Whats a player to do???

Discussion in 'Professor Forum' started by BANGINBOX, Apr 22, 2008.

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  1. BANGINBOX

    BANGINBOX New Member

    What can a player do if they know the ruling or rule being enforced is incorrect?

    I am not talking about AFTER the event. I am wondering about the ACTUAL time it is happening?

    Jimmy
     
    Last edited: Apr 22, 2008
  2. NoPoke

    NoPoke New Member

    Much better to bring this up on the official fourms . Not that you shouldn't bring it up here but it seems likely that you will get much more revealing answers over there.

    bad judging experienced as a player at UK Nationals many years ago is what drove me to being a judge.
     
  3. BANGINBOX

    BANGINBOX New Member

    You are probably right,,,,

    Could you link me in a PM I will rephrase to get more logical responses.
    Jimmy
     
    Last edited: Apr 22, 2008
  4. meganium45

    meganium45 Active Member

    Jimmy, it was the hideous judging in Indiana and Chicago over the WOTC regime that caused me to become a judge and a TO.

    Juniors treated poorly, incompetent judges, judges that flat out cheat...many problems...

    Bad judges and practices are heard about, reported and replaced.

    PUI has a pattern of doing this.

    The best thing to do, is to report it.

    There is still junk I hear going on, (people barking at Juniors, or being rude to them) that I would not tolerate of any of my judges or any TOs at all....

    Key is, PUI has to hear about it.

    This is not to force every piece of minutia into the open. Only to address the true and real problems.

    Vince
     
  5. Scipio

    Scipio New Member

    Problem at hand is that if you do that, the damage may be done already. If I were to lose a final due to bad judging, I'd be....lightly ticked off, so to speak.
     
  6. SteveP

    SteveP Active Member

    When evidence fails to convince, try politicking. I once convinced a TO that he needed to do TOP 4 at his CC, but not directly. I convinced his good friend who then convinced the TO. All my arguments about following the CC guidelines were ignored by the TO, yet the gentle persuation of a kind friend worked miracles.
     
  7. Spotter

    Spotter New Member

    From the 2007-2008 Pokémon Organized Play Tournament Rules (Rules effective: 9/01/2007)

    Section 5.4.1. Appeals to the Head Judge
    A player may appeal any ruling made by a judge to the Head Judge of the
    event. Should a player appeal a ruling, the Head Judge must hear from all
    parties involved, including both players and the judge that issued the
    original ruling, before making a final ruling. The Head Judge is the final
    authority on all card rulings and tournament rules interpretations for that
    event.

    Simply put - the Head Judge is the Last Word when it comes to rulings. Doesn't matter if they're wrong or right. Doesn't matter if YOU KNOW they are wrong or right.

    At the ACTUAL TIME of the event, there is NOTHING that can be done past appealing to the Head Judge. And it's that way for a reason, to preserve the authority of the Head Judge for all decisions rendered during that event. Once you institute a way to begin second-guessing the Head Judge on one issue, you open the door for EVERY LITTLE THING to be rules-lawyered to death and completely stop down Organized Play.

    S.
     
  8. PokePop

    PokePop Administrator

    First step is politely outlining your position and why you believe it to be correct (referencing supporting documents, for example) with the initial judge.

    If that fails, you have the right to be heard by the head judge.
    This is 100% always a player's right. No judge can refuse to bring in the head judge.

    If the head judge is making the same, incorrect ruling, you can make your case as before, again, politely.

    If the head judge maintains their ruling, you're pretty much done, at least at that event.
    The head judge gets the final say, even if they are wrong.

    However, as Vince pointed out, do report it. If the HJ is making a habit of taking positions contrary to the rules or established rulings, then action may be taken.

    If won't affect the finished event, unfortunately.
     
  9. We had great Judging at the Woodlands (Houston-Southern Plains) for regionals . Only thing was with so many jrs. that showed up that had never played before. Some parents thought they were going to teach them how to play. Wrong place to learn. But the games went on. Some times new kids got on playing new kids. A few players had energy on the bench pokemon and would atack from the bench. Some kids would set up before the opponent got to sit down. Would not give the kids a chance to cut. My son knew the rules but let it slide anyway thinking it would be ok. He should have known better not to do this. I have been trying to teach him to raise his hand and call a Judge and even appeal if he would like to. I will never know why he does not do this. Hope your question gets a good answer.
     
