BW-on Vortex Diving (Advice Appreciated)

[Godzfirefly]

This deck is based on Plasma Freeze Kingdra and its Dragon Vortex attack. It's meant to be reminiscent of the old Kingdra decks from Legends Awakened.

VERSION 3

Pokémon:
3 Horsea (PF)
3 Kingdra (PF)
2 Piplup (DEX)
1 Prinplup (DEX)
2 Empoleon (DEX)
2 Emolga (DrX)
4 Lapras (ND)
17 Pokémon Total


Items:
4 Rare Candy
4 Ultra Ball
4 Pokémon Catcher
2 Super Rod
1 Computer Search
2 Max Potion
17 Items Total


Supporters:
4 Professor Juniper
4 Colress
2 Skyla
10 Supporters Total


Energy:
16 Water
16 Energy Total.

This deck's strategy is simple. Step 1) Get out Empoleon on the Bench to establish effective card draw and Energy cycling. Step 2) Get out Kingdra to use Dragon Vortex. If necessary, have Kingdra use Tri Pallet to knock a few Bench Sitters. And, Empoleon can use his Attack Command in a pinch.

Kingdra 140 HP

:colorless: Dragon Vortex 20x
Shuffle all basic :water: and basic :lightning: Energy cards from your discard pile into your deck. This attack does 20 damage for each Energy card shuffled into your deck this way.

:water: Tri Pallet
This attack does 30 damage to 3 of your opponent's Pokémon. (Don't apply Weakness and Resistance for Benched Pokémon.)

Weakness (Dragon)x2 Resistance: None Retreat Cost: :colorless:

Empoleon 140 HP

Ability: Diving Draw
Once during your turn (before your attack), you may discard a card from your hand. If you do, draw 2 cards.

:water: Attack Command 10x
Does 10 damage times the number of Pokémon in play (both yours and your opponent's).

Weakness: :lightning:x2 Resistance: None Retreat Cost: :colorless::colorless:

Thundurus 110 HP

:colorless: Charge
Search your deck for a Energy card and attach it to this Pokémon. Shuffle your deck afterward.

:lightning::lightning::colorless: Disaster Volt 80
Discard an Energy attached to this Pokémon.

Weakness: :fighting:x2 Resistance: None Retreat Cost: :colorless:

 

[Swordfish1989]

You have way too many strategies flying around and you're not focusing on what the purpose of the deck is. Either you stack your bench and use Empoleon, or you discard all energies you can and use Kingdra. You don't use both in the same deck. Plus, running two stage 2s? Why? You're just making it harder on yourself to consistently execute a strategy.

Plus, look at the number of energies you're running. To get a OHKO with Kingdra on an ex you're looking to shuffle back 9-10 energies. You only run 13. The odds of you having enough energies for a OHKO in the discard is low, and even if you have it, you're going to have them all back in your deck next turn so it's just dead draw then.

Also, where are the Catchers? Why do you only have 2 Junipers since that's the best way for you to discard energies?

My recommendation?

-3 Piplup (DEX)
-2 Prinplup (DEX)
-3 Empoleon (DEX)
-2 Seadra (PF)
-4 Thundurous (EPO)
-2 Cilan
+2 Rayquaza Dragon Vault
+1 Horsea (PF)
+1 Kingdra (PF)
+2 Professor Juniper
+1 Computer Search
+4 Catcher
+2 Max Potion
+3 Electric Energy

 

[Godzfirefly]

Okay, those are interesting suggestions. I definitely like having more room for Energies. I definitely like more Max Potions. I have no problem dropping Cilan in favor of Juniper. Just a few questions.

1) You suggest I remove all Seadra from the deck. Doesn't that leave me too heavily reliant on Rare Candy as my only method of evolution?

2) The major downside of Dragon Maelstrom is that you really can't effectively do it twice in a row. Without Empoleon or Thundurus, your suggestions leave me with only Rayquaza, Juniper, and Ultra Ball as effective discard. Is that truly enough?

3) Rayquaza's retreat cost is 3. If I add it, might I not need Switch or something similar?

