Who is willing to help us?

Discussion in 'TCG News & Gossip Discussion' started by Rainbowgym, Dec 11, 2003.

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  1. Rainbowgym

    Rainbowgym Active Member

    Without giving a reason we are not getting leaguekits overhere.
    No answers from POP and Distributor on our emails.

    So I will try this way.
    Are there leagues out there, having left overs from the season 1, 2 and meaby 3.

    I will pay for the shipping.
    We have over 80 players, who were looking forward to earn those promocards and we can't give them a single one.
     
  2. Gym Leader Blaine

    Gym Leader Blaine <a href="http://pokegym.net/forums/member.php?u=15

    Just so you know this, cause I found out myself. We missed a couple of the first seasons league kits and I was told that you can not back order any of them if that is what you are looking to do.

    I wish I could help, be we dont have many extra of the league kits we order.
     
  3. Rainbowgym

    Rainbowgym Active Member

    I can't order anything. our distributor is not willing to send us leaguekits and not answering our emails.
    Here season 1 started december 1st.
     
  4. P_A

    P_A Active Member

    My son won a few of the promos from our gym, and our attendance has gone down a bit, so I've noticed I have a few extras. I'm willing to help out as much as I can, but can't guarantee enough for your needs. I can afford to send a few well wrapped promos free of charge(unless you would need priority shipping), just pm me with your address and I'll send as soon as possible. Let me know.
     
  5. Michel

    Michel New Member

    Like I've said somewhere else, Rainbowgym, I find that a shame ! :mad:
    A league that exists for a long time and that was perfectly running with Wizards MUST be a PUI league too, even if you don't have a shop ! (actually I don't know if you have one, but that's not the point)

    80 players is probably more than any other league in your country. To give an idea of that figure in Europe, the last Gym Challenge in Antwerp has been played by ... 100 people. You almost have even more players than what we see at a Gym Challenge and you don't have a league ???

    Sorry, but I can't help you with league kits as we haven't started season 1 in Belgium. Anyway, even if it's great from you to try to help the kids, I don't think you'll may keep on trying to find promos by asking them to other leagues.

    A solution must be found by the distributor or by PUI. And I hope that the same will not happen in other European countries too.
     
  6. Sensei

    Sensei Team Compendium Emeritus Staff Member Trader Feedback Mod

    I`d just like to know why they are denying you this.It makes no sense from the outside.If you can`t get this resolved soon,I`ll try to scrounge up some extras I have of League and send them.

    `Sensei
     
  7. ukpokemonpro

    ukpokemonpro New Member

    I think the issue here is the linking of League Kits to Orders from the Distributor. Whilst that link exists I cannot see you getting any kits from the distributor until you order from them :(

    Unfortunately PUI has decided to charge the Distributors for the cards at a cost of £0.75 per card and they are scarce! We are finding that here in the UK a promo from Nintendo is a treasured thing.. and few and far between .. I almost side with the distributor here in that if they are having to pay for the kits and you are not ordering from them then why should they support you?

    Just playing devils advocate here as I believe the kits should be available on the same basis as they are in the US ie you order them and pay for them. This involving the distributor and charging them for the cards just results in these problems where they will not send you support if you do not support them :(

    Anyway going back to sleep now ...
     
  8. Michel

    Michel New Member

    Ukpokemonpro,

    What you say here is exactly what I was afraid about.
    Even if I can understand the distributor's point of view, this is a clear weird situation.
    The distributor has the right to accept or refuse a league and that decision is linked to the fact that the people are customer or not ? That's what we call a monopoly and an abuse of dominant economical position. I don't know in the USA, but it's clearly illegal in Europe.

    I don't agree with the fact that people have to pay a company to promote their products - league and promos are promotional Nintendo/PUI items and promote Nintendo/PUI products - but let's forget that point for the moment.
    Let's say I do accept to pay for that.

    Two possibilities : I have a shop and promoting Pokemon will bring new sales in my shop and in other shops too. Who will make money ? Eventually me, eventually the 'official distributor', but certainly PUI/Nintendo.
    Second possibility : I don't have a shop. Promoting the game will send players to shops, and then again shops, maybe the official distributor or another one, and certainly PUI/Nintendo will make money ... NOT ME !

    What could Rainbowgym do ? Try to find promo cards abroad, which is great for the players but very difficult to do, especially in the long term.
    Try to find an 'official' way to order league kits, and pay to promote the game (see above).
    Try to find another company and say to the players 'Sorry guys, but the distributor and PUI don't want to support YOU in my league anymore. You have three options, stop to play, go somewhere else, or play the new game I've found which is supported by the distributor/company'.

    In front of me, I have a piece of paper called 'Wizards Certificate of Appreciation presented to our Pokemon Professor'.
    Now that certificate is called Euro, if you want to be involved in Pokemon you have to pay, and not only that ... you have to be customer to one, and only one, distributor in your country ?