  10. TheDarkTwins

    TheDarkTwins Active Member

    I do the following if I have a problem with a ruling. I first appeal to the HJ telling them I dont feel that the ruling made by the lower judge was correct. If they support thier Judges ruling, I ask can you please look it up in the Compenduim, which is usually where I get the answer I was looking for. If that doesnt work as the ruling isnt in there or they cant find it in there, I ask if they can discuss it among themselves. After that it becomes too much and rules lawyering but that is what I do to try to get a correct ruling.

    Drew
     
  11. meganium45

    meganium45 Active Member

    In STL (not as big mind you) we sent up a new player "corral" with 2-3 people teaching new players the whole time before the event.

    We gave out 50 new player packages, including decks, sleeves and a tin, so I know we had a ton of newbies.

    I agree, kind of frustrating at times for the "veteran" players...but hey, they got a hat too!!!

    Why can't David raise his hand...because his dad is confused???

    That could be it!

    Vince
     
  12. BANGINBOX

    BANGINBOX New Member

    This is the reason I am posting this. Turns out thet the Head judge is implementing rules that are not in the Floor rules. Why should I as a plyer be forced to follow silly rules that are not addressed by PUI?

    Could I ask the head judge to show me IN WRITING (such as floor rules or penalty guidlines) prior to making his/her final decision?

    It seems as if there are a lot of HEAD judges, that will support the lower judges call, NO MATTER WHAT. There needs to be more room for correcting errors. A head Judge cant assume that the other judge made the correct ruling. It becomes a serious issue of power. Who has the biggest puffed out chest wins. Usually its the head judge as you stated.

    Please dont misunderstand me.... There are MANY MANY more EXCELLENT judges than the few I am questioning. However, I , as a player, have the right to get my point across, and asking them to show me proof should not be an issue.

    I will give you an example, using myself as as the player....

    It is my opponents turn... He attacks my Ho-oh with gallade. He clearly states that he will be turning over 2 prizes for the KO. I ask him.... Are you sure 2 prizes? He again states Yes, then proceeds to take the prize. Now as you all know Ho-Oh is resistant to fighting and 2 prizes would not be enough to KO my active. He was 10 short. So I call the Judge, the Judge ruled that I was being a rules monger and gave me a prize penalty for unsportsmanship conduct. Not only that but the judge allowed him to turn another prize for the KO. The judge did not even give me an oppritunity to speak. Even though I called the Judge My opponent spilled his case prior to me thus making me look like I was the one to blame.

    The way I see it, My opponent made a mistake. He should not get the oppritunity to reverse that sort of play. He clearly stated that he was going to turn over 2 prizes. You should not be rewarded for MISPLAYS! It should not have been a reversable action as it involved his attack phase. Turn over, NO KO! Period...

    Instead, the head judge gives me a Warning and a prize penalty and threatens to THROW ME OUT OF HIS PLACE if i continue to question him. Clearly an abuse of power.

    This actually happened, not to me, but it did happen. I told this player to leave some serious feedback about this tournament. I hope he took my advise and wrote the letter to PUI regarding how poorly the tournament was run. Keep in mind this is a NEW player to the game and this was his FIRST official sponsored event. What do you think this person thinks of our game now?

    Jimmy
     
  13. PokePop

    PokePop Administrator

    All I can say is that I think every judge should be open to considering the possibility that they are wrong on a ruling.
    It's not uncommon for me to double check on a ruling. No one should consider themselves infallible.
     
  14. Vegetasou

    Vegetasou New Member

    Same exact thing happened to me at Regionals. The Head Judge misinterpreted the story that the lower Judges fed him rather than finding out for certain what really happened. My opponent was able to reverse his misplay and got the KO. I received a caution for bringing it up. :nonono:
     
  15. PokemonSteve

    PokemonSteve New Member

    And that has lead you to be one of the best judges in the world.



    When i "over" judge a ruling, i like to know the situation first. Find out what either player has to say, then find out what the judge has said. After this i will then make the correct ruling.
    But a part of being a judge (well anything really) is to learn from your mistakes. If i'm questioned of my rulings i alway like to make sure of my answer either after or during (where possible) the tournament.

     
    Last edited: Apr 23, 2008
  16. Cyrus

    Cyrus Iron Chef - Master Emeritus

    Everybody so far has done a great job summing things up. As a player, having a good working knowledge of the floor rules, penalty guidelines, Team Compendium Lv.X, etc is important (it won me an invite in 2005!).

    While judges-especially the BEST judges- try their hardest to get things right, they're human. So...the more YOU know, the less likely that you'll suffer.
     