4) Your suggestions leave me with only the following cards able to increase the size of my hand: 4 Juniper 2 Cheran and 2 Cilan. Everything else shrinks it or leaves me simply trading the card for another. Isn't that a bad thing overall?

 

[Swordfish1989]

I would actually cut the 2 cilan and 2 cheren and sub it with N instead. If you're concerned about draw, maybe cut Skyla to 2-3 and add in another draw supporter, like Bianca.

The problem with Empoleon is that it's just not a good partner at all. 2 stage 2's is almost impossible to run effectively in this format; any of the big EX decks will run all over you since they'll be knocking out (or even donking) your poor basics while you try to set up.

For this deck to be run effectively, you have to be very conscious of your discards and of your opponent's Pokemon. Remember, all you really need are 3 EX kills to win, and while two consecutive Maelstroms might not do the trick, Kingdra does have another attack which will make it easier for it to do future knockouts.

You also have Comp Search for discard and remember you can always retreat. The reason I didn't suggest switch is because I think you'd benefit greatly from retreating as an easy way to discard energies. You only really need 1 to attack anyway, so what else are you going to be doing with those energies?

As for Seadra, Blastoise/Keldeo doesn't run many (if not any) Wartortles and does fine. If you want to keep in 1 Seadra you can try, I just don't think it's needed.

 

[Godzfirefly]

Well, I've fiddled with the concept a bit, and I think I'll put together a few versions of the list (looking to test Empoleon v without & Thundurus v Rayquaza) to try out at League this weekend. Your suggestions have been very helpful, Swordfish. I'll post again next week with the results that I end up with.

I definitely have to say that I wish there was a better Horsea. It is extremely frustrating to look at the list of potential starting Pokémon and see the possibity of being forced to start with that...easily the worst start, even in the original list that included Piplup.

For now, I'm definitely making the following changes to the deck official:
-2 Thundurus
-1 Piplup
-1 Prinplup
-1 Empoleon
-1 Seadra
-2 Cilan
-2 Pokémon Communicator
+2 Professor Juniper
+2 Cheren
+2 Max Potion
+1 Computer Search
+3 Electric Energy

 

[Josh_the_great]

I like the Kingdra Line. How is this deck working
For you?

 

[Godzfirefly]

I like the way it works when it gets set up, but thus far that's only about half the time. I need to work on the energy-trainer blend to make it work better.

I think I'm going to chose Colress over Cheren, since my bench is often crowded enough on its own to make Colress better.

I feel like there has to be an option better than Thundurus OR Rayquaza, as neither are really helping me get set up all that well (though Thundurus is clearly superior to Rayquaza at thinning the deck of energy.) I wish there was another something that worked like Emolga...

I think I will drop my last Seadra...I never seem to use it, Since Kingdra is always my last step in setting up, I often have the Rare Candy in hand by the time I'm ready for evolution anyway. Prinplup, oddly enough, I think I'll leave. I seem to use it more often, in order to set up a second Empoleon. For whatever reason, people tend not to bother with Piplup as much as Hosea anyway, making it easier to set up my draw/cycling power...my opponent's mistake, really.

By the way, Kingdra without Empoleon (or something like it to get the energy back in the game) just doesn't work. With Empoleon, I can drop an easy 3-4 energy into my discard per turn. More, if I put an effort to it. Without Empoleon, it's an effort to get any there at all.

I'm feeling like Skyla and maybe Cilan are slowing me down, though. I need something else that does the job better. I'm finding straight card draw is generally superior than card searching in this format, anyway. Claydol (GE), I miss you...XD

I need to find room for some kind of pokemon recovery, too. I hate discarding my limited lines to Juniper or a necessary Ultra Ball.

Once my Kingdra gets going, though, I'm finding that opposition has some real trouble stopping its momentum. I just need to rebuild for more consistant starts.

 

[Godzfirefly]

Version 3, I dropped the electric side of the deck to try pure water. Going to look into finding a Water basic to replace Thundurus/Rayquaza, but this is my list for now.