    Preventing experienced people to run leagues or tournaments, and giving the opportunity to do it to people who don't even know what a deck is but who are customers of the distributor is a way of working.
    Not sure it's the best for the game and the players. :rolleyes:

    But I do agree with Sensei. It would be interesting to know why they take that decision, and to hear their, or PUI's point of view.
     
  9. PokePop

    PokePop Administrator

    I would hope that PUI has put into their contract with these distributors that they must support Leagues even if the shops they are at buy product from a different distributor.
    To do otherwise would lead those other distributors to drop Pokemon.
    After all, why try to sell something when you are at a material disadvantage to one of your competitors.
    And less distributors mean less product sold for PUI.

    Not a good thing.
    Rainbowgym, I hope you are trying to contact the PUI international manager about this.
     
  10. ukpokemonpro

    ukpokemonpro New Member

    Guys I think you are missing the point here which is that if Rainbowgym is grey importing and not using the official distribution channels to buy product from then I can understand why they (the Official Distributors) maybe reluctant to spend their marketing budget .. NOTE NOT Nintendo's budget, on Promo Cards.

    Outside the US the Marketing budget for the TCG is coming from the distributors not Nintendo/PUI, now as a distributor would I want to keep shelling out money on Promo's if I am getting no sales back? NO! Why support a league that does not buy p[roduct from me and therefore that does not get me anymore sales?

    We have tried to put Rainbowgym in contact with UK distributors but with the dollar going south she can obviously buy boosters and grey import from the US far cheaper than we can buy from our distributors. But one of the consequences of that action is that she is cutting herself off from the distribution chain and the promotional support it offers.

    The only real way this will be resolved is if PUI/Nintendo support the rest of the world directly as they do the US but then that is so not going to happen whilst they can sell kits to our distributors at inflated prices... so the rest of the world pays for the US kits ... great strategy ;)

    going back to sleep... snore ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzz
     
  11. P_A

    P_A Active Member

    Unfortunately, grey importing is a fact of life due to economic realities. I personally have no idea why Nintendo doesn't have the same setup for European leagues as they do for Canadian and American leagues. Sure, the return on their investment isn't quite the same, but it's still a case of supply and demand. They will only get a return if they make an effort to help leagues regardless of their geographical location. I make a point of helping out when I can because I realize the situation as it stands is not equitable for all concerned. I hope people don't think I'm a bad person for that because I only hope to help people. My intentions are good, and those that grey import have good intentions as well. How would you feel if you were forced into the same situation. Perhaps a message can be sent to those involved in making decisions regarding policies on international leagues. If they make an effort to make promos available to all leagues instead of through middlemen, that will help. Also if league kits are priced the same worldwide that will go a long way towards cutting down certain problems, like grey importing. Who knows, maybe we'll get a stronger base of players with the right incentives. Until that day, I hope I can help not only my league, but as many people as possible, and strengthen pokemon in whatever little ways I can.
     
  12. RainbowRichards

    RainbowRichards Active Member

    Lia - I will be able to send the Season 2 & 3 promocards of which I spoke in our emails! Maybe in somewhat larger quantities, though.

    I hope you are soon able to obtain League kits through official means and on a steady basis!! :D
     
  13. Rainbowgym

    Rainbowgym Active Member

    I will clear out some points.

    I have contacted POP many times and finally got an answer on this issue, I even think it has also to do with you all reacting on this message.
    The latest email said we should get leaguekits, we will wait and see.

    The Distributor is not willing to sell us anything at this moment, no boosterboxes, nothing.
    We don't have a store and there is no storekeeper in the wide vicinity who wants to start a league.
    Most don't want it because of some issues they had in the past with the distributor. Others don't want to be free babysitters or have no space in the store.

    The current situation is a bit complicated and most of it not meant to be said in public.
    But I can tell that, because they don't like me, they don't want contact . Not as costumer not as Leagueleader.
    They insulted us from things we didn't do, only to hide their own lack of knowlegde and interest.
    We confrontated them with every lie and unknowledge and we were right about all issues.
    Those companies don't like it to be confrontated with their own mistakes that hurts.
    The only thing we want is that OP in our country is done the way it should done, nothing more nothing less.
    They didn't expected us to contact the USA, they didn't expect a second that PUI should take 2 single persons serious. That's what they said, we have the power and nobody will take you serious.
    We didn't expect to be taken serious, but what did we had to loose.
    We didn't have descend OP in the past and who doesn't speak, is not being heared.

    Some of our points, most have had good grounds otherwise nobody had answered us.
    I don't like this situation at all, but I will not let my players down. Even if this is taking more energy than I have.

