Pokémon TCG: Sword and Shield—Brilliant Stars

Worlds Judging... questionable conduct?

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Lawman said:
On a side note, my son found a deck with 59 cards in the LCQ (his oppo in rd 2) and alerted the judges as they were coming to get the deck. The list only had 59 cards too. Illegal deck + illegal list = GL. I, along with several others, advised him to do pile shuffles of all his oppo's just to look for this type of error.
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I'm one of those players who won't let my opponent shuffle my deck at the start of the game. If he wants, he can call over the judge to do it. That's only at the start of the game. Later on, after he's seen what my deck is, I don't care anymore.

"Do you mind if I pile shuffle your deck and count your cards?"

"Why?"

"I don't think you shuffled your deck well enough, and I don't think you have 60 cards."

Kind of a rude jesture if you ask me, unless of course you actually witnessed a bad or non-shuffle, and your opponent's deck appears to have too many/few cards.

Has the game really evolved to such levels of suspitions and mis-trust?
 
Sorry, I'll be more specific. And again, I think MOST of the judges were fine. I'm just saying a FEW weren't being so professional, and that maybe you guys can stress to them in the future that this is a kid's event and that they need to chillax.

1. Judge (red shirt) yelling at volunteer (green shirt) in front of everyone. Whether justified or not, that's not okay.
2. Judge (red shirt) yelling at players to get out of the "non watching area" when it was in fact a place that people could watch the matches. Another judge (or a volunteer, can't remember) told them to move back. (Better scenario: Judge asks another judge if people can be standing there, yelling avoided).
3. Two people told me they were yelled at for watching a match or two because they were "deck scouting." One of them was not even in the tournament, and when trying to tell the guy, he was like "Nope. You are deck scouting. Out. Don't argue with me." I heard another similar scenario, though the judge was nicer and not "telling" them what they were doing.
4. When I was taking photos with my press pass, this one judge was CONSTANTLY down my throat. I asked the Schells if they were experiencing any similar problems, and they said no. I was trying to take photos of the top matches as they were, and I was obstructing absolutely no one's view, and yet he is yelling at me to "hurry up" and "you got your photo, now leave." I think his talking was more distracting than anything. I didn't get my photo first of all, and secondly he acted like I was going to print out the photos during the match and show them to the other player, even though I wasn't even taking pics of the cards. Two of the volunteers standing their gave me "Geez, what's his problem?" looks, so I wasn't just imagining it. :p
5. One little kid was telling me how one of the judges yanked his friend away from the playing area borders and practically knocked him off his feet in doing so (accidentally of course). I was HOPING he was exaggerating, since you don't EVER touch kids at an event like this, but I could he was being honest. It sounds like the judge had just gone a little overboard.
6. Judge yells at me with my press pass for "gathering a group of people" around myself in a non-watching area, when there were like three people and I did not even know them. He made my heart race with his "No, you were doing it. No arguing." attitude. I would have moved even if I was or not doing it, since I was only temporarily standing there anyways.
7. Other general "rudeness" revolving around people watching matches. Geez, why don't they just put the matches behind closed doors if no one is allowed to watch or there are so many problems?

But yeah, those were some of the problems. It was just general rudeness and roughness, and people seeming to take the power they had to their head. Some of it was probably justified, though also probably overboard.

And again, I am ONLY bringing this stuff up not to start trouble, but so perhaps you guys can pay closer attention to things that go on like this in the future. I don't just randomly post in topics to start trouble, especially when I am going to see many of you IRL in the future.
 
Since we're talking about judges and deck checks, I thought I'd share these two GOOD experiences, just to give a balanced view of things that happened at worlds.

1) My son was playing in juniors on saturday, and he made a minor change to the decklist that morning before he went down for registration. He had forgotten to write in one DRE on the decklist, so the decklist contained only 59 cards. We handed this in. An hour later, when he sat down for his first match, a green shirt came over to him with his decklist to inform him that it contained only 59 cards. We quickly corrected it, and started the tournament with a legal decklist and legal deck. Disaster averted.

