Dusclops vs Claw Fossil

[BJJ763]

Hey M2k i'm finally posting it!!!

This came up at the Boston Sandstorm Prerelease and i promised i'd post it (would've posted the Rare Candy one but someone beat me to it):

Dusclops attacks a Claw Fossil with Judgement:

Judgement Flip 2 coins. If both of them are heads, the Defending Pokémon is Knocked out.
two heads are gotten and Claw Fossil is KOed. Claw Fossil has a Poké-BODY :

Jagged Stone If Claw Fossil is your Active Pokémon and is damaged by an opponent's attack (even if Claw Fossil is Knocked out), put 1 damage counter on teh Attacking Pokémon. The question: WOuld Dusclops take damage from Jagged Stone?

I ruled: yes for two reasons. One, in order for a Pokémon to be Knocked Out, more damage has to be done to it than its HP and Two (the main reason), Claw Fossil states "even if Claw Fossil is Knocked Out" to place a damage counter on the attacker.

Agree? Disagree? Why or why not.

[dkates]

I'd say no. The attack doesn't damage Claw Fossil -- it "marks" it as Knocked Out. It's more like placing a number of damage counter equal to the Defending's HP. However, Dark Gyarados' Final Beam would be triggered. Of course, D. Gyarados is only in Unlimited, but...

[Kyogre]

I would say no as well. It wasn't damaged, it was just KO'ed through the effect of the attack, not the damage.

[Pidgeotto Trainer]

Dusclops doesn't do damage so the body is not set off. Even if it's knocked out isn't the same as or if it's knocked out. If it said: or if it's knocked out then I would think it would trigger it.

[yoshi1001]

No. Saying the Pokemon is knocked out gets around "damaged" (much in the way damage counters are not damage) and the phrase "even if Claw Fossil is Knocked Out" is dependant on damage occouring, which does not happen. Claw Fossil is K.O.ed without taking any damage.

In fact, there are many ways for pokemon to be knocked out without the attack incurring damage. For example, rapid spinning up a Ditto. Ditto can be brought up from the bench, transform, then be knocked out without taking damage from rapid spin (for example, we'll say this is Donphan's rapid spin).

[dkates]

Well, it won't work with Donphan, since Ditto's HP on the bench is lower than Donphan's, but there are Pokemon with lower amounts of HP that have a version of the same attack, with the same effect.

[yoshi1001]

Actually it would. You switch for ditto, I switch for a baby.

[dkates]

Oops. Forgot that both players switch.

[DaytonGymLeader]

Disagree. The damage isn't being done. The pokemon is just being knocked out - you're not placing damage counters and you're not doing damage. Granted that the pokemon must have damage counters on it >= it's hitpoints, but this could be a new mechanic possibly, as this card is unique in it's wording. Again, we need chats.

[dkates]

Actually, this mechanic is not making its debut with Dusclops. Remember Revelation Misdreavus? If you don't, here is the text of Perish Song: "If the Defending Pokemon is Asleep and was attached with Night Eyes during your last turn, it is Knocked Out." No base damage, no mention of placing counters, just a Knock Out under certain conditions. Dusclops is different only in the cost of the attack and what the conditions are.

[BJJ763]

Knocked Out: A Pokémon is Knocked Out if it has damage greater than or equal to its Hit Points. That Pokémon goes to the discard pile, along with any cards attached to it. When one of your opponent's Pokémon is Knocked Out, you take one of your Prizes.Pokémon-e Trading Card Game EX Ruby & Sapphire Rulebook P. 24

Matters little how a Pokémon is KOed, the only way it is KOed is when it has more damage than HP (or equal). Judgement does enough damage to the Defending to KO it, you just don't have to put damage on it for the KO to take effect.

In Yoshi's example, the only way Ditto would be KOed is if it had more damage than HP (or equal).

[)v(ajin_ipg21]

It could have had the counters placed on it.
*devil's advocate*

[Fox!]

The Rule Book only states that a Pokemon is Knocked out when it has more damage than HP. This does not mean (nor did the rulebook state) that it is the only way a Pokemon is KO'd.

Think of KO like Poison. Cards that cause Poison only say that the pokemon becomes poisoned, not the whole (10 damage after every turn) bit (with the exception of Toxic, Tripple poison, and other poison that does different things). That being said, you can think of the Rule Book's definition of KO as a way around having to put the [normal] KO text on every single Pokemon card.

[NoPoke]

Misdreavus's Perish Song attack KO's a pokemon without doing damage.

devolving your opponents active can also KO that pokemon.

Forcing Blaine's Ninetales to discard its attached card can cause it to be KO'd.

