Wally's Training-bad card?

Discussion in 'Cards: Strategy and Rulings Discussion' started by Venusaur, Jan 3, 2004.

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  1. Venusaur

    Venusaur New Member

    IMO Elm's method is superior to wally's training so I dont know why people use it. I mean the only situation where Wally's Training would be better would be if you had the basic active, a stage 1 in your hand, AND a wally's training in your hand to evolve to in the same turn. And most of the time theres no need to evolve that fast except maybe Kingdra.
     
  2. Spectreon

    Spectreon New Member

    Maybe for 2-2 Wallys could be better, but for the most part, I think Elm is 10 times better than Wally. The only thing Wallt does Elm cant do is break evo rule by evolving same turn (except 1st of course)
     
  3. bullados

    bullados <a href="http://pokegym.net/forums/showthread.php?

    I've tried Wally in one of my decks, and it flopped spectacularly, mostly because I never bring up an unprepared big hitter or a pre-evolution that I don't think could help me in a given situation (Wynaut being an exception, mostly due to its baby power).
     
  4. MonkeyMan

    MonkeyMan New Member

    Obviously Elm owns it, its not a discussion =\
     
  5. Spectreon

    Spectreon New Member

    Yeah a friend tried it out in his deck last night, and realized how bad it was. He was using it for SK Beedrill

    The biggest problem it had was that it took the card from the deck and placed it on the Pokemon, meaning once he did it, Beedrills come into play power was useless....
     
  6. Dek

    Dek New Member

    i would much prefer using Elm's Training Method in decks as long as its still E-ON. It is much more effective than the otehr evolution selections (besides Rare Candy, maybe)
     
  7. bullados

    bullados <a href="http://pokegym.net/forums/showthread.php?

    I use both RC and PETM in my deck to try and get out my big S2s for maximum damage with minimum effort. Try it sometime.
     
  8. nikePK

    nikePK New Member

    Its awful. Wally is totally kicking himself right now after seeing what his card does. Elm's Training is waaaay better as it can deck thin even if you don't have somethign that can evo. Also, the guy you want to evolve doesn't have to be active (the biggest part of why Wally stinks).
     
  9. You... all seem to be comparing apples and oranges in a way. Although they both retrieve an evolution card, their purposes are very much different. Wally's Training is for speed and the element of surprise. Elm's Training Method is used simply used for retrieving an evolution card.

    Wally's Training has isn't a wide-range-use card, like Elm's Training Method. If you're using it with that purpose in mind, then you're the one with the problem, not the card. It's meant to be used in the type of deck that, while unable to do mass amounts of damage (Blaziken/Gardevoir, for example, do this mass amount of damage), can be easily fired up quickly. (Something along the lines of Azumarril/Swampert) In this case, while swampert is meant to be brought out the traditional way, Azumarril can take serious advantage of the Wally's Training. At anytime in the game (Short of your first turn), you could concievably place a Marril, get it active, use Wally's Training, and load it up with energy via swampert. Now, you can argue that you could use Rare Candy or Elm's Training Method in this case as well, but not to the same effect. Those two cards combined CAN match the speed, yes, but not the same element of surprise. Throwing down a Marril first thing and getting all that done in the same turn is the point of the card. It was worded the way it was to help along decks like this, which already have a hard time in the current format. (Not to mention that they're somewhat rare.)

    So there's your point. The card is fine if USED PROPERLY in the purpose it was meant for. It's NOT meant to be a deck staple. It's a card that only helps out the specific deck types that rely on speed more dramatically than the power they have when actually up and running.
     
  10. bullados

    bullados <a href="http://pokegym.net/forums/showthread.php?

    think about it this way, MHZ. In order to use Wally the way that you are proposing, you need to get the Pokemon that you need (in your example, Marill) (1 card). Then, you need to get the other guy out of the Active position. Most of the time, you won't want to discard energy in order to do this, so you'd need either Switch or Balloon Berry (2). Then, you'd need Wally to get the Evo that you need (3). And, even after all of that, you still don't have a S2 out, only a S1.