2) A friend's son was playing in senior's LCQ, and one of the judges had made a call on the procedure for psychic cut. Because I was HJ at our nationals, he came to discuss the call with me after his son had lost the match. I thought it was questionable, and suggested he talk it over with the senior's HJ. Although the match was over, and nothing could be done about it, at least if it was incorrect, they could change the ruling for later matches. The Senior's HJ listened, and agreed, and I believe held a quick meeting with the rest of the senior's judges to correct the ruling.

So judges are human, and they DO make mistakes, but they DO listen, and are willing to correct them.

One thing people haven't talked about is how MANY rulings the judges made correctly over the 3 days between competitors many of whom didn't speak english. I'm not saying judges can do no wrong. But they really are there to try to maintain fairness for ALL the players, not just for YOUR friends. What do you think would happen at these tournaments WITHOUT the judges?

Let me tell everybody something. Being a judge is hard. I welcome the challenge and the responsibility, but it is not easy standing over two juniors and telling one of them that because of a mistake they made, that they have to lose the game. It's not easy to do that with any player. When I judge an event, the one thing I hope for is that nobody has to call me over.

You may disagree with rulings, and calls, but please try to be respectful. The game would be a lot worse without the judges.
 
Also, alot of the red shirts were instructed by PUI to be "crowd control". So, asking people to move or not deck scout WAS part of their job. After telling people over and over to not scout, etc....it gets a bit old and could lead some to be a bit less polite the next 1000 times they have to say it. I am not condoning any "rudeness" by anyone, just explaining why some may have become a bit "short" with some people.

Keith

PS Thx WPM for specifics.....it helps for the discussion!

Back to back posts merged. The following information has been added:

SteveP said:
I'm one of those players who won't let my opponent shuffle my deck at the start of the game. If he wants, he can call over the judge to do it. That's only at the start of the game. Later on, after he's seen what my deck is, I don't care anymore.

"Do you mind if I pile shuffle your deck and count your cards?"

"Why?"

"I don't think you shuffled your deck well enough, and I don't think you have 60 cards."

Kind of a rude jesture if you ask me, unless of course you actually witnessed a bad or non-shuffle, and your opponent's deck appears to have too many/few cards.

Has the game really evolved to such levels of suspitions and mis-trust?
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At an event of that level, I trust no one with the prizes that are out there. Too many folks will do things to "grab the brass ring". I would pile shuffle my momma's deck if she sat down across from me. :biggrin: I have judged at all the levels and have seen some slick things done. All players should take this position IMO. We are there to play a game FAIRLY (well, not me....I havent played a santioned event in over a year....too busy running and judging them).

Keith
 
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Lawman said:
At an event of that level, I trust no one with the prizes that are out there. Too many folks will do things to "grab the brass ring". I would pile shuffle my momma's deck if she sat down across from me. :biggrin: I have judged at all the levels and have seen some slick things done. All players should take this position IMO. We are there to play a game FAIRLY (well, not me....I havent played a santioned event in over a year....too busy running and judging them).

Keith
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Well, your position proves my point NOT to allow my opponent the oppurtunity to accidently "scout" the contents of my deck by doing extensive shuffling instead of just a simple cut. Maybe the pile shuffle is a "slick" move to peek at my deck in an attempt to gain some kind of advantage about what his opening active pokemon should be. I have a fellow professor/friend who actually played against a high-ranking player who shuffled his deck in such a matter that it was possible to view his deck contents.

Players AND judges need to lighten up and assume that most players are honest. Watch me shuffle my deck, cut it, and be done with it. That's my take. Leave deck counts to the judges.
 
WPM: A press pass is not a license to do whatever you want to cover an event, PUI has an event to run, and it seems clear to me that at times you came a little too close for comfort (granted, I've done the same a time or two, but I've generally learned to maintain a safe distance). Remember, they're (effectively) giving away thousands of dollars of their money out to people, and they have a right to see that a certain level of control is maintained.
 
SteveP: A properly done pile shuffle NEVER exposes a single card (unlike a riffle can, or "simple cuts") and are very fast and an easier way in smaller hands to shuffle IMO. It isnt a "gaming" issue. Every player has the right to shuffle or cut their oppo's deck.