All of these are through game state/status effects rather than as the direct consequence of doing damage.

Yoshi's example works too since no damage is being done to the benched Ditto by the Rapid Spin attack.

Under WotC placing damage counters was not considered to be 'damage'.

I'd have to go with NO as well. But its much easier to think these things through after the event.

You could (if you are lucky) win a whole game using Perish Song without a single damage counter ever being placed or any damage being done.

[GuardianTIM]

Going back to the Ditto thing, I remember once having the (Transform) Ditto card in my deck. I was battling a Gyarados, which has 100hp, and my ditto had 8 damage counters on it, while it only had 4. So I retreated my ditto, to bring out a Scyther, and then did 60 (coz of weakness) knocking out Gyarados.
The one thing I did fail to note is that we each had 1 prize left, and by retreating Ditto, I'd instantly lost the game... :-)

[BJJ763]

"It could have had the counters placed on it."

And as a result it is "damaged". While "placing damage counters" and "damage" are two different attack mechanics, the end result is the same - damage counters are now on the Pokémon. "Damaged" refers to "Does the Pokémon have 100% health? If no, it has been damaged (there are damage counters on it)" not the "Does X to the Defending Pokémon."

"Think of KO like Poison. "

OK. Let's. Between turns 1 damage counter is placed on a Pokémon. Since there is a damage counter on the Pokémon, it has been damaged. Now you check to see if the Pokémon meets the Definition of KOed - HP < # damage counters on the Pokémon.

NoPoke you have listed many effects of attacks. All of which would meet the criteria to check to see if the Pokéman has been damaged, and if so check to see if its HP is greater than the damage counters.

"Misdreavus's Perish Song attack KO's a pokemon without doing damage."

Who said? Never seen that rule. But here's an interesting rule:

"Q. Just to make sure I understand correctly: Say Misdreavus successfully uses Perish Song against a Spearow with Focus Band. If Spearow survives the Focus Band flip and wakes up, it can do Mirror Move to K.O. Misdreavus. Is this correct?
A. Yes that is correct. (Feb 28, 2002 WotC Chat, Q495)"

So when heads it gotten, does the damage come from the Focus Band and not the attack? If Perish Song does not do damage, the Focus Band must be doing the damage (or where does it come from)? Therefor, if you slapped a FB on a Claw Fossil, and got heads, since the FB caused the damage, the Attacking Pokémon would not get damaged? No. In order to be KOed, you must have Damage Counters > HP. Doesn't matter how the Damage COunters got there...

[NoPoke]

"Misdreavus's Perish Song attack KO's a pokemon without doing damage."


Since it doesn't mention damage anywhere in the text I assummed that it didn't do damage. Seemed like a reasonable assumption. I freely admit that assumptions are dangerous and that includes my own. Much of the discussion on rullings comes down to uncovering our assumptions.

I'd say that your conviction that the only way you check for KO'd status is with damage >=HP is also an assumption. A perfectly reasonable one I agree, but then I think mine is perfectly reasonable too ;)

As to the Focus band flip. Focus band says that the remaining HP becomes 10 instead. It doesn't say anything else. I had always assummed that this means place/remove damage counters until the pokemon has 10HP left. Which is subtlely different to your assumption that Focus band only ever removes damage counters.

[RainbowRichards]

It may have been covered, but my thoughts are that if both Perish Song and Judgement trigger Focus Band, then the (even if Claw Fossil is Knocked out) clause triggers too.

I say "yes", Dusclops would take damage from Jagged Stone.

As would it become poisoned by Cacnea/Cacturn's Poke-BODY Poison Payback, which also have the (even if ____ is Knocked Out) clause

(Sensei` put a whoopin' on me at the prerelease with those two)

[NoPoke]

Jagged Stone has the even if Claw Fossil is knocked out in italics and within brackets. It is reminder text.

For rules interpretations you drop the bracketed reminder text and end up with...


If Claw Fossil is your Active pokémon and is damaged by an opponent's attack put 1 damage counter on the Attacking Pokémon.

So does Perish Song damage the Claw Fossil? Well it does no damage for the purposes of the calculation of how much damage is being done. So that route is closed.
Does perish Song place damage counters? Lots of attacks do place damage counters and they explicitly say so. Perish Song doesn't, but could easily have said to place damage equal to the defending pokemons remaining HP.

Similarly I'd rule that Cacnea doesn't poison an attacking Misdreavus. BJJ, having a different set of assumptions about how a pokemon is knocked out would rule that Misdreavus would be poisoned.

Focus band only requires that a pokemon would be knocked out by an opponents attack. It doesn't place any restrictions upon how that pokemon became Knocked out other than it had to have been from an opponent's attack.

