Why Phione is weak and overhyped...

Discussion in 'Cards: Strategy and Rulings Discussion' started by Magic_Umbreon, Apr 13, 2008.

  1. Magic_Umbreon

    Magic_Umbreon Researching Tower Scientist, Retired

    To be honest, I don't understand what all the hype about Phione is all about at all.

    Phione's attack is an enviable one, to "ascend" anything on your bench to a higher evolution stage from your deck. The idea being to put down basics and save on resources so you can draw into energy and stadiums or something instead of wasting celio's or bebe's early on.

    However, I think this is just the surface. Phione has its flaws, flaws I believe prevent it from being an unrivalled staple or in other words "broken".

    First, Phione can only evolve one pokémon at a time and this is at the cost of an attack. Much better than doing 10 or something small indeed but nonetheless spending more than two turns without damage is not ideal. It also requires you to pull other resources using other means. Which brings me to my next main point: starting hand.

    Using phione mid or late game is just giving up a prize as your opponent will no doubt have the pokémon out to do 60 damage. So, Phione's usefulness lies in the opening of the game where your army is developped. However, there is a flaw in this, too. In order for Phione to successfully open your game, your starting hand must contain:

    • Phione itself. If not, the Phiones in your deck are wasted space and searching/retreating is slow and ugly.Phione itself. If not, the Phiones in your deck are wasted space and searching/retreating is slow and ugly.
    • An energy. Simple, but it's still another card you can't pull off the T1/2 Phione without.
    • An evolvable basic pokémon for Phione's attack to be used on.
    • Enough resources drawn into or in opening to "push the setup". Evolving isn't enough if for example you have an energy or supporter drought. You need to push the setup with the right energy and more basic to evolve. Now, something like Claydol or Gardevoir anything that Phione can setup to setup is a major consideration. However, this extends the turns until you actually have a good attacker ready.

    While each factor in the list is no major consideration, getting all of them (and all are necessary) doesn't look hugely consistent - at least not by turn 1 or 2. Which brings me to my next point:

    Turn 2 or 3 attackers. Along with Phione come a slew of new pokémon. The included Mewtwo and Eeveelutions are a given in Majestic Dawn and I think look a promising counter to Phione.

    Both Glaceon and Jolteon threaten a 2HKO on Phione for a single energy. Jolteon can paralyse on a flip, and on a flip Glaceon isn't bothered by Phione retreating for an attacker or using its second attack (paralysis covers this too). Not that one would play these two just to counter Phione, the Eeveelutions are strong and versatile enough for many variational uses.

    Then there is Mewtwo. Its free attack can fuel it quickly if you use the right supporters or retreat/charge as a tech from the deck for a Turn 2 or 3 60 and possibly energies elsewhere. 60 is nice, and unless they are hasty even a leusirely setup of drawing and attaching energies for T3 60 can put early pressure. Because they had to attack to Phione, Mewtwo should be able to damage the pokémon they bring up too. Gardy or other psychics at this point may well not have enough energy to take advantage of the weakness.

    Disableye is good against Phione from the start too. In context of 60HP, 10 from Disable is very helpful while all the time excavate is helping.

    So those are my reasons for the impact Phione will have, what are yours?
     
  2. pichu bros. rox

    pichu bros. rox New Member

    I think its great in any deck with Pachi. Pchi to get 4 Basics and Phione, then switch to Phione to get all your evolutions. JMO.
     
  3. metalbird

    metalbird New Member

    Did you use to play when Jirachi was still usable Make a Wish? Yes i agree it is horrible but as everything as a starter but there are ways to get rid of it from your hand like Claydol if you don't want it and there are other things. From what i have seen this card is even better than Jirachi since it doesn't make you take 10 damage when you do it correct? So I guess since i have played for a long time and have seen Dunsparce and Jirachi be sort of playable i think these cards like Pachi and now Phione can be some what playable, I have not tested with it though so ya.
     
  4. Magic_Umbreon

    Magic_Umbreon Researching Tower Scientist, Retired

    Thanks, Id say that by the time Pachirisu. has had an energy and attack/retreat, then Phione has had an energy and attack/retreat you're actually left with no energy anywhere and one evolution when your opponent has 3 energys and 3 attacks available to do >60 and trample Phione attempts for prizes.

    That's a more condensed reason than the main post as to why Phione isn't that amazing even with Pachirisu. Deckspace too.

    But I do like your ideas of opening up more good starting hands for Phione, it certainly does that.

    The lack of 10 self damage is almost no help at all due to the increased damage of pokémon now IMO. I started playing as HL was being rotated, I've never seen an acual Jirachi make a wish card (only scans).
     
  5. pichu bros. rox

    pichu bros. rox New Member

    Even if all you pull off is one attack, thats an extra Claydol/ whatever that you just got extra.
     
  6. Muscovy Level X

    Muscovy Level X New Member

    Pachi does seem better. Still, best to give the card a chance, as people will find uses for it.
     
  7. Prime

    Prime Content Developer<br>Blog Admin<br>Contest Host

    I have passed the torch...j/k

    You make good points, but 3/4 of those points could have been made with Pachi too, and we can see how just 1 good point (it gets 3 basics or in phione's case, it can evolve a benched pokemon T1) can make the card still really playable.

    I think the best thing we can do is just sit back and just watch what the format does. If Phione is really not that great, then people will learn that and not use it. If it's all that and a bag of chips, people will eat that bag of chips.

    Never hurts to start a discussion though.
     
  8. kiwill

    kiwill New Member

    It won't be as good as Jirachi HL was when pidgeot was around. Now I'd rather use something else in most of the decks
     
  9. revdjweb

    revdjweb New Member

    with de-evolution attacks and powers becoming a resurgant part of the game i think it will be rare candy that we see less of. phione won't automatically be the go-to starter in set up decks but it will be another viable option next to furret, pachirisu and stantler.

    phione in a porygon z lvl x deck will make for some fast fast starts.
     
  10. doppelganger

    doppelganger New Member

    umbreon, your an english player, meaning we as english plaayer have much liited knowledge in comparison with some other people. serious, its avery cool card.
     
  11. KAZUTO!!!

    KAZUTO!!! New Member

    My input in bold.
     
  12. Magic_Umbreon

    Magic_Umbreon Researching Tower Scientist, Retired

    How do you get T2 Psychic Lock? You need an energy attachment to fuel make a wish, then there's the cost of three for Gardy.

    You save a prize, as a normal evolved pokémon could take a hit Phione couldn't. Resources for a Phione are explained in more detail as I can see you've read from the comments. My point is a collection of weaker reasons that IMO are collectively strong.

    How, when Gardy needs three energy and an energy has already been used on Phione?

    Again, it's a small reason but together with all the other reasons is my case. I never said this reason alone justifies it as overhyped.

    I posted about that in response to pichu_rox.

    Even with Phione, lack of Celio's/Bebe's screams "risky play" to me. For one, if you are in a position where they can do 60 as long as something remains in play (e.g. the Gardevoir setup you described - keeps dealing 60 until KOed) then Phione can't attack without scapegoating a prize. Again, small point big when combined.

    Those two do not have as many necessary conditions and can both survive a psychic lock. Sentret without Furret is better than a Phione without an evolvable basic.

    I haven't playtested, I don't know. But not three energy attackers IMO.

    Yes, scramble remains a possibility. This is speculative, scramble might end up in high use in Phione decks or not. Great point.

    With the 16 energy and 3/4 Roseanne's? But the Sableye player has a great headstart.

    Decks without Latilock may fear Kabutops. The turn spent to make Baltoy a Claydol is a turn without an attacker but yes, Phione/Claydol needs specific counters e.g. Glaceon. It's a great combo.
     
  13. Black Mamba

    Black Mamba New Member

    People want to play Phione... WITH Pachi??? So, you're going to waste 4-8 deck slots on basic setup Pokemon that are useless after T2-T3? Nice.

    Phione>Pachi because Call energy will probably come out, but Pachi wasn't any good anyways.
     
  14. Papi/Manny

    Papi/Manny New Member

    Where did you pull that number out of? Most decks will run 1 phione with pachi, just so you are guarnteed a t3 dol. With a 5 energy pachi start (which seems to happen to me wayyy to often), this is just amazing. Its a 1 card "tech" thats used to up consistancy. Simple as that.
     
  15. Darkwalker

    Darkwalker New Member

    Some thing you also have to take into account is if you will be facing off against a hyper aggressive deck. Many decks take the first two to three turns to set up themselves before they start attacking. The threat of activating your opponent's Scramble energy and all of a sudden losing that first attacker that you powered up (typical Gallade and Magmortar strategy) can easily put you behind the eight ball because you knocked out their Phione.

    As for Sableye; yes it can disrupt Phione, but it can disrupt every other starter as well. It also requires you to expend an energy drop to disable, so you aren't going to gain much in the way of speed when using it.
     
  16. revdjweb

    revdjweb New Member

    i really doubt that ppl will play pachy and phione in the same deck. more likely you will run phione and call energy or pachi and the tm that lets you search for evolutions. that way your setup starter can do it all.
     
  17. Black Mamba

    Black Mamba New Member

    1 Phione with Pachi adds up to either 4 or 5 cards by my math... and both of those numbers are between 4 and 8. I suppose it would work in decks that run a few stage 1's (Mag with Claydol comes to mind), but I'd still steer clear of it. I was half kidding with the 8, but hey, some people are crazy.
     
  18. Alazor

    Alazor Active Member

    "How do you get T2 Psychic Lock? You need an energy attachment to fuel make a wish, then there's the cost of three for Gardy."

    Warp Point Energy Switch, Rare Candy, and DRE.
     
  19. Yarac

    Yarac New Member

    Pachi+Phione

    I play tested a bit with some mock-up cards:

    2 Pachi (in case one is prized)
    2 Phione (ditto)
    2-2 Delcatty (double ditto)
    4 Roseanne
    4 Celio
    4 Felicity (to dump any extra Pachi/Phione/skitty/delcatty along with energy)
    3-2-3 line of the new MD Infernape
    3-2-3 line of Typhlosion
    4 Rare candy
    2 Night Maintenance
    18 fire energy

    Normally, 2 stage twos in a focused deck like this is just asking for slow-start death, and it does consistently lose the first 2-3 prize cards (the night maintenances are key) before getting set up and roaring back against straight GG (not PLOX) and MagPhlosion. Probably not the best build, but the Pachi/Phione combination work wonders in a deck that would otherwise be unplayable (BTW that new Ape is impressive...)
     
    Last edited: Apr 13, 2008
  20. ryanvergel

    ryanvergel New Member

    Wasn't it you who said magmortar was bad?
     

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