  17. bullados

    bullados <a href="http://pokegym.net/forums/showthread.php?

    Same reason here. I saw very inexperienced judging from people who had been judging for quite some time. I became a Judge to try and stop that. I saw TOs who had no idea how to TO an event. I became a TO in order to show people how events are supposed to be run. Am I perfect? No. I don't claim to be. I don't think anybody here can claim to run perfect events every time. But I try, and lots of people try.

    For more info, read below.
    Agreed, 100%. Always get a Head Judge ruling whenever you don't agree with the table Judge. I would also suggest writing down the HJ's ruling if there is a problem that you know about. Double check that the ruling is, in fact, wrong by checking the tournament procedures and the Compendium. Then, once you're absolutely sure that you're right, send off the Report Event form in your My Pokemon account. There are plenty of opportunities to help curb bad Judges and bad TOs. Judges are there to make sure that the event is fair and run effectively. Good, experienced players can make sure that the Judges and TOs are doing their jobs correctly.
     
  18. PokeDaddy

    PokeDaddy New Member

    Jimmy, Pop, et al.

    If you think this is bad in, let's say the masters' division, just put yourself in the shoes of a Junior. They are the ones that have the greatest issue.

    Some kids know the rules better than most professors. Their problem is that when a wrong ruling is given, they have to know and be able to appeal to the HJ. In some cases, some judges say "no, I'm right" and that shut's the kid up.

    I love to play but I, like Ian, would rather help grow and advance the judging so that it is more consistent and evenly parsed. That's why I judge. And, as Pop said, you have to be willing to ask your fellow judges questions and not feel mortified if you have to reverse your initial decision.

    The root cause of all of this..... egos.
     
    Last edited: Apr 23, 2008
  19. Naki Feralkin

    Naki Feralkin New Member

    I don't see how that should result in a prize penalty though. The ruling by PUI almost everywhere states that prizes should be announced. Your opponent made a mistake in not catching the resistance, and you noted the resistance. He made his move, it begins your turn. It is a misplay. People make it, life should go on.

    If he didn't take the prize, then no foul. I had to make a ruling like this at a BR a while back when I was judging. The judges all wanted my opinion on the matter too. It went something like this.

    Kingdra EX D attacks Latias D with Protective Swirl. Person controlling the Kingdra EX forgets about resistance and proceeds to take a prize. He didn't see it, yet he still was ready to put it into his hand. His opponent catches the resistance and he didn't know whether the violator saw it or not.

    Latias' controller got a prize off of it due to misplay and no proof of whether Kingdra's controller saw his prize or not. I think he also had to put it back down and his prizes got shuffled.

    In your case, I wouldn't have really done much if the Gallade's controller didn't pick it up as it was an error that your opponent might not have caught. I might not do anything because there would be no foul. If he did, I'd probably rule it the same as above. I see no problem in calling a judge for a misplay on your opponents part. Thats what we're here for, isn't it?
     
  20. Lawman

    Lawman Active Member

    Allowing each player a chance to speak (in turn) is important. I think when the HJ is requested/called over, it is best to let the set up be explained, then the HJ can talk to each player. The issue I see at times in the MAs is one player starts talking over the other. I kindly tell the interrupting player that they will get their turn to talk in a moment.

    No one likes to make an error. It happens sometimes. As a player, if you believe a judge has made an error, call for the HJ. Most judges and HJs I have worked with will discuss and huddle up w/ other judges to try and get the correct call.

    If you are a player at another table and think that an incorrect ruling is/was made.....please bring it to the HJ's attention. The sooner the better. If you see a card being played incorrectly, get the attention of a judge.

    As for the JRs, that is a tough issue to get by. They are taught to respect their elders and positions of authority. All the judges are in positions of authority at the event. Yet, here, 8, 9 and 10 yr olds are boing told they CAN question an adult's ruling. Again, a good judge welcomes the chance to huddle up w/ others to make sure they get it right. It should not be about egos.

    Keith

    Back to back posts merged. The following information has been added:

    As for the Gallade issue, I made it a point at our Regionals where I was HJ in MAs, that you must announce the number of prizes you will be flipping and the amount. If you fail to do so and you go to flip any prize, you must flip all the remaining and do the max amount possible. You could annouce for the 60 only and no prizes to flip and be OK. Kept the players from being sloppy in their play. We didnt seem to have any/many problems. This was also made a part of the opening remarks, so everyone was forewarned.

    Keith
     
    Last edited: Apr 22, 2008

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