A ruling would clear it all up.

[wish BJJ would post the link for Rare Candy HINT HINT ]

[Timmy Two Tone]

On this one I agree with BJ :thumb: The claw fossil is being knocked out so it is being damaged, since it is being damaged it has to take damage in order to be knocked out... so you get to place a damage counter on Dusclops.

[PokePop]

We spoke with JImmer and among TC. A KO does not require Damage as a quid pro quo.
Dusclops does not get damaged back for KO'ing Claw Fossil.

[yoshi1001]

(does the Yoshi Dance)

Anyway, to give another example of how this works, in cases such as this, it's helpful to think of the Pokemon TCG as a high-level object-oriented programming language (such as C++). Think of a card having a function called damage and a boolean variable called knocked out (which is by default false).
Normally the attacking pokemon would call damage with the appropriate amount of damage, then damage would check to see if the defending pokemon is knocked out, and if so set knocked out to true. What Dusclops does is directly access the knocked out variable and set it to true and thereby bypass the damage function.

The reason, of course, that the rulebook doesn't cover this is that the number of cards involved is actually quite small.

[RainbowRichards]

The reason, of course, that the rulebook doesn't cover this is that the number of cards involved is actually quite small.

And, quite possibly, because the programmers didn't write the Rulebook... :p

[Big Daddy Snorlax]

.... it's helpful to think of the Pokemon TCG as a high-level object-oriented programming language (such as C++).

:rolleyes: The world according to Yoshi!!! :lol:

BDS

[NoPoke]

new definition of helpfull! LOL

[PokePop]

That's keeping it simple.

Shall I now describe the Pokemon rules using the Laws of Thermodynamics and Entropy?

[Skantid]

I say Dusclops doesn't take any damage. The card doesn't say you damage the defending pokémon, you only knock him out. Same for Misdreavus. Perish Song and Judgement don't have a base damage, and in the text it doesn't say it does damage/put damage counters, and the glossary from the rulebook only explains the TCG jargon in a general sense, and Misdreavus/Dusclops are the only 2 cards that have this effect on their attacks. So, let's look at the "attack checking", reading carefully the rulebook:
Base Damage = none
Effects applied to the base damage = none, since there is no damage
So, damage = 0 (At this exact moment, it isn't knocked out)
Attack effect= Knock out the pokémon (The attack does no damage, but the pokémon is knocked out)
If you read the rulebook, it says damage is applied before other effects, and to be knocked out isn't exactly the same as to be damaged.


You could (if you are lucky) win a whole game using Perish Song without a single damage counter ever being placed or any damage being done.
Actually that's what one of my favourite unlimited rogue decks does, I use Misdreavus + Dark Gengar. The opponent must flip heads twice or his Pokémon goes straight to the discard pile.

[onederlnd]

wow... that has to be the WORST comparison I've ever seen.... I know C++ and PHP, both based around the same idea, and that confused the hell out of me. Thanks yoshi!

oh oh, I wonder if I could explain how to do switches and classes in terms of Pokemon...... hmmm....... no, I'd probably get beat up.

[yoshi1001]

No problem, that's what I'm here for. ;) Hey, it made sense to me. Next time I guess I'll have to use assembly language as a metaphor. As soon as I learn it.

Anyway, I think I've pretty much said what I need to say about this. So before I make any more analogies, I'll leave you be.

[Orange Soda]

wow... that has to be the WORST comparison I've ever seen.... I know C++ and PHP, both based around the same idea, and that confused the hell out of me. Thanks yoshi!

Pseudocode:

bool knockout(CString attack, int damage, int hpremainder)
{
if(attack text says KO && attack is successful)
return true;
else
if(hpremainder-damage<=0)
return true;
else
return false;
}

[onederlnd]

Now see, I can understand that since it's in code, thanks Orange Soda...

[NoPoke]

Anyone care for some APL???


%(*&$@^%^)(*()&)(*^%$% there you go ! I'm sure that does something in APL just about any sequence of characters does something in APL.. the difficulty is working out what... See APL is like Pokemon.

[Broken Lizard]

I think I'm going to be sick. This forum needs a barf icon.

[RainbowRichards]

I'm more of a VB person myself, but from the pseudocode above, you could use just about any IDE to code it (dunno if this works in PL/SQL or TSQL, tho)

[Darkash]

I have to agree that Dusclops would not trigger Claw Fossil. In fact, I was the one who brought up the Milford ruling in the first place. As it turned out, I decided to knock it out with Random Curse and take the ten damage, as I thought Judgement would trigger Jagged Stone. No problems though, BJJ, I know that in a prerelease event, you need to make gut rulings. :thumb: