Unlimited Ratings
- Thread starter PokePop
- Start date
- Status
Otaku
Active Member
Yet another CotD writer's perspective.
I wish to weigh in on this discussion.
First, I think the rating system needs some slight revisions. I'd score Gust of Wind as a 10/10, but I usually don't run four copies. No room, and good players don't usually have that many Prizes I can "steal" by playing it. An Energy Removal on the Active might be better. For that matter I usually just stick to Super Energy Removal in Unlimited play, though perhaps it has changed enough since I last played that I could no longer get away with that.
Regardless, I do agree that a 1/10s should be rarely given. Even in the case of a card like Pokemon Reversal, it has some use in Unlimited. That being said I don't know if I'd even give it more than a 3/10. Besides four copies of Gust of Wind, you have other alternatives like Double Gust, Pow! Hand Extension, and even Warp Point to consider, plus what you're likely already running: Item Finder! For me I learned it was more practical to max out Item Finder and Computer Search than run four of all the "best" Trainers. What are the odds I'd need to GoW out six Prizes? If I need that much, I might as well dedicate the space to an Evolution line with a re-usable Gust effect: at least then I can get around Slowking and friends!
When I score a card, I try to look at a) what job is it supposed to do and b) how well does it do it? I don't limit card to 10/10 (well, I do here but I wouldn't if I had my way) because I've played games like Yu-Gi-Oh where Broken/10 needs to be a real rating: some cards are just too powerful. There will already be the "perfect" version of that support; highly effective and fairly priced, but something that overly compensates you gets released.
So our example, Pokemon Reversal, is not even half as good as Gust of Wind: just because you have a 50% chance of it succeeding and essentially having the same effect, doesn't mean that makes it half as good. Reliability matters.
As for newer players having to settle for newer cards to replace older staples... that doesn't make the replacements better, though it does help justify taking time to properly score them. Maybe the best option still isn't needed in all decks, only most decks. Maybe it is essential only to its own category of decks. The score reflects that. The next best options I then score based on how well I perceive them performing. If they are almost as good as the best, they deserve to score almost as high. If they are worse, but still functional, again they'll receive a numerical score reflecting this. If they are flawed, but would still accomplish something, they'll still get a point or two. Only if they are abysmal, then do they receive a 1/10.
I wish to weigh in on this discussion.
First, I think the rating system needs some slight revisions. I'd score Gust of Wind as a 10/10, but I usually don't run four copies. No room, and good players don't usually have that many Prizes I can "steal" by playing it. An Energy Removal on the Active might be better. For that matter I usually just stick to Super Energy Removal in Unlimited play, though perhaps it has changed enough since I last played that I could no longer get away with that.
Regardless, I do agree that a 1/10s should be rarely given. Even in the case of a card like Pokemon Reversal, it has some use in Unlimited. That being said I don't know if I'd even give it more than a 3/10. Besides four copies of Gust of Wind, you have other alternatives like Double Gust, Pow! Hand Extension, and even Warp Point to consider, plus what you're likely already running: Item Finder! For me I learned it was more practical to max out Item Finder and Computer Search than run four of all the "best" Trainers. What are the odds I'd need to GoW out six Prizes? If I need that much, I might as well dedicate the space to an Evolution line with a re-usable Gust effect: at least then I can get around Slowking and friends!
When I score a card, I try to look at a) what job is it supposed to do and b) how well does it do it? I don't limit card to 10/10 (well, I do here but I wouldn't if I had my way) because I've played games like Yu-Gi-Oh where Broken/10 needs to be a real rating: some cards are just too powerful. There will already be the "perfect" version of that support; highly effective and fairly priced, but something that overly compensates you gets released.
So our example, Pokemon Reversal, is not even half as good as Gust of Wind: just because you have a 50% chance of it succeeding and essentially having the same effect, doesn't mean that makes it half as good. Reliability matters.
As for newer players having to settle for newer cards to replace older staples... that doesn't make the replacements better, though it does help justify taking time to properly score them. Maybe the best option still isn't needed in all decks, only most decks. Maybe it is essential only to its own category of decks. The score reflects that. The next best options I then score based on how well I perceive them performing. If they are almost as good as the best, they deserve to score almost as high. If they are worse, but still functional, again they'll receive a numerical score reflecting this. If they are flawed, but would still accomplish something, they'll still get a point or two. Only if they are abysmal, then do they receive a 1/10.
prodigal_fanboy
New Member
No, because GOW and Pokemon Reversal are not mutually exclusive cards. If you only had four slots to dedicate to bench-targeting effects, then you would choose 4 GOW over 4 Reversals, obviously.
