these types of things.
     
  7. Sensei

    Sensei Team Compendium Emeritus Staff Member Trader Feedback Mod

    Well,for Super Energy Removal 2,I think it`s clear from past rulings and gameplay that it only affects 1 Active and 1 Defending Pokemon.The templating was made before EX Ruby/2-on-2 and therefore would explain why it`s not clear.Furthermore,going along with past rulings and such,the person playing the trainer(using this card mind you) gets to choose which active and which defending pokemon this card affects.

    As for once you designate which defending Pokemon it affects would that Pokemon now be "forced" to be the "defending Pokemon" that you "must" attack?There was a ruling from the MT`s(It must have slipped through our rulings since I couldn`t find it on the Compendium) that,in Team Play,once you designated who was the "defending Pokemon" due to a trainer or Pokemon Power,that person(aka defending Pokemon chosen) is the one you had to attack during your attack sequence which I think is correct in this situation as well.

    `Sensei
     
    Last edited: Nov 2, 2003
  8. Kyfogre22

    Kyfogre22 New Member

    IMO, it shouldn't matter what kind of card it is, unless it specefies otherwise, it only affects one target.
     
  9. Skantid

    Skantid New Member

    -Porygon3-
    I've been testing 2on2 with older cards during the last few months and most players here agree that ditto copies the last pokemon that attacked him or the last pokemon he performed an attack against.

    IE: (Player A has Ditto active; player B has a Skyridge Xatu and a Cleffa)
    T1-Player A attacks Xatu, damage is doubled because Xatu has a psychic weakness, so Xatu ends up with 20 hp left.
    T2-Player B attacks Ditto using Xatu, same situation as above.
    T3-Player A attacks Xatu again, knocks him out, and draws a prize.
    T4-Player B uses Cleffa's "Eeeeeeek" attack, and flips a coin because both Cleffa and Ditto(transformed) are baby Pokémon. If the flip results in heads, Ditto is knocked out (there are 6 damage counters on him but his "max" HP is now 30).

    So, if any of you would like to use this unofficial rule, remember Ditto can be easily killed on 2on2...
     
    Last edited: Nov 2, 2003
  10. ShadowCard

    ShadowCard Active Member

    ick, fossil Ditto rulings. Would the Ditto controller get to choose the pokemon they wish to copy? Then if they wanted to, they could switch which pokemon ditto is?
    say only Ditto (fossil) is against Caterpie and Weedle, with a Metapod on the bench, Ditto is Weedle. Weedle becomes Koed and Metapod becomes an active along side Caterpie. Ditto can then become Caterpie or Metapod.
    Wouldn't that be correct?
     
  11. GuardianTIM

    GuardianTIM New Member

    Personally, I think that if it's an attack, then any other effects of the attack which say "the defending pokemon" refer to the one that's being targetted for the attack.
    For example, let's use the Aquapolis Flaafy. It's first attack is called Thundershock, which does 10 damage, and if you flip heads, the defending pokemon is now paralysed.
    Exactly how much sense would it make if one of their pokemon was hit by the attack's electricity and took damage, and the other one was not hit by electricity and was shocked into paralysis???

    ***

    About the Ditto, I consider that we might play it so that the person who controls Ditto can change it's form at the beginning of each players turn, or when someone switches a pokemon (other than Ditto's partner).
    So if my opponent had an Abra and a Bayleef, and I had a Croconaw and a Ditto, if A,B, or D retreated, then Ditto would change, but if C retreated, Ditto would stay the same.

    ***

    About Trainers and the like forcing you to choose which pokemon to attack, I disagree. I think that if I were to play Gust of Wind on my opponents pokemon, I shouldn't be forced to attack that one. I say while you're working through each individual trainer/attack, then the chosen 'Defending pokemon' would stay the same, but you should be free to choose for separate effects. After all, what if I had 2 Gust of Wind's??? Would this mean I can't play my second Gust immediately afterwards to switch their other pokemon?

    ***

    Anyway, that's what I think... does it make any sense?
     
  12. PokePop

    PokePop Administrator

    GuardianTIM: Yes, I agree with everything you've said.

    Just one thing:
    No Ditto!

    If we were to allow Ditto into a format like this, we'd be discussing the ins and outs of just that one card forever.

    Let's stick with E-On cards to make the discussion more managable.
     
  13. Fantasy Fox

    Fantasy Fox New Member

    What are E-On cards?
    Is it Ruby & Saphire onwards or Expedtition onwards?
     
  14. PokePop

    PokePop Administrator

    "E-on" refers to Expedition and on.
    "EX-on" refers to EX:R&S and on.
     
