Whats a player to do???

Discussion in 'Professor Forum' started by BANGINBOX, Apr 22, 2008.

  1. Team Cook

    Team Cook New Member

    Other PTOs have answered your question so I have just one thing to say.

    Players REALLY NEED to use the feedback about tournaments. You have every right to give feedback to PUI about tournaments you play in. Don't be afraid to voice your concerns. DO IT if you feel you were wronged. If you don't do it, then PUI will probably never hear about the problem or problems and the TO, judge, or head judge will just make the same mistake the next tournament.

    On the other hand, if the tournament was great and you were happy, use the feedback as well. Let PUI know how great it was and how happy you are. It works both ways.

    As far as our Regionals, we had two dads teaching new kids prior to Round 1. A lot of kids refused the help because they already "knew" how to play, lol. We've heard that before, lol.

    We all make mistakes, but it's usually not intentional. We always try to get it right. In Texas, we don't have "World" judges but we have good judges that will listen to what the players have to say.

    I make sure we cater to the players. If it wasn't for players, I wouldn't be here. I OWE you the respect.
     
  2. Cyrus

    Cyrus Iron Chef - Master Emeritus

    WELL said! Us old guys and girls at least have easy access to resources...Oftentimes, Juniors and their parents don't-or can't-obtain resources to combat incorrect judging.
     
  3. Spotter

    Spotter New Member

    Because the tournament rules as put forth by PUI say that you have to, and for two good reasons. First, no set of rules can be completely exhaustive, and by leaving final authority with the Head Judge, it allows them the latitude to address issues that are not clearly covered in the published rules. Second, leaving final authority with the Head Judge and not with an entity not directly involved with the tournament (such as perhaps an OP Helpline, or post de facto review committee, for example), it establishes the legitimacy of ALL rulings made by that judge during that event. Any mechanism for results-altering reviews of rulings after the fact start us down a slippery slope that I'm fairly certain we don't want to start down.

    I certainly don't see why not. I think it would be well within your rights as a player to ask for this, and were I operating in a Head Judge role, I wouldn't be offended if a player were to ask this of me. However, again, I interpret the rules as to say the final judgement is rendered by the Head Judge, whether he can present the ruling in writing or not.

    This is where the post-event feedback comes in handy. If more players were to provide feedback for events, I'm sure we would be better able to weed out those folks who don't need to be running these events.

    Please encourage your friend again to leave feedback. Encourage everyone you know to leave feedback, positive or negative, about the events they attend. Every bit will help to improve the OP atmosphere.

    S.
     
  4. bulbasnore

    bulbasnore Administrator Staff Member Trader Feedback Mod

    Neither news nor gossip. Moving.

    A couple things:
    1. Players MUST announce the number of prizes with Psychic Cut
    2. If you are appealed to as a HJ, you MUST personally attend to the appellant. You can NOT receive the appellants arguments through the initial judge. You have to see him/her personally and listen.

    Now, the judge can brief the HJ on the situation before the HJ comes over. Also, repeated abuse of the appeal for frivolous reasons, e.g. rules lawyering, can result in a penalty. However, the HJ job is to listen to the person appealing the ruling and make sure it gets ruled right. If someone makes a super duper jerk of themselves during an appeal, there can be a separate penalty for that, but you have to listen to the player.

    Key player actions:
    Speak up, but remain calm.
    Refer to rulings sources when you speak. Rule book & Compendium. Or, if you've read them: Penalty Guidelines, and Tournament Operations Procedures.
    Check YOUR watch at the start of this ruling and announce the time.

    Player phrase book:

    - Argh, that judge is not bringing the HJ, I'm hosed! :: I understand Organized Play expects the Head Judge to come and listen to me personally. Would you please ask him to come listen to me?
    - FRak, the HJ is even more ignorant than the field judge! :: Would you look under <Psychic Cut> in the Compendium? I believe the ruling there applies directly in this situation.
    - This is taking for-freaking-ever, my opponent is going to stall me out! :: Could you tell me what time it is? I'd like to make a note of it in case we need an extension.

    Professor POP Quiz!
    Explain in 25 words or less how a player can find the "Report Event" button!
     
    Last edited: Apr 22, 2008
  5. Lawman

    Lawman Active Member

    Yes, please leave feedback to PUI on events you attend, whether good or bad. It helps the game grow!

    Keith
     
  6. SteveP

    SteveP Active Member

    When a player makes a mistake, he loses or gets penalized. When a head judge makes a mistake, the player loses or gets penalized. That's the system. Seems unfair, but justice is sometimes unfair or unswift (in the case of appeals to POP).

    I knew of a few DQs handed out by PTOs/HJs for cussing. The Penalty Guidelines state that foul language is an Unsportmanlike Conduct - Minor penalty and the recommended action is a Caution or Warning, depending on the Tier level.

    After an appeal to POP by the father of one of the accused kids, the PTOs softened their stanch on swearing in the tournament area.

    I think PTOs/HJs have to put things in context. In the DQ-for-cussing example, maybe it was the F-bomb amongst a group of Juniors. So, I'm usually always on the side of the PTO/HJ. In the case of the Ho-Oh vs. Gallade example, I'm still on the side of the PTO/HJ because they were there, put things in context, and heard the WHOLE story.

    I don't dismiss the fact that judges sometimes make wrong rulings. Heck, I only got 88% on my last Professor Exam, so I'm not perfect.
     
    Last edited: Apr 23, 2008
  7. PokeDaddy

    PokeDaddy New Member

    What is needed is a graduated (by Level) judging program organized and approved by the Pokemon OP.

    In the absense of this, there will always be greater variability in the judging.

    Having a comprehensive program that allows for advancement will go a long way on achieving parity at all events.

    Steve
     
  8. Team Cook

    Team Cook New Member

    I can see it now, some kid will take this as far as possible and quote the above to a judge.

    Keep in mind, foul language can be looked at as "slurs or insults" which is under 7.6.3 and is considered SEVERE which means a DQ.

    Ut oh, no cautions or warnings now, lol.
     
  9. meganium45

    meganium45 Active Member

    Steve, the issue then is who judges the judges?

    Are you going to be required to go to a BDS, Bulbasnore, or 'mom event to get your judging evaluated (They have been the HJs for Nats and Worlds for quite a few rotations)

    This is not the type of thing you can trust just to a PTO, in that not all PTOs are created equal.

    Could nats be the place? Not real fair for the West Coast or South judges there.

    The problem is, the program is needed.

    What is the solution? Much more difficult.

    Vince
     
  10. SteveP

    SteveP Active Member

    At our Regionals, I ran into a ruling not found in the compendium (Disable against a Murkrow with a powered Honchkrow on the bench). I knew what the ruling should be, but I couldn't point to a specific ruling. So, I consulted another judge. As good as he was, he had to call PokePop to confirm the correct ruling.

    Higher authorities are nice.

    Back to back posts merged. The following information has been added:

    Sorry, I meant to say that "swearing" is considered Unsportmanlike Conduct - Minor.

    Personally, I think swearing is disgusting. Nevertheless, I think PTOs/HJs should consider the Penalty Guidelines before elevating the penalty. If there's justification, I have no problem.

    In the situation where the Father appealed to POP, it was NOT severe. Knowing the kid and dad myself, it seemed unusual that he swore (the player denied it). I've judged and been with the kid for 9 years. I've never heard him swear. But evidently, the side judge claimed to hear it. It was just that the PTO had established a zero-tolerance policy that was enforced to the fullest extent.

    Anyway, my point is, PTOs/HJs are different. Some will miss things, some will be harsher, some will call higher powers.
     
    Last edited: Apr 23, 2008
  11. PokePop

    PokePop Administrator

    My number is available on the PTO forum.
    Calls welcome.
     
  12. PokeDaddy

    PokeDaddy New Member

    now why would anyone want to call Pop?????:eek:

    That is the great thing about leaving your ego at the door. I have called Mike M. on several occasions - most of them were prank calls tho. jk

    Mike, your number is on the PTO forums however not available to regular old judges.

    I will gladly offer judges my cell phone number. No prank calls allowed tho......

    PM me if you want.

    Steve
     
  13. PokePop

    PokePop Administrator

    I'll also give it to any judge that asks.
    I just don't want to post it on an open forum.
     
  14. BJJ763

    BJJ763 Trading Mod Supervisor Staff Member Trader Feedback Mod

    I'm a big fan of leaving event feedback. I encourage people to log into their MyPokemon Accounts and leave feedback on the events they attend.

    Oh, and 'Pop, your 1-800-arul-e4yu is always busy......
     
  15. Spotter

    Spotter New Member

    While I think it's great that members of Team Compendium and other experienced judges are willing to offer up their expertise, I have a concern about what kind of precedent that sets. By suggesting to the OP community that there is indeed a 'next level' ruling body that they could feasibly appeal to during the course of an event dangerously undermines the authority of the Head Judge at that event. And I realize that this assistance isn't being promoted as a 'ruling body', but we all know that certain players (and even other players in certain situations) will, intentionally or not, interpret it as such. You could end up with every Tom, Dick and Harry causing a stink over every little issue they don't like the ruling about, demanding that the 'OP Helpline' be called for a final rendering. And yes, this problem could be dealt with on a case-by-case basis, issuing appropriate level penalties for someone who behaves in such a disruptive manner over non-issues, but why even open that particular Pandora's box? Isn't running a successful event challenging enough as it is?

    I believe absolute authority at an event has to remain with the Head Judge. The Compendium and official tournament rules & regulations are wonderful resources available to the Head Judge (and woe to those who choose not to make use of those resources), but the final call has to remain with the man on the ground.

    S.
     
  16. Lawman

    Lawman Active Member

    Spotter: You are correct, the HJ has to be the final authority. I think what some fail to see is that there have been times when the HJ wasnt sure themselves of a particular ruling. It is then the HJ/PTO who has made the decision to call one of the other PTOs/HJs/TC members for "assistance". To the best of my knowledge, NO HJ has ever allowed a PLAYER to state, "call 'Pop, you all have his number, get the ruling from HIM". At an event, the buck stops with the HJ.

    I was fortunate enough to have a member of TC at the Reg's I was HJ for in the MAs division. (He was working in the SRs) He actually came to me to verify a ruling and I did the same on another ruling. It really is just an fine example of good judges huddling up to get the call right. That is what we all strive for, at least the judges I have worked with. No one wants to make a mistake, but we are human. Every player will tell you that during the course of a major tourney with several rds of swiss and then a top cut, that they will make "misplays". If the elite players make "misplays" after a loooong day of play, do you not think that a Judge could slip up once or twice also? Trust me, if there is a doubt about a ruling, I am going to look something up and/or huddle up with other judge(s) to bounce it around.

    Keith
     
  17. TrainerJL

    TrainerJL New Member

    I think having judges put their heads together to consult on a strange ruling is always a good idea. Anyone can have a brain cramp and miss something obvious, but generally if 2 or 3 get together someone will see it. This is especially true if a brand-new situation arises - each judge brings a different perspective on other, similar rulings that can be very helpful. The HJ doesn't have to be an island, even though this final decision is his/hers.
     
  18. bulbasnore

    bulbasnore Administrator Staff Member Trader Feedback Mod

    And I still have a challenge to all the Profs:
    describe in 25 words or less how a player finds the feedback button
     
  19. PokeDaddy

    PokeDaddy New Member

    20 Words

    Log In to MyPokemon Account

    http://www.go-pokemon.com/

    Click My Stats

    Scroll down

    Find the event

    Click feeback

    Fill it out

    Submit
     
  20. Lawman

    Lawman Active Member

    (Add to above) Do this for ALL events!

    DING DING DING..we have a winner! Really folks, PUI loves to get feedback on the events. Doesnt matter if it is good, fantastic, bad or ugly...just let them know people are attending and where, why, etc.

    Keith
     

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