Keith
 
pile shuffling

Keith I teach our kids to do a 6 pile. 6 piles are quick and make counting easy. It is a good way to ensure that their deck is at 60. We have been encouraging them to do a 6 pile After thier match so that they don't lose a card and then have to chase it down after the round has ended.

As you pointed out doing a pile shuffle is easer for little hands to do than a riffle. We do have to get the players used to shuffling their opponets deck each and every time thier opponet handles it. Every time your opponet gets to handle thier deck is an opportunity to do something wrong.

Not just shuffling but proper randomizing ones opponets deck is important to keeping the game fair.

Tom Shea
 
Since I was staff at Nats, I can see some of the behavior of the red shirts being kinda over the top, but the one near my area for the PR was nice about it, wasn't too mean to anybody, he asked politely to move out, or pass through.

This event was run in a great way though.

~Duke
 
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@ Lawman: Yeah, I am sure they got tired of repeating the same stuff and maybe went overboard at times. BUT, they do need to maintain a level of professionalism. Again, most of the "red shirts" were fine.

@ Yoshi: No, I was never in anyone's way at any time. That was my absolute first priority. The guy was just a jerk, and even the volunteers were like o_O. He just seemed to "enjoy" his position a little too much. I kept trying to get his name but failed.

@ DFB: My first example had nothing to do with you. :p
 
Water Pokemon Master said:
@ Lawman: Yeah, I am sure they got tired of repeating the same stuff and maybe went overboard at times. BUT, they do need to maintain a level of professionalism. Again, most of the "red shirts" were fine.
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I agree that there must be an appropriate level of professionalism during any event, no matter the stakes of that event. I was one of the 'Reds' charged with security during the event. I worked in various locations, including Masters through Top 16, Juniors during Top 8 / 4, and with the Artist signings Sunday afternoon.

The duties that we were given was to keep play and staff areas clear, which included some of the better watching points. I did not have any problems in these areas, unlike in the past. However, you must remember, part of providing security is to also protect the players and the spectators. This may seem a bit over the top, but I remember an incident in 2006 where a player in the juniors was hit by an adult that was a bit over zealous in their spectating. Anyone remember why the Japanese had to cancel all their battle roads and other events this year? Threats against the events. Now I am not saying that happened at Worlds, but it is the job of PUI to provide a safe environment to the players.

My real job, in the real world is to provide security to a facility that has roughly 1,500 employees and another 1,000 guests / visitors each day, not to mention the multi hundreds of million dollars in property itself. I take my jobs, whether at home or at Worlds seriously. I have to, my friends and family are in that location as well, I would not want anything to happen to them, any more than I would want anything to happen to you or anyone else.

I expected the same of any of the other 'Reds' and 'Greens' on the security team. I think they all did a good job. Some may have gone a bit over the top, however none of those issues were voiced to me, or anyone that would have let me know about them.

Water Pokemon Master said:
@ Yoshi: No, I was never in anyone's way at any time. That was my absolute first priority. The guy was just a jerk, and even the volunteers were like o_O. He just seemed to "enjoy" his position a little too much. I kept trying to get his name but failed.
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I cannot really speak for this, other than to say I hope this was not me. A press pass is not a go anywhere anytime you want pass. It is given by PUI / TPC to give appropriate access to areas not normally available to the public. I personally did not have any issues with the press, and I worked with quite a few members of the local media and the Japanese press that was on hand. I did a couple times where members of the press did come between games and their Judges, which the judge either moved themselves or asked the press member to relocate. Never did I see any Judge or other Staff member get pushy with a member of the press. They had their own job to do, just like we did.

Water Pokemon Master said:
@ DFB: My first example had nothing to do with you. :p
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That 'Red' DFB was referring to was me during the Juniors Top 8 matches.
 
I can vouch for EeveeLover as one of the most professional-acting red-shirts out there.

I personally am not a big fan of the press. Freedom of the press is a huge article in our Constitution, so we accomodate the press, even though they are sometimes nothing more than paparazzi.

I wasn't there, but if Wayne is any indication of the actions and attitudes of the red-shirts, I say they were just doing their job. I'd much rather have an intimidating, "poised-to-strike" doberman protecting and patroling my streets than a timid, "all-bark-no-bite" chihuahua.

There will always be animosity between the press and those who try to control them.
 