But suppose you had eight slots? Six? Five? Just like 4 Celio's 1 Bebe's, you might pack in the slightly worse option merely to give you extra means to hit that effect.
Another solid counter-example would be Pokeblower+ relative to GOW. GOW is better (2 cards is worse than 1) at targeting the bench, in terms of costing, however in a format where reliably hitting two trainer cards isn't as difficult (well, maybe a bit more so now that they nerfed Bill), how much harder is it? If you give it a 1/10 as absolutely useless, does that mean the flip for damage effect is never used?
tl;dr, 1/10 merely because better options exist assumes 4 slots per effect. It's like saying you shouldn't run Seeker in Luxchomp because Poketurn does the same thing but better (granted, this isn't ENTIRELY true -- Seeker can pick up Uxies and whatnot). Not that you should run Seeker in Luxchomp necessarily, just saying you can run 4 Poketurn and 1 Seeker if you chose.
Otaku
Active Member
prodigal fanboy: I am not following your argument exactly. First, the quote belonging to yoyofsho16. An "infinite" card pool is assumed when reviewing because if we reviewed cards based on what everybody had... Potion would become a 10/10. Infinite might be a bad word: we aren't talking illegally running 6 Gust of Wind (except in Limited where that could be an expensive option). I'll say "perfect" since having a maximum number of every card available is indeed a perfect card pool to draw from.
By the logic we should we should up a card's score because it is a more readily available but inferior version of an older "power card", then we must downgrade a card's score based on its rarity: if only one person can play it, of course it's a 1/10, right? That is how rating something based on rarity pans out.
One can try to predict a "reasonable" card pool, but Pokemon cards usually aren't "that" rare. Yes, we have had some really, really annoying rarities in the last few years, but thankfully maybe one or two cards were extremely rare but also really good, like Time Space Distortion. Even with things like Pokemon ex, Level X, etc. we can hope for tin re-releases and the like to make them more readily available. You also must remember that even if you lack a card, your opponent may have it and thus you need an accurate idea of how good it is.
If you read the thread, you would notice we have named several Gust of Wind derived cards besides Pokemon Reversal. Cards that are available to play in the Unlimited format. The best doesn't even have a "Gust" effect: Item Finder. If you're not maxing out both Gust of Wind and Item Finder and you find you need to "Gust" more often, that is the logical choice: in those matches you don't need to use Gust of Wind more than four times, you can recycle some other Trainer that is needed. If you really need it, then that is what Item Finder is for, giving you an effective eight copies of Gust of Wind.
If you need so much Bench Manipulation then look at running a Pokemon with a Pokemon Power that can do it repeatedly for free for you! Thanks to the probable bench sitters of Slowking or any of the Trainer blocking Vileplumes or even good old Chaos Gym... well those are probably why you're going through so many Gust of Wind anyway. Might as well bypass the problem all together. If I am relying on a coin flip, I'd rather risk a tech Stage 2 line for the same number of slots in the deck but as many Pokemon Reversal-like effects as I have turns!
Basically, if you need more "Gust of Wind" than four but can't justify running a Pokemon (you just need a fifth or sixth), you have the following options to consider before Pokemon Reversal:
1) Item Finder/Junk Arm
2) Double Gust
3) Poke Blower +
4) Pow! Hand Extension
In closing
You can't predict every player and their opponent's card pool, so scores have to be given based on whatever someone could have, not what they actually can easily get. That is why a "perfect" card pool is assumed.
The argument for Pokemon Reversal in particular scoring much higher than a 1/10 seems to ignore all the alternatives available to it. It isn't your second choice... it is your sixth choice for adding more Gust of Wind like cards to your deck. Only in some bizarre, hypothetical deck where you need more than four Gust of Wind, can't afford the discards for Item Finder/Junk Arm, apparently have a full Bench without free retreat costs and are unable to run Switch/Balloon Berry to still abuse Double Gust, have no room to incorporate a Pokemon with a Gust of Wind or Pokemon Reversal style Pokemon Power, don't have enough draw power to run PokeBlower+, and despite all that are still consistently remaining ahead on Prizes enough that Pow! Hand Extension won't work either...