    Grey import, yes but that also has a background.
    Not getting leaguekits doesn't has to do anything with grey import, we told the distributor we have other sources to get materials we need and they didn't care.
    I think it's not fair from you UKpro to point this out this way, without knowing the complete background.
    It's not only a matter of pricedifference, but also has to do with broken promises in the past.
    They showed again not to be a reliable source, how can I run tournaments when I can't get product.
    Why should I bring money to a company which is lying and spinning to me, as I can order the same product a mouseclick away. We had to survive for the last 3 years without any help, so don't blame me for getting connections to survive.
    If you look back at some of my posts you will read that we had to pay $110 for a prerelease Dragonbox to run the prerelease tournament. This was changed after a lot of emails with POP, but only after that.
    If we didn't follow OP news on website and here, than we were nailed for about $50 a box.
    I'm not stupid I see boxes on Ebay for $ 70 so why do I have to pay so much, at least we were promoting the game that way. That should be honored and not feel like being ripped off.
     
    Last edited: Dec 13, 2003
  14. PokePop

    PokePop Administrator

    RG: Thanks for clearing up what your situation is.

    Yes, I recall your issues with the prerelease.
    Let's hope PUI is willing and able to enforce the requirements of their contract with this distributor.
    Pop
     
  15. Michel

    Michel New Member

    Ukpokemonpro, if league kits are linked to grey import, I know a lot of people in Europe who will not have a league anymore :p

    'Pop, I do completely agree with you !

    Rainbowgym, that's good news from PUI.

    I really hope you'll receive the league kits and that such a situation will be the first and the last one in Europe.
    Ukpokemonpro said on another topic 'you have to be very kind with your distributor if you want POP'. Wizards had understood, and I think that PUI has too, that POP was in the hands of the people 'on the field', GL, TO's, ... and that without these people, no POP was possible.
    If we want to see POP run at a good level, we need experienced people and distributors have to be kind with them too ;)

    Rainbowgym has no shop ... if she has a league, where will the kids go to buy cards ? In shops close to the league. She wants to work to provide money to these shops, and to the distributor, and to PUI/Nintendo. She wants to pay for that, not only in time given to the kids, but also by buying league kits


    You're right Rainbowgym, and it's our job, as experienced people in POP, to do everything we have to do for that, even if we have to fight hard and see people unhappy because they can't play with their own rules in their sandpit.

    I'm sure that most of the European Professors are willing to work WITH PUI and the distributors to run the best POP in our countries.
    But POP has rules, a program, ... and we must be sure that everything is done properly if we want to have high quality POP, and if we want to see a worldwide POP.

    As Professor, I think I have responsibilities towards the game, the players, and I'm linked with PUI. Preventing that bad things happen to the game or players, and telling PUI if something wrong happens is one of the things I have to do. I'm not linked with a distributor, even if I'm ready to work with him following the direction given by PUI.
     
  16. Rainbowgym

    Rainbowgym Active Member

    Last message we recieved is. You won't get Leaguekits untill you have find a store willing to work with you.
    Nothing about if that store has to be costumer of the distributor.

    Still we don't agree with this construction.
    We have build up this leagues without any help of what distributor, store or former OP institute.
    Me and the other gymleader did put a lot of time and money into this game to keep it alive.
    We did everything to get cards for our players. Yes and that included grey importing, but tell me how can you set up a league if there isn't a single store willing to have pokemonboosters for sale on regular base.
    There are a few stores overhere in this country (not in my town), who are willing to set up something but absolutly not willing to be in touch with the National distributor.
    The National distributor spoiled all the goodwill of those stores, because the way they acted in the past.

    So what options are left?
    1. Don't have an official league (best option)
    2. Find a store ( no option, or do you think our local butcher or shoestore likes to run league)
    3. Start a store (small option, depending on the meaning of store, is a webstore a store? )

    At this moment we don't mind at all anymore about being an official league. If companies are trying to use us as puppets on a string, we can only say. Forget it.
    We will not let ourselves manipulate in a position being dependent from a store to get access to leaguekits or whatever.
    The past has proofed that doing things through a store is not working in this country.
    We wish our National Distributor and POP good luck with this construction and will watch from the sideline how things work out.
    We are independent and we will stay independent, we tried to give our vision on how to build up OP in this country and got as answer. "We have our own vision which is not the same as yours, we don't want to cooperate with you both and are not supporting any of your tournaments".

    That's the spirit, that's how you treat experienced people.
    There was never ever any cooperation, that's a two way channel and this is a dead end.


    Fine, we are back in the old days and then we managed without support, so we can do the same now.
    My best guess will be, that OP is dead in this country before it even started.
    We will go on playing the game, because we still like it, but we will do this under our own conditions, independant. We will stay in track with all OP rules concerning gameplay, keep our knowlegde updated through the compendium.