Mloclam said:
judging was terrible
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I am going to delete the post, and make a point to all.

This type of "single shot"is not to be encouraged.

Explain yourself a little better please.

In my opinion, the judging was spot on, and none of my group had any concerns at all.

But, as a mod, simple statements like this don't bring us anywhere.

The judges and "red shirts" are big boys and girls, they can take the criticism.

They have the right to answer, but noone can answer to a general statement such as this.

Vince
 
Just my two cents:
I was 2-1 and playing against someone from another country. He did Chatot Mimic for 6. His next turn, he drew, laid down Empoleon Lv.X, and an Energy. He should have had 5 cards in his hand. He had 6. I called over a judge. I tried to tell the judge the situation and the opponent is yelling. The judge does little to stop him from yelling. The judge tells me he "can't logically figure it out." We go through it again. The opponent then says that he played Roseanne's Research that turn. I said, "No, you played it last turn. That's why it's in your discard pile." He moves Roseanne, from the discard pile, IN FRONT OF THE JUDGE, to where his Supporter should be if he played it that turn. I protest the whole thing. The guy gets no warning, loses no cards, is allowed to take his turn, and the Roseanne is left out there like he played it that turn. To top it off, the exchange with the judge took 7 minutes. I asked for an extension and he arbitrarily says he'll give me 3 minutes, blaming me for "arguing" when in fact I was just trying to be heard over my opponent shouting. In fact, it seemed that the judge was annoyed for simply having to come over to the table.

I'll take the blame for not calling over the head judge, but seriously, that was the worst case of "judging" I have ever experienced.
 
Lawman said:
SteveP: A properly done pile shuffle NEVER exposes a single card (unlike a riffle can, or "simple cuts") and are very fast and an easier way in smaller hands to shuffle IMO. It isnt a "gaming" issue. Every player has the right to shuffle or cut their oppo's deck.

Keith
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I may have missed this, but where does it say you have the right to shuffle your opponent's deck? I always thought you had the right to cut their deck, and they could extend you the privilege of shuffling their deck if they wanted. My problem is that I really do not trust my oppo to shuffle my deck in a way that keeps the content of my deck hidden to them, and I have rejected several attempts in the past without any complaint from my opponent.
 
Crosplat said:
I may have missed this, but where does it say you have the right to shuffle your opponent's deck? I always thought you had the right to cut their deck, and they could extend you the privilege of shuffling their deck if they wanted. My problem is that I really do not trust my oppo to shuffle my deck in a way that keeps the content of my deck hidden to them, and I have rejected several attempts in the past without any complaint from my opponent.
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This is where a review of the tourney rules and the penalty guidelines come in handy prior to major events! Rule 7 of the Tourney Rules involve shuffling. I recommend that every player read these documents. They can be found on the www.go-pokemon.com site. Click on OP, then click on "rules and resources". Click on the document you want to see.

7. Shuffling
Each player’s deck is expected to be fully randomized at the start of each game and
during the game as card effects require. In order to achieve randomness, players are
allowed to riffle, pile, or otherwise shuffle their decks until they are satisfied that the
deck is random. Randomization must be done in the presence of the player’s opponent.
Care should be taken to assure that the cards in the deck are not harmed or revealed
during the shuffle.
After the shuffle, the deck must be offered to the player’s opponent to be cut once.
Cutting the deck consists of creating two separate stacks of cards by removing a portion
of the top of the deck, and then placing it under the remaining portion. Players should
take care to not reveal any of their opponent’s cards while cutting. Cutting into more than
two stacks is considered a shuffle.
Instead of cutting, the opponent may choose to shuffle the deck. This shuffle should be
brief, and when it concludes, the deck’s owner is allowed to cut the deck once as
described above. Players should take care when shuffling an opponent’s deck, as the
cards in that deck are not the shuffling player’s property. At this point, the deck should be
sufficiently randomized to both players’ satisfaction.
If either player still does not feel that either deck is sufficiently randomized, or if a player
wishes to not offer his or her deck to an opponent for randomization, a judge must be
called over to shuffle the deck(s) in question. No player is allowed to shuffle or cut after
the judge’s shuffle.

Keith
 
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