At last you should run Pokemon Reversal. Or if you just lack any of the above options. Either way, that looks like an Unlimited rating of 1-3/10 to me. Pokemon Reversal may be a Gust of Wind "half the time" but that doesn't mean it is half as good. Would you pay even half price for something that you knew, through no external influence, would fail you half the time?
By the logic we should we should up a card's score because it is a more readily available but inferior version of an older "power card", then we must downgrade a card's score based on its rarity: if only one person can play it, of course it's a 1/10, right? That is how rating something based on rarity pans out.
One can try to predict a "reasonable" card pool, but Pokemon cards usually aren't "that" rare. Yes, we have had some really, really annoying rarities in the last few years, but thankfully maybe one or two cards were extremely rare but also really good, like Time Space Distortion. Even with things like Pokemon ex, Level X, etc. we can hope for tin re-releases and the like to make them more readily available. You also must remember that even if you lack a card, your opponent may have it and thus you need an accurate idea of how good it is.
If you read the thread, you would notice we have named several Gust of Wind derived cards besides Pokemon Reversal. Cards that are available to play in the Unlimited format. The best doesn't even have a "Gust" effect: Item Finder. If you're not maxing out both Gust of Wind and Item Finder and you find you need to "Gust" more often, that is the logical choice: in those matches you don't need to use Gust of Wind more than four times, you can recycle some other Trainer that is needed. If you really need it, then that is what Item Finder is for, giving you an effective eight copies of Gust of Wind.
If you need so much Bench Manipulation then look at running a Pokemon with a Pokemon Power that can do it repeatedly for free for you! Thanks to the probable bench sitters of Slowking or any of the Trainer blocking Vileplumes or even good old Chaos Gym... well those are probably why you're going through so many Gust of Wind anyway. Might as well bypass the problem all together. If I am relying on a coin flip, I'd rather risk a tech Stage 2 line for the same number of slots in the deck but as many Pokemon Reversal-like effects as I have turns!
Basically, if you need more "Gust of Wind" than four but can't justify running a Pokemon (you just need a fifth or sixth), you have the following options to consider before Pokemon Reversal:
1) Item Finder/Junk Arm
2) Double Gust
3) Poke Blower +
4) Pow! Hand Extension
In closing
You can't predict every player and their opponent's card pool, so scores have to be given based on whatever someone could have, not what they actually can easily get. That is why a "perfect" card pool is assumed.
The argument for Pokemon Reversal in particular scoring much higher than a 1/10 seems to ignore all the alternatives available to it. It isn't your second choice... it is your sixth choice for adding more Gust of Wind like cards to your deck. Only in some bizarre, hypothetical deck where you need more than four Gust of Wind, can't afford the discards for Item Finder/Junk Arm, apparently have a full Bench without free retreat costs and are unable to run Switch/Balloon Berry to still abuse Double Gust, have no room to incorporate a Pokemon with a Gust of Wind or Pokemon Reversal style Pokemon Power, don't have enough draw power to run PokeBlower+, and despite all that are still consistently remaining ahead on Prizes enough that Pow! Hand Extension won't work either...
At last you should run Pokemon Reversal. Or if you just lack any of the above options. Either way, that looks like an Unlimited rating of 1-3/10 to me. Pokemon Reversal may be a Gust of Wind "half the time" but that doesn't mean it is half as good. Would you pay even half price for something that you knew, through no external influence, would fail you half the time?
Last edited:
prodigal_fanboy
New Member
Edit: oh, I see you thought my "no" was at the hypothetical infinite card-pool assumption. I just didn't bother snipping Yoyo's quote to the second statement only.
However, I'll state this. I'm not arguing that Reversal is good. Or that you should be running it over other options. Merely that there ARE select instances in deck-building when you could justify it's inclusion. There are other costs to the better alternatives, and while they might on the whole be mild (especially considering the power level similarities between Unlimited and Vintage) enough to where running Reversal isn't justifiable, it doesn't mean 1/10. 2/10 tops, probably, as if you're willing to dedicate your Item Finders to GoW exclusively then you should not be running Reversal.
A simpler version of my argument is that just because you can run Shock does not mean you cannot also run Seal of Fire.
- Status