    In the RC and PETM example that I proposed above, you still need 3 cards, a Basic, an RC, and a PETM. However, unlike Wally, you don't need to have the guy active in order to use the combo. Also, once you're done with all of the cards, you're likely to have a S2 on your hands, or a S1 with the same amount of effort. Wally, the way that it is currently worded, is basically the same for speed as RC/PETM because it will need a Switch in order to do its dirty work. Once the E-sets rotate out, however, Wally will become extremely powerful, now just is not his time.
     
  11. You're missing the point though, you just tried to compare it to the use that I said it wasn't meant for. Wally doesn't have many uses in this format, this is true, but it is NOT a bad card for the purpose it's used for. The thing that it is capable of achieving easier than Elm's Training Method/Rare candy is the element of surprise. That is, something that is going to attack the TURN you play it. If we place Elm's Training Method and rare candy into the exact same situation, it's simply an extra card required.

    Think back to the Haymakers where you could have your settup out, then out of the blue, slap down a Hitmonchan and 3 pluspowers. It's the same idea, the opponent is NOT given time to react, and because the opponent never sees any reason to build up a defense against it, they never do.

    Again, I'm pointing out that it has has limited use due to the deck type it's meant for. It's superior to the Elm's Training Method/Rare Candy combo ONLY in the use it's meant for. This is why, though, you cannot in good reason say that it's a bad card, when it HAS a purpose that it's clearly better for.
     
  12. Otaku

    Otaku Active Member

    Well, for one thing, it isn't that hard to retreat for most decks. Most of the time I have a Wynaut or Dunsparce or the like active, so its just one energy. Could it be vital? Yeah. Could it be trivial? Yeah.

    Now the ral question is why use either? If you run a deck that relies on Stage 1s with inexpensive attacks, it makes sense. However, I just don't like PETM. I lose my supporter for a single stinking evolution, which I probably could get via any number of search/draw Trainers. One of the few decent non-supportering searchers works for Evolutions and basics: Master Ball.

    I think I tried PETM, but if not, it still pales from what I've actually seen to other Evolution nabbing cards.
     
  13. nikePK

    nikePK New Member

    Just gets you ONE single evolution eh? Yeah, that's the evolution that wins you the game.

    Sure, Wally has that Suprise, but in the example you give, zero, its horribly flawed. Playing Swampert requires that you get him out. You gonna get him out with Wally? I think not, then you'd have to retreat him.

    The elemnt of surprise may work in some decks like blaziken, but Wally's training is still a HORRID card even in the case of the 'element of surprise' cuz Candy is so much better. You don't need to combo candy with PETM, though its nice.

    Anyway, quite simply, the card is bad. Its not good for evo grabbing or doing the whole 'element of surpise' thing.

    Just my opinion of course.
     
  14. Otaku

    Otaku Active Member

    Then either I have screwed up to give you the win or you are an otherwise skilled player who has set up and needs just that card, which which case, I can't fathom why your deck is built so that general draw/search power can't get it. I like it when opponents use PETM-usually, it slows them down, so I get first crack at them, or if they make the mistake of playing PETM before they can evolve (which sometimes they must since they gotta waste a supporter slot on it), I like to hsoe them with a Desert Shaman. but ehy, thats me: if it works for you: fine. Personally, I think both are under-powered for Supporters (though to be fair, PETM would be a bit too much for just a normal Trainer).
     
  15. bullados

    bullados <a href="http://pokegym.net/forums/showthread.php?

    Otaku:
    Master Ball is also flawed, it only searches the top 7 cards in your deck, and I am terrible at topdecking anything. PETM is a definite evolution card for me, and will usually cost my opponent the game if he/she just allows it to go through. Wanna test it out? Meet me on AIM and we'll battle Apprentice to prove to you that PETM is faster than Master Ball.

