Keep 'Em Up!!!!

[Fawkes0126]

I must say that I think that this whole debate around keeping the Ten Commandments up is extremely ridiculous. Our country was made focusing on God and his son, so we need to keep these up as a statement of the majority of our beliefs. This is freakin' ridiculous!

[yoshi1001]

Last Time I checked, this discussion was so two weeks ago. ;)

Keep in mind that this country was also made to take into account the will of the minority. And sometimes, the minority is right (unless they're against me ;) ).

[SD PokeMom]

As one who is non-Christian, I believe the removal of the 'monument' was completely right. What that monument did was give official governmental sanction to one particular religion over all others...and that is WRONG. This country was not 'made focusing on god and his son'; freedom to worship in whatever manner one feels called to is what this country was founded on.

'mom

[dkates]

Well said, PokeMom. I'm not Christian either (I'm Jewish), and my faith even has the 10 Commandments, but I still believe that a monument dedicated to a specific religious principle belongs only in a place of worship, if there. Some faiths don't support even that. Yes, far more than half of all Americans are Christian, but this is officially not a Christian country, and anything that would testify to the contrary is contrary to the First Amendment.

[Captain Obviousx1]

This country was founded by those who followed the Christian faith.

All of our money says "In God We Trust" on it.

God is in the Pledge of Allegiance.

Stuff like that makes me think the monument should have stayed...but obviously it offends people, and anything offensive is immediately deemed taboo in our PC country known as the US. I see both sides, but I think it should have stayed...

[Fawkes0126]

Well said captain. With the rest of you, I must say I disagree. It specifically says things about God in many of our documents. Even if you are a non- Christian, I think that since the country was founded upon the belief of free worship, the founders made up their documents with their God in mind. BTW, anyone who believes in the Theory of Evolution, WHY??

[dkates]

Why? Why not? It's one way to answer certain questions -- questions that religion doesn't touch on.

[yoshi1001]

"BTW, anyone who believes in the Theory of Evolution, WHY??"

Because I don't play unlimited. ;)

By the way, as I recall, Eisenhower put "God" in those places. Take that as you will. Besides, having those words in there does not justify taking things to another level.

Anyway, how would you feel if the Pagans wanted to put a giant Pentagram in your state capitol? Uh huh. Thought so.

"Even if you are a non- Christian, I think that since the country was founded upon the belief of free worship, the founders made up their documents with their God in mind."

A self contridiction. You admit the rights of other religions yet you seek to deny them those rights.

[dkates]

Although this country was founded on free worship, all of the founders were Christian. Therefore, they all had the same image, or at least nearly the same image, of God in mind. You said in your top post that this country was founded around "God and his son." Only Christianity accepts that Jesus was the son of God. You'll note that I will never use the term Christ, as it means "annointed," and I do not accept that.
You're right that many official things have references to God, but they don't use any other term. This is as neutral a reference as can be used, and allows each person to use their own perception of God (or other higher power). The Ten Commandments are a specific reference to the Christian religion. Yes, Judaism has them, and had them first, but take the time sometime to compare the Ten Commandments as written in the Christian Bible with the Ten Commandments as written in the Jewish Bible. There are important differences.
There are scholars from both religions who spend large portions of their time comparing the two Bibles. Even an amateur can see many differences, at many points. Some of these differences, many of which were probably mistranslations, have caused rift after rift between Judaism and Christianity.
Please note that this is a sensitive topic. Although I have very strong feelings about it, I have made every effort to remain as civil as possible. I encourage everyone who posts on this thread to do so, more so than with most topics.

[Mr. Grass]

I've found this topic very interesting. There's a courthouse in the city where my university is that is currently going through a similar debate. A large plaque on the outside wall lists the 10 Commandments. The issue's gone back and forth and may make it all the way to the supreme court.
The main arguement for keeping the plaque up is that it is a hundredsome years old and is thus "historical" and shouldn't be removed. The opposition argues that the plaque violates freedom of religion by sanctioning one religion over others.
My opinion? In this case, since the plaque has been up for 100 years, it should stay. It does have historical value and that shouldn't be sacrificed because some people consider it offensive. However, newer monuments (like the one I believe we're discussing) do not have such historic value. Putting up new monumants or plaques with religious text is one step away from openly supporting a religion. These monuments should not be erected or permited to stay. The tough part will be determining how old is too young to have historice value.

[dkates]

A rather radical compromise (never thought I'd suggest such a thing existed) for your situation, Mr. Grass, would be to allow some representation of other religions to be placed in the same area as the historical monument. The intended message would be an acceptance of all religions. However, like I said, it's a rather radical solution. The problem is that both sides have very good points. I'm guessing that, in your case, moving the monument is not a viable option. In front of a courthouse is not the best place for such a thing anymore, now that society apparently frowns on representations of any particular religion being in places of official import.
I, for one, am glad this topic came out. It's a big issue, and everyone seems to be handling it maturely.

[onederlnd]

This country was strictly founded on the belief that we have the right to choose our religion and that there would be a separation between church and state. Our original dollar bills (of which there were many forms at the time), did NOT include the "In God We Trust" motto.

In 1782 Jefferson, who coined the phrase 'wall of separation between church and state,' authored the first national motto. From an Deist and separationist like Jefferson this motto was clearly secular. "E Pluribus Unum," (One from Many) was this first motto and still part of the great seal of the United States. This motto appeared on the first coin in 1798 and in 1837 was required by law to appear on all U.S. coins. It still appears on coins today."

The phrase "In God We Trust" was added subsequent to Senator Joseph McCarthy's hysterical anti-Communist era in the early to mid 1950s. Prior to that, as stated above in the quote, all US santioned coins contained the Latin (correct me if I'm mistaken) phrase "E Pluribus Unum" or "One from Many".

Please note that we are talking about US Mint coins. We are not talking about US Gold or Silver coins, in which the motto was added in 1865.

For the sake of my own time, I wont go into detail, since most of what I'd say are already in the below links. But do yourself a favor, before you start saying phrases such as "Our country was made focusing on God and his son", please learn the history of what you are talking about. Sure almost all of the original law makers were Christian, but that doesnt mean that 100% of this country was created on Christian values. Infact, a very SMALL portion of our history is related to true Christian values.

Now, back to the original topic at hand. I have to agree with the removal of the monument. I would agree with resurrecting a monument for every religion known to man, that would serve a good face for equality, and freedom of religion.

Reference (these may not be reputable sources, but they give enlightening information on the history of the USD):
In God We Trust - The National Lie (http://www.quasisemi.com/ego/money.htm)
'IN GOD WE TRUST' On Our Money!? (forum thread) (http://www.positiveatheism.org/mail/eml9990.htm)
Coin Resource (http://www.coinresource.com/guide/photograde/pg_50cSeatedLibertyMotto.htm)

[UncleBob]

I would also like to point out, that before you start telling me what our wonderful founding fathers believed in and formed this country around that you do a bit of reseach on them. Mass removal and near genocide of the native population. Importation of other humans (occasionally alive) for slave labor (and, in some cases, ****).

Yay for our Christian Founding Fathers.

[ShadowOfTyranitar]

Fawkes, Evolution is a fact, not a fairytale. And I'm sorry if I offend anyone, but Religion is rediculous. I have a simple explanation for Religion and why it exsists. There are many things that people do not understand, and when someone finds they do not understand, they fear it. People use Religion to make sense of things that they do not understand and things that they are afraid of. This then makes people reluctant to believe in themselves and thier own abilities because they always have God to make thier lives work out. Religion is rediculous in current day life, because everything is explainable, and there is no longer a reason to be truly afraid. I'm only speaking my mind, so banning me for this would be pointless.

[UncleBob]

Ummm.. I hate to play Devil's Advocate here, but Evolution is *not* fact. It is theory (i.e.: "The Theory of Evolution" or "Darwin's Theory of Evolution"). Granted, there is a *lot* of evidence to support it, modern science does not accept it as *fact*. Same thing with the tectonic plates that cause the contients to move and earthquakes and such - all theory. :)

[Joshman]

ShadowofTyranitar- Just to let you know, evolution is not a fact but a theory. I am a subscriber to that theory, but I thought that it would be appropriate to clarify that detail for you.

As for the Ten Commandments, why put up a statue like that when there are so many other great American heroes who deserve recognition? I find that erecting statues dedicated to your religion or beliefs in a public setting is nothing more than hubris. I do not wish to observe the work of zealots in such a setting.

[onederlnd]

Actually, tectonic plates for earthquakes is fact.... THAT has been proven. But Evolution and The "Big Bang" are both theories. Contrary to what some may say, it is and always will be a theory, since as of right now, there is no way to go back in time and see for ourselves.

[onederlnd]

I do not wish to observe the work of zealots in such a setting.

This country was built on the fact that these "zealots", as you put it, can exist. Like it or not, we have the freedom of religion. We can publicize our religions in almost any way, shape or form.

The rest I agree with :thumb:

[)v(ajin_ipg21]

OK, so far it seems civil.

WELL except for that reply deconstructing Religion, PLEASE don't flame him. Be careful, IMO your opinion it is very WESTERN Cultural thinking, we beleive culture can be divied up into structures & social constructs, IN many other cultures there is very little difference between 'secular' and non-secular and religious life and daily life. TECHnically they should be one and the same. AND they are the same to many of our Judeo-Christian beleivers (and we cannot forget about our Muslim bro's & Sis'.

I am religious. It is in MY CULTURE so very difficult to deny. But I have my doubts.

I have studied Science, and therefore am an empiricist.

THERE many paradoxes here, CHOOSE your medicine.

As in the example above of a historical plaque of the 10 commandments, I am not fond of historical revisionism... leave it.

THE current issue, in principle I AM glad that it was removed if we SUBSCRIBE to this separation of church and state. WE cannot have OUR gov't force upon others or seem to a belief system (YEAH I like choice)

BUT if you look at our POLICIES, they are VERY much guided by religious beliefs: Abortion, Sodomy laws, Same Sex unions, etc VERY explosive and divisive issues.

I like that. THE FACT we can work out these issues. BUT some go too far.
Uh, the recently executed Abortion Doctor murderer. Oh yeah WONDERFUL, MORE Death to promote LIFE =/

Yes GOD can be a VERY dangerous inspiration *really no insult meant but WHEN religions is USED to JUSTIFY inhumane actions, it is an excuse, I BELIEVE in free wil!!*

PS Thanks for the info onedrland, never knew that... shoulda' sometime looked that up, I always wondered.

OOOOHHH YEAH!!!! NOW this is WHAT I want from a NEW BOARD.
RIP 'Ruins...

[Joshman]

This country was built on the fact that these "zealots", as you put it, can exist. Like it or not, we have the freedom of religion. We can publicize our religions in almost any way, shape or form.

The rest I agree with :thumb:

Never said you couldn't. Just said I did not want to see it in a public setting (as in a government building). Not to imply I want to see it elsewhere. Worship should be a private matter.

[)v(ajin_ipg21]

Not neccesarily Joshman... IF you are practicing faith... it's PART of every aspect of your daily life...

JUST that they NOT impose their beleif on you no?

[Android17a]

I believe in God and creation. One of my favourite scripture is Pslams 83:18 :)

[Joshman]

Not neccesarily Joshman... IF you are practicing faith... it's PART of every aspect of your daily life...

JUST that they NOT impose their beleif on you no?

I suppose thats a good way of putting it.

[UncleBob]

Actually, tectonic plates for earthquakes is fact.... THAT has been proven.

Wow... Err... you may be right on that one... I was probably thinking about the whole Pangea thing being a theory....

[onederlnd]

Note: Tectonic plates have been proven, but Pangeo (all modern continents combined to form one mass of land) is still theory. :thumb:

[Fawkes0126]

I can only encourage all to look into Christianity. I cannot tell you that you will be eternally damned, nor sway you from this unless I tell you how God has acted in my own personal life. I am NOT telling you that you're wrong and I'm right, I just want you to take these into consideration.

1. I have a disease, called 'Hirschprung's Disease'. I actually SAW an angel after one of my many operations that let me know I was alright.

2. I have been blessed with wonderful gifts. I excel in school, sing well, and act in many plays. Though I am not by any means rich with dollars, God has given me these talents, and that is more than enough for me than monetary wealth.

3. I go to a Christian School. We learn there to live a life as best as we can after Christ. I feel happier there than in any school that I've ever been to. I am accepted there for the goofball that I am, and noone has to act a certain way to be part of the 'in' crowd. Everyone is shown the love of Jesus.

These properties are what keep me believing in Jesus and that He was the Messiah.

BTW, this whole 'don't let religion interfere with government' thing is ridiculous. From the school board all the way up to the President of the USA prays to GOD AND TO CHRIST to help them make the right decision, and I think that the courts must not have prayed before they made their decision or else they might have done differently. People today have strayed too far away from Christ.

'To shine a light on those living in darkness and in the shadow of death, and to guide our feet onto the path of peace.' Luke 1: 78-79

[UncleBob]

The arguement isn't about the existance or non-existance of a god or the God.

The arguement is "Is it right for a federal court - who is supposed to be fair to everyone - to display a monument that clearly skews toward one group of people." Imagine being a Christian and being brought up on charges that you may or may not be guilty of. Now imagine walking into a court and the very first thing you see is a three ton granite block carved with various Satanic-related symbols and phrases. Oh, and this monument was put up by the guy who's going to be the judge for your case.

*This* is why the monument cannot stay. You want to put it on a church, great! Private property? Awesome! A courthouse that is supposed to represent everyone? No.


*edited to correct the word "court"*

[SD PokeMom]

How nice for you.

Really; if this is what you see fit to believe, and it makes you happy...fine. But do NOT insist that YOUR way...or your 'god's' way...is the ONLY one. That is arrogant, and wrong...and where I personally take offence.

You don't think there are non-Christians in all levels of government, from the local up to the federal level? Hate to surprise you, but there ARE...so making a statement as ignorant as "the courts must not have prayed before they made their decision or else they might have done differently" shows your naiveite about the world 'outside' your own little church-centered one. Believing in the Christian 'god' is NOT a requirement for public office, did you know that?

There's a whole world of belief, JUST AS SINCERE as yours...and in the case of the religion I personally follow, that's been around even longer than Christianity. There must be a good reason for that.

Please educate yourself, and show some respect for others' beliefs.

'mom

[onederlnd]

This is the kind of thread that makes me want to abuse my powers as tech support administrator. I'm very close to just locking it. Keep it sane, or I will take charge.

It's gotten to the point of "my religion is better than your religion, and you religion is wrong" .

This is the kind of stuff that I cant stand, mainly one sided posts such as fawkes', especially when it comes to a pokemon message board. We dont need this kind of stuff.

[PokePop]

As a matter of fact, I think I will lock it.
We generally don't allow topics that get into religious beliefs because there is very little open thought (it is a matter of faith, after all) that can lead to openess to others points of views and beliefs and it generally leads to hard feelings.

Please understand that I (we) are not trampling on anyone's right to believe what they want, we just can't have the boards used as prostlytizing soapboxes or spritual wargrounds.

Thanks for understanding.