    Last edited: Nov 3, 2003
  15. Porygon3

    Porygon3 New Member

    brocks ninetails... oh sorry couldnt help myself.
    actualy, I dont see much of a problem with alot of the older cards, although "the defending pokemon" is only one, and Pokemon powers would have to target one pokemon only, trainers would effect one pokemon unless worded otherwise, like the dual-full heal, Healing feilds would target only one active once, since the one retreat per turn rull is in effect rullings on marage statum and the two difernt active pokemon retreating is non excant, however, most stadum's would be global, for example broken ground gym and rockets training gym would effect every actvie pokemon, however there are some powers that effected the defending pokemon that COULD effect both; like Dark Muk's power, and there is that other grass pokemon (that spider thing) that gave the defending pokemon +1 retreat cost, I'm just using these as examples of where a power could effect both pokemon, since its not really a targeted effect, but you would have to define target effect, like gust of wind, or switch, these are basic no brainers.
    humm I think you could use the fighting Nidokings power twice if you had two active... nice!!
    I dont see any problems in E-on 2vs2 as of the moment.
     
  16. Spectreon

    Spectreon New Member

    for fun along time ago, way back when, well before Wizards announced team multi player, some of my friends and I used to play a simular format. We basically made Ditto as much of a weakness as a strength.

    Dittos Rules were simple enough, Ditto becomes, and stays whatever Pokemon it attacks, or is attacking it. If you atttack a Charizard, then untill an opponent attacks it, or you attack a different Pokemon Ditto remains a Zard. Usually all you had to do was 30 damage to a Ditto, then declare an attack with a baby, Ditto gets KOed, and you continue the attack as normal....... easily allowing your opponents to KO it
     
  17. Fantasy Fox

    Fantasy Fox New Member

    Well, how about Ditto from Skyridge?

    Copy
    Choose 1 of the Defending Pokémon’s attacks. Copy copies that attack. This attack does nothing if Ditto doesn’t have the Energy necessary to use that attack. (You must still do anything else required in order to use that attack.)

    Situation

    Player A has Ditto as active. Player B has Cleffa and Charizard as actives. Can Player A copy Cleffa's attack and use it on Charizard?
    I don't really think so...anyway what do you think?
     
    Last edited: Nov 4, 2003
  18. BJJ763

    BJJ763 Trading Mod Supervisor Staff Member Trader Feedback Mod

    Since Ditto is copying the Defending Pokémon's attack, Ditto must attack that Pokémon. Ditto could not attack Charizard using Cleffa's attack (or vice versa).

    And for Fossil Ditto, why would the Attacking Pokémon effect Ditto? Ditto is a copy of the Defending Pokémon, so damaging it and then attacking it with a Cleffa should not effect Ditto at all. Ditto becomes the Defending Pokémon, so it becomes whatever it attacks, not whatever attacks it.
     
  19. PokePop

    PokePop Administrator

    Good points on the Skyridge Ditto. I hadn't considered that.

    But again, let's leave Fossil Ditto out of this discussion since there is no way PUI is going to create a format that goes back all the way to fossil!
     
  20. NoPoke

    NoPoke New Member

    From the rulebook for 2-on-2 play...

    1) You chose one of your pokémon to attack
    2) Select the attack you want to use.
    3) Chose one of your opponents active Pokémon to attack.
    4) Complete the attack.

    Attacks that refer to 'each defending Pokémon' will affect both of the defending pokemon.

    Though not explicitly stated it seems that the 'defending pokemon' is determined at point 3 above. So if Sky Ditto copies an EeeeeeK then it is also attacking that Cleffa, and the baby flip cannot be avoided.


    For activated pokemon powers and trainers I believe that any selection of 'the defending pokemon' is only while the effect of the power or trainer is being resolved. So you can use multiple AQ Vileplume's poison Scent power to poison both defending pokemon.


    For contiuous PokeBodies it gets harder.. and there are multiple options. Consider Octillaries Suction Cups

    several options..

    1) 'the Defending Pokémon' is resolved once when Octillary becomes active.
    2) 'the Defending Pokémon' resolves when Octillary attacks.
    3) A combination of 1) and 2)
    4) all 'Defending Pokémon' are always affected

    Option 1) is the safe bet as it is the least powerfull and least likely to result in a broken combo. Option 4) is the most powerfuyll and hence most likely to result in a broken combo.

    I am attracted tothe idea that pokemon powers can place effects when they resolve and am attracted to option 2. However this is different from the normal one-on-one game and so I end up favouring option 3.
     

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