    MHZ:
    D00d, look at the situation that I played out for you. With Wally, you need a MINIMUM of 3 cards (Wally, Basic Pokemon, Switch/Balloon) and up to 7 in orderb to work. With PETM and RC, you will DEFINATELY need ONLY 3 cards to work (PETM, RC, Basic), and then maybe a Switch to bring the guy up. PETM/RC IS faster than Wally, even for surprise attacks. Meet me on AIM to batle App and we'll test.
     
  16. Heck no. That's what Rare Candy/Elm's Training Method is for. ;)

    ....Er, no, that's the exact opposite of the point I've been trying to make. The 'element of surprise' is NOT needed most of ALL in decks like that, specifically because they can COMPETE with other decks in terms of the raw damage they're capable of. Blaziken usually combos with Exeggutor or Rayquaza, and because of these hundreds upon hundreds of damage you can inflict with these cards, you don't need to be quite as fast or surprising as you would with Azumarril.

    In all the examples you've all given, you're evolving a benched to a stage 2 for their power. Once again, as said, Wally's Training is NOT meant for this purpose, that's WHY we have Rare Candy and Elm's Training Method. Wally's Training is meant for an entirely DIFFERENT purpose. You're trying to point out how an apple isn't suited for an orange's purpose, just because they're both fruit.

    The point of the Azumarril/Swampert deck example was to show that it's best for going from NOTHING to a stage one capable of around 90 damage on ONE TURN. If you wanted, you could have a Rare Candy/Azumarril or Rare Candy/Elm's Training Method in your hand, but your chances of that ONE cards are better than those 2.

    And I'm not saying run it over Rare Candy either. In a deck like that, BOTH have their purpose. Wally's Training Method HAS a purpose. It just DOES NOT work well in the bulk of decks in this format.

    [EDIT - Masterball... *shudders*]
     
    Last edited: Jan 4, 2004
  17. BJJ763

    BJJ763 Trading Mod Supervisor Staff Member Trader Feedback Mod

    I know of someone that runs Wally's Training just for the element of surprise - either his active was just KOed (not all that often) or (more likely) he sees that the Active can be KOed by his Mysterious Fossil & the Boost Energy he has in his hand. Pulls it off plenty of times.
     
  18. Mr. Grass

    Mr. Grass New Member

    I have to agree that Professor Elm's Training Method is better than Wally's Training because it is more versatile. But then the title of this topic asks if Wally's Training is a bad card. So let me try it this way: If Professor Elm's Training Method was suddenly banned (and you had some in your deck) what would you replace it with?
    Some possibilites include Pokeball, Master Ball, Fast Ball, Friend Ball, and Wally's Training. Personally I'd take Wally's Training, though depending on the deck Fast Ball might work too.
     
  19. Spectreon

    Spectreon New Member

    If fast ball woulda worked, people woulda just used it anyways, not PETM... and if PETM gets banned, expect to loose Fast Ball and Master Ball..... now you are down to Poke Ball and Wally.... and I defenitely would take Wally.

    Wally is a I just played it this turn, and I wanta evolve it this turn. There are some decks that can use/abuse this. It does exactly what it takes 2 cards to do, find evo, and evolve it that turn, breaking evo rule. It really is a usefull card

    Turn one, play Horsea
    Turn two, play Seadra, then activate, and play Wally, find Kingdra EX, attach an energy and go for it


    that is the best modified example, but check this idea for ulimited

    Turn 1 Zubat, Attach G, Prolly Poison Spray
    Turn 2, evolve to Dark Golbat and do 10, Wally, find D Crobat and do 20, then add Energy, and go

    Modified

    Middle of the game...
    Play a magnemite/Skitty, Wally for Evo, and Energy Trans for big damage...
     
  20. Adv1sor

    Adv1sor New Member

    I don't think that you would get the 20 from Dark Crobat if you use Wally.

    Still, your example is right. This is Wally's value. If you just want to be able to search for an evolvement, then use Elm.
     

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