Points earned vs illegal deck

[JandPDS]

My question is what happens to a players POP score if they accidently particpate in a Premier event with an illegal deck and this is not caught until the top cut round of the event?

For instance what if a player particpates chooses not to have the deck checked before the City Championship starts in a tournement that has optional deck checks. Then this player accidentaly plays with an illegal deck (ie a Machamp deck played with 5 rare candy cards) and 13 Fighting energy, while the decklist says 4 rare candy and 14 Fighting energy) and this player goes 4-0 with it in a City Championship. Then this error is not descovered until the deck checks for the top cut are done?

I thought that this player would be removed from the tournement and would not gain any points for playing in the event, but recently someone told be that the player would get a loss in the top cut, but would still get to keep all the points that they earned in the 4-0 swiss play. Who is correct?

[PokePop]

This is not the kind of question we can handle in ATRT.
Moving to News & Gossip.

[waynegg]

Correct me if I am wrong Pop, but I think you keep the points you have already earned because there is no going back after the previous info has been finalized in TOM. Right? That is without redoing the entire tournament.

[Squirtle]

That's correct.


last year we had a player with 4 moonlight stadium, only 3 on the list and 61 cards in his deck.

He got DQ'd, but he went 6-0 during swiss. kept all points.

FWIW, the next day one of his opponents came forward to claim the extra moonlight.. they had the same sleeves and he accidentally scooped it up.

[Biggie]

When you opened a customer service ticket on this question last week we informed you that the penalty guidelines do not include loss of ranking points as a penalty.
Who is correct?
We are. :thumb:

[Scipio]

This is slightly troubling...it can be rather easy to take advantage of something like this and then end up saying "Oh, mustve been a mistake". This is very hard to do here since EVERY deck gets checked but still...I don't like this one bit.

[SteveP]

If POP already answered this question privately, why ask it here? Did you have some underlying motive to spark contraversy?

Going back and assigning losses for previous matches can really mess things up. In a tournament, it invalidates the whole pairing algorithm. In the rankings, it can re-adjust the rating points for numerous players, not just the infractor. Is that honestly worth it? IMO, not.

[Biggie]

This is slightly troubling...it can be rather easy to take advantage of something like this and then end up saying "Oh, mustve been a mistake".

Could you outline a scenario where a player might set up a situation where they could take advantage of this?
Not being snarky, I'm honestly curious.

[ShuckleLVX]

Could you outline a scenario where a player might set up a situation where they could take advantage of this?
Not being snarky, I'm honestly curious.

I think it would be pretty simple. A player could play that 5th Rare Candy, use its advantage up until Top Cut, where it would be finally noticed. The player then says "Opps, musta slipped in there some how", gets DQ'd, and walks away with a days worth of points. A 6-0 Record makes for good points, even without going into Top Cut, where you probably have a better chance of loosing a game then you did in Swiss. It would be similar to players who drop after going X-0 in Swiss, except this one got to play with a gross advantage.

[Biggie]

I think it would be pretty simple. A player could play that 5th Rare Candy, use its advantage up until Top Cut, where it would be finally noticed. The player then says "Opps, musta slipped in there some how", gets DQ'd, and walks away with a days worth of points. A 6-0 Record makes for good points, even without going into Top Cut, where you probably have a better chance of loosing a game then you did in Swiss. It would be similar to players who drop after going X-0 in Swiss, except this one got to play with a gross advantage.

I guess someone could try to actually cheat like that but even assuming that intent to cheat was not discovered the first time around, a one trick pony like that still gets that person a penalty that we do track. Penalties can be and are escalated if a pattern of behavior is shown. I don't know that I would risk a cheating suspension over a single events worth of points with a trick that is far from certain to give me a sure win.

[Prime]

Either way, it could be abused.

If you have all point changes null if a person gets DQ'd, a person could get themselves DQ'd after a bad day of losses so not to actually lose points.

Any system can be abused.

[nnaann]

This situation can easily occur by accident. I nearly played a 59 card deck for a BR after dropping a card out of the deckbox on my way out of my house. I luckily noticed and was able to replace it and the sleeve at the venue. I'm sometimes pikced up opponent's stadiums by accident and vice versa, so I don't think it's fair for a really harsh punishment. I think as long as the people who have been found to do this are tracked and POP can see if the same situation occurs alot for them, then they can be caught before they abuse it too much.

[SteveP]

In life, if someone causes harm, you generally can't undo it. So, you punish the culprit, then maybe require some kind of restituition, hoping those harmed will gain some level of satisfaction.

And, like Prime wrote, remedies can also be abused.

[waynegg]

Could you outline a scenario where a player might set up a situation where they could take advantage of this?
Not being snarky, I'm honestly curious.

Answered you privately since instructions for stealth cheating are not allowed on the Gym, but it can easily be done without ever being found out.

[Scipio]

I guess someone could try to actually cheat like that but even assuming that intent to cheat was not discovered the first time around, a one trick pony like that still gets that person a penalty that we do track. Penalties can be and are escalated if a pattern of behavior is shown. I don't know that I would risk a cheating suspension over a single events worth of points with a trick that is far from certain to give me a sure win.

Scratch this, Waynegg got ahead of me, and im pretty sure he got my point across well enough.

[M_Liesik]

Tangent question:

If an illegal deck goes 3-1 and the player is DQ'd from the event, should the player (and thus, his/her opponents) forfeit any rating points gained/lost from the result of those matches? What about 2-2, or 1-3, or 0-4?

[SteveP]

Tangent question:

If an illegal deck goes 3-1 and the player is DQ'd from the event, should the player (and thus, his/her opponents) forfeit any rating points gained/lost from the result of those matches? What about 2-2, or 1-3, or 0-4?
I assume your question is rhetorical Mike. :smile:

Unless you have a time machine, I'd say, let it stand.

The pairing system requires that you face players with specific win-loss records. That requirement "goes to shambles" if you adjust win-loss records and ratings (somewhat) post-tournament.

[M_Liesik]

Semi-rhetorical. I'd have a hard time taking anyone too seriously that argues that 4-0 should lose their points, but 0-4 shouldn't.

POP policy allows the player to keep the points they earned, regardless of the reason for disqualification, because the alternative has some pretty significant, far-reaching ramifications.

[TheDarkTwins]

Semi-rhetorical. I'd have a hard time taking anyone too seriously that argues that 4-0 should lose their points, but 0-4 shouldn't.

POP policy allows the player to keep the points they earned, regardless of the reason for disqualification, because the alternative has some pretty significant, far-reaching ramifications.

I don't have an issue of the player in question having a zero for the day, but I do feel that anyone who plays and beats them should still get there points becuase they didn't do anything wrong, just like I think anyone that lost to the person should have the game count as 0 points. I know this seems a bit unbalanced but if you punish the opponent that's not fair either. I think that if there is any solution it has to be in some middle ground that is fair all around.

Drew

[M_Liesik]

POP has chosen a zero sum system. If you take every player in the system and average their rating, you get 1600.00, regardless of what point you are at in the season. It's impossible to maintain zero sum if you strip the DQ'd player of his points for the day, and don't also strip every opponent he faced of their points as well.

Yes, there is room for abuse in this system. However, as Dan said, these types of penalties are tracked, and are closely scruitinized for patterns. It's unlikely that a player will gain significant enough ratings advantage to outweigh even a three month suspension.

[Diaz]

POP has chosen a zero sum system. If you take every player in the system and average their rating, you get 1600.00, regardless of what point you are at in the season. It's impossible to maintain zero sum if you strip the DQ'd player of his points for the day, and don't also strip every opponent he faced of their points as well.

Yes, there is room for abuse in this system. However, as Dan said, these types of penalties are tracked, and are closely scruitinized for patterns. It's unlikely that a player will gain significant enough ratings advantage to outweigh even a three month suspension.

By counting losses to a player with an illegal deck as 0 point games for both players, and treating games lost by a player with an illegal deck as a normal rated game, you could: keