What's the rule on deck checks?

Discussion in 'Battle Roads' started by I am Entei, Oct 8, 2007.

  1. I am Entei

    I am Entei New Member

    For the 5th straight Battle Road, we saw juniors play with old cards and computer printoffs in sleeves. None of these was a mailicious attempt by the kids but a lack of knowledge and help in getting their deck together. In Rockford, one little boy was leading the tournament until the final 4 and they deck checked and he had the wrong card or a bad card and was in tears and miserable. We saw a few weeks ago were another kid didn't know what was legal and just had a mess of cards and no one would help him and the same in tears and miserable. I know deck checks are time consuming and all but would it hurt to do it for the juniors (and others you can tell are new) and help them learn and understand and avoid the bad experiences. Just a thought.
     
  2. Lawman

    Lawman Active Member

    I'm not sure how others are handling their BRs, but I have used this method. I do a decklist check, making sure the decklist has 60 cards, are all legal and the sleeves are legal. I also count the deck itself while checking the backs of th sleeves. Not as lengthy as the full deck check since I am not going thru each deck card for card.

    This is similar to the optional deck check we used at Nats this past July.

    As for help with the JRs, this is done, but it takes time. Basically, it helps if a Masters player would take the time (or an older SR) and assist the JR player in going thru the cards they have to see if they have a legal deck or enough cards to even build one. We all want the new players to play, but sometimes the kids with a jumble of old cards just cannot get enough together to make a legal modified deck. That is where the theme decks come in handy. The child can still play and have newer cards also! Of course, sometimes an organizer has a few decks built on the side that they can loan out to players too, if they want to.

    Keith
     
  3. chriscobi634

    chriscobi634 New Member

    we had this same problem at New Berlin, WI ABR just yesterday. I caught one Senior player playing an Arcanine Ex (LM) and a few other cards. This was only in round 2 of 4, so we just replaced them with the basic NRG. But then in the Juniors in the top 2, one of the young guys had a Meganium Ex and Feraligatr Ex from the trainer kit released last year. I could see where the confussion would lie there with the young ones. On the deck there is a Diamond/Pearl trainer kit. He had the Unseen Forces versions of the cards, so the symbols could be seen on the cards themselves, but he did asked if they had been released in a trainer kit,. A nice reminder of the how the decklist have what is legal or not would help in case PTO don't want to deck checks or if there isn't time for them, but we always remind people that this tournaments are Modified; I guess now we have to go a step further and explain what that is. Although, several times our PTO announced that players should make sure their decks were legal for the modified tournament. Or like Lawman suggested, just have older/experienced help check at least the Juniors.
     
  4. Heatherdu

    Heatherdu New Member

    Lawman has it right. I'm just a player and a Mom but I always try to help out when a new player shows up. I even carry an extra theme deck or two in my backpack that I can loan out if need be.

    All the BRs that we have attended have required pre-game deck checks. I appreciate it as it helps prevent possible bad scenarios later in the tournament.

    We attended a BR yesterday where a majority of the Junior and Senior players were new and had 'illegal' decks. It was great seeing all the people that helped look through the decks and either lent or even gave cards to these players. This event was held at a library so the option to purchase a theme deck did not exist. We had a similar scenario at this library at last season's Cities so the PTO came prepared with a number of theme decks that he just gave out if an experienced player told him that the new player just had too many unplayable cards. I think everyone had a wonderful time. The parents of these young players were impressed with the kindness and generosity of the other players and organizer. The kids were not left in tears because they got to play and in many cases had new cards to boot. And to speed things along we were allowed to just write 'Terra Firma' theme deck on the decklist to save a lot of time and aggravation.
     
  5. Lawman

    Lawman Active Member

    ^Exactly....if they use a theme deck, just write the name of the theme deck on the sheet and turn it in!

    I know one PTO that actually comes with a few theme decks and the decklist for said theme decks already filled out. Just fill in the blank for name, DOB and POP ID and voila.....instant player (don't even need to add water :lol: ) (Jeff R. / Feraligatr does this w/ the TD)

    Keith
     
  6. meganium45

    meganium45 Active Member

    We require players to turn in decklists.

    What do we do that for, entertainment?

    At my events, and at most events from PTOs I know around the country, turning in your decklist is only the first step to getting registered.

    Once a decklist is turned in, it needs to be checked. The judging staff checks the LIST (changed), making sure the deck and cards are legal, and the list is correctly filled out, calling the players up to make corrections, and once the deck list is deemed legal, then AND ONLY THEN should a player's name and POP ID be entered into the computer system.

    Do things get missed even with a deckcheck like this from time to time? Sure, noone is perfect.

    Oh, and I carry around the theme decks too, just like Gatr, (must be a neo stage 2 thing), and I fully support any player who is playing with a theme deck only simply writing the name and set of the theme deck on the registration sheet. I just make it clear to them they cannot change cards in or out of the theme decks they list in this manner.

    My long-winded (as always) opinion and commentary.

    Vince
     
    Last edited: Oct 10, 2007
  7. Regis_Neo

    Regis_Neo Moderator

    At our BRs and such, the judges do pretty much what meganium45 said. They also do random deck checks throughout the day and usually for the Top 4 as well.
     
  8. SteveP

    SteveP Active Member

    We require decklists so that we can publish the winning decklists on PokeGym afterwards! :biggrin:

    Just kidding.

    The Official Rules are clear:

    2007-2008 POP Tournament Rules
    14.1.3. Deck Checks
    At all Premier Events, deck checks must be performed. For all events,
    including Premier Events, POP recommends that deck checks be
    performed over at least 10 percent of decks over the course of the event.

    Here's the URL if you want to view the entire rule in context:

    http://www.go-pokemon.com/op/tournaments/docs/2007-2008/Tournament_Rules.pdf

    So, any PTO not doing deck checks at BRs (a Premier Event) are neglecting their responsibilities.​
     
  9. bullados

    bullados <a href="http://pokegym.net/forums/showthread.php?

    I've always seen list checks done upon registration, exactly as Vince said earlier. I've also seen full deck checks upon registration. In general, unless you have a WEALTH of staff for your event, it's best to just go with a list check at the beginning and a full deck check of the top cut. Less time, but still works on the 10% of the player base (I think it's more, but that's a conservative estimate).
     
  10. GL Mo

    GL Mo New Member

    Since we're discussing deck checks, I have a question about the timing of deck checks. At one of the BR I attended, the Masters top 4 players set up and were told to begin play. Decks were then scooped up and deck checking began for the top 4. I thought this was odd to interrupt the games after they began and wonder if this is normal standard procedure? Seems unfair to the players who then have to start again after deck checking is completed.
     
  11. PokeDaddy

    PokeDaddy New Member

    Mary -

    I was the the Head Judge for the event. I am accountable for that situation. The players started when another judge let them. They were not supposed to start since we were doing deck checks. I stopped the play.

    If there is an issue with this, a way to lodge a complaint is thru the POP account but yup, it was a mistake and I as HJ am accountable.

    If this unfortunate incident happened again, I would do the same. The other judge and I talked about it after and there should be no problem in the future. Yes. We all make mistakes. It is only those that admit it and learn and MOVE ON that I feel are in it for the GAME and not themselvesand their EGO.

    And no, I do not agree with Vince. He can run his Tourney anyway he wants and says that his the way to do it. We don't do it. Nats didn't do it. Worlds didn't do it. You offer OPTIONAL DECK CHECKS prior to play start. Many folks took advantage of that yesterday and all past TJ's events. If you were offended that I told you in private that one of your league players had an illegal deck, don't take it out here. I was being nice, private, and constructive so that you could help reinforce positive feedback to the player.

    Players own their decks and decklists - players need to get that squared away in their head.
     
  12. The Gorn

    The Gorn Active Member

    Here's what all the people who run tournaments should do...

    Do what Heidi Craig do.

    That's the right thing.
     
  13. PokeDaddy

    PokeDaddy New Member

    gorn, that's spam. explain please
     
  14. Lawman

    Lawman Active Member

    If optional deck checks are OK w/ PUI at the LARGEST tourney they run all year long (US Nats), why is it wrong then at lesser events? Those that want a check can get one.

    I like to look at deck sleeves and review the decklist to make sure all are Mod. legal and 60 cards are there. If the sheet looks OK....why go further?? The deck itself is the player's responsibilty. Read the rules. Remember the sheet handed out @ US Nats about player responsibility. I will be making copies and using it at future events!

    Keith
     
  15. SteveP

    SteveP Active Member

    I think you've misread the rules if you think a decklist check is the same as a deck check. Deck checks are required at BRs. Furthermore, POP recommends additional deck checks throughout the tournament, at 10% of the attendance. So, everyone gets their decks checks at the BR, THEN an additional 10% gets check during the BR.

    Obviously, it's best to do the complete deck check before the start of the tournament rather than wait. But, I suppose there's nothing stopping it from happening later.

    If PTOs choose not to do a complete deck check at their BRs, that's something that needs to be justified to POP. I suppose POP might "let it slide" if the PTO has a valid excuse.
     
  16. Lawman

    Lawman Active Member

    SteveP: Here is the tourney rules.

    18.3. Deck Registration
    Before the first round of a tournament, deck registration may occur. This process
    involves each player listing the exact contents of his or her deck (and unused
    cards, in the case of Limited events). To make deck registration easier on the
    event staff, players should sort their decks to match their deck lists prior to
    registration. These deck lists can later be used by Tournament Organizers and
    judges to verify that a deck has not been altered since the outset of a tournament.
    Players are not allowed to change their decks at any time during a tournament.

    So, as you can see, deck checks at the START of the BR are optional. Yes, the PTO/TO should check 10% or more of the decks throughout the day, but you dont have to do a full blown deck check at the start.

    Review the rules before you condemn another Prof. please

    Keith

    Back to back posts merged. The following information has been added:

    Here is the rest of the rule you cite SteveP

    14.1.3. Deck Checks
    At all Premier Events, deck checks must be performed. For all events,
    including Premier Events, POP recommends that deck checks be
    performed over at least 10 percent of decks over the course of the event.
    Whether checking a deck at the beginning of the event, or between rounds,players should be required to put the cards in their deck in the same order
    as the cards on the deck list to expedite the process. During the deck
    check, the tournament staff should look for the following:
    • Legibility: If the deck list is difficult to read, the player may be
    asked to fill out a new deck list. Special attention to should be paid
    to the legibility of the player’s POP ID and date of birth. Obscure
    abbreviations for cards should be clarified on the deck list.
    • Sleeves: Players’ sleeves should be free of consistent markings.
    Sleeves with a significant number of markings, or consistent
    markings should be replaced immediately. If this is found to be an
    issue after the start of the event it may warrant further
    investigation.
    • Total Number of Cards: The number of cards in a player’s deck
    should be appropriate for the event format. The deck checker
    should count the total number of cards in the deck before checking
    the actual contents of the deck to ensure that the deck contains the
    proper number of cards.
    • Deck Contents: The deck checker should verify that the contents
    of the player’s deck matches the cards on the deck list. The card
    title should match the card listed, and the set abbreviation and
    collector number of each of the Pokémon should be listed.
    • Card References: If a player is using foreign cards, or reprinted
    cards which have had significant text changes, the deck checker
    should require the player to present their reference cards or the
    Card-Dex entries where applicable.

    So, as you can see from the entire rule, the deck check can occur during the tourney, just not the start. Plus, it says 10 % of decks, not all the decks, then another 10 %.

    Keith
     
    Last edited: Oct 8, 2007
  17. GL Mo

    GL Mo New Member

    Thanks for the explanation that it was an error, Steve A. I am not trying to make an issue, I am merely asking the question if that is normal procedure or not. The TO explained to myself and others seated nearby that it was ok to do that, and I was just wondering what others thought since it seemed unfair to the players to have to start over. It apparently bothered me because it was still nagging in my head a day later. It's a general question I have as a player, not a criticism of your judging ability. We all know you are nearly flawless with your decisions and do a great job! Thanks for helping out the kid from my league with an illegal deck. I wasn't aware of the problem until you mentioned it.
     
  18. mcoville

    mcoville New Member

    I am a judge at Heidi's tournaments and I like the way she does it. Everyone is required to go through a deck check where all the judges look at every card to make sure it is legal and that the sleeves are legal. If a player has a deck that has any illegal cards she offers to let them barrow a pre-made deck that she has on hand or they have the opportunity to make changes and come back to the deck check line. This has allowed us to catch problems with new players decks and catch problems with damaged sleeves before it is used in a game and causes bigger problems.
     
  19. PokeDaddy

    PokeDaddy New Member

    Thanks Mary.
     
  20. SteveP

    SteveP Active Member

    Keith, I don't see how you come to that conclusion (10%, then another 10%). I suppose the first sentence in the Deck Check rule could be constued as a bit ambiguous regarding that all decks be checked, or just 10%. I read the rule to mean that the 10% is referring to spot deck checks to police those who might change their decks after registration.

    Furthermore Keith, when you quote from the Deck Registration rule, I think you'll agree that the deck list MUST be turned in before the tournament starts. I'll agree that the timing of the deck checks is left for PTO interpretation.

    Anyway, I'll concede that because the Deck Check rule is a bit ambiguous, a spot check of 10% of the decks through out the tournament could be sufficient for PTOs adhering to the "letter of the law." However, I take my example from POP and PTOs who run high-level premier events - 100% deck checks BEFORE the tournament.
     

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