    If you don't understand our point of view, think about this saying (translation from Dutch)
    : lands wise, lands honor
    Europe is not one if we talk about points of view. Every country has it's own habbits/ways of dealing with some kind of issues/problems . Dutch people react/think different than Italian or English people.
     
    Last edited: Dec 16, 2003
  17. NoPoke

    NoPoke New Member

    Lia,

    you are forgetting the UK option that I have mentioned in our emails.... buy from our distributor and they should be able to get you league kits too. (Mind you we still don't have any leagues or league kits i the UK either .. the jan 1st start seems very unlikely at the moment: nothing changes ;) )

    The bottom line is that PUI charges the European distributors $1.30 per PROMO! That comes straight off their bottom line. So a 90 player league will require an additional $10,000 per annum in sales just to cover the cost of league promos.
     
  18. Rainbowgym

    Rainbowgym Active Member

    I really don't know if our distributor is charged that much. I know they were charged for the prerelease cards for around 1 dollar each.
    I mentioned them that they should got back on that with PUI/POP.
    I don't think that so much money should be payed for the prereleasecards. But that's their business I'm not taken serious by them.

    Leaguekits are here, because I was in a store who was giving them away (that one doesn't have a league, but we talked to them and now they are trying to start one)
    Unfortunetly I can't find the promo's anymore, can't remember were I put them.

    About what a distributor has to sell on product to get covered the costs on promo's for a 90 player league. I only know that they lost a lot of costumers last years, because of their view on the market and how to treat small (some specialized) stores compared to large stores (like supermarkets). Those large stores are buying a lot of boosterboxes, but not a single one has a league. These large stores will not start a league, they only want to sell product. Small stores were not getting boxes (or much later than the large stores) so they missed a lot of money. At the time the small stores got their product the market was overloaded. Owners of those small stores will not forget this and the ones who had leagues, stopped. Because they were not able to supply their players (customers) and some more reasons.
    This is what I call short term vision. Small shops were denied in their needs and those are the places needed for starting OP/League. Smoot running OP is always giving more sales, no doubt about that.
    Now the Fad is over and the large stores don't need that much product anymore, now the distributor wants the small stores back. Too late, those small stores lost their trust in the distributor and moved on and discovered parallel import.

    But again they only have to thank themselves about that. Still easy earned money has privilige before building up a solid base on the places were OP can grow. And if I say grow I mean really grow.
    All pieces of the puzzle will fall on their place in 6-12 months and I'm 99% sure of the outcome.
     
    Last edited: Dec 16, 2003
  19. Michel

    Michel New Member

    When I read what NoPoke says about the 1.30 USD charged to the distributor for a promo - how much will the promo cost to the league ??? - I just ask a question : who will pay for that ?

    Let's say 12 seasons/year and 2 promos/player/season = 24 promos/player/year = 31.20 USD/player/year. 80 players like Rainbowgym's league is approx 2500 USD/year !
    Quite expensive to promote PUI/Nintendo products !

    I've already said that a league brings new players and increases the sales of a shop (more money for the distributor and PUI/Nintendo too), but I'm not sure that a league (shop) will provide extra income enough to cover these costs. In addition to that, you have to make some administration which takes time, ... and time is money too if you have a shop.
    Asking a participation fee to the players at the beginning of each season could be a solution, but I don't like that.

    For your information, Wizards BZ kits were free in Belgium.

    I know that the print of the cards, the material that is in the league kits, the shipping, ... cost money to Nintendo/PUI, but once again, it's promotional material for their products.

    How long will it take before we find these cards cheaper on ebay ? ;)
    How much will cost the Gym Ladder material ? Will we have to pay for tournament's support ?

    Wizards support in Belgium ? One booster per reported player given by Wizards if the TO gave 0,5 booster/player in addition to the Wizards support and if the tournament was properly reported.

    What you want to do Rainbowgym, running a 'non official' league following official rules and running non reported tournaments but following official tournament rules too has been made in Belgium in the past (before Wizards was directly responsible for OP). It was called a 'Pokemon Club' instead of a Pokemon league. :)
    According to what you say here, and what you told me by mail, I don't think you have any other solution if you want to keep your kids happy. And to keep the game alive and competitive POP at a high level in your country too.
     
  20. RainbowRichards

    RainbowRichards Active Member

    How did the store get the League Kits if they are not running a League? To whom are they giving the promocards? customers? Players? Under what circumstances are they giving out these promos?

    The Battle Zone kits were (reportedly) free to the Large Chain Stores (Toys-R-Us, Target, WotC stores), but the players were charged League participation fees ($5 to sign up and $1 per playing session). These are reasonable fees to run a League, although I am running an absolutely free League (because I am holding League in a Public Library and they don't allow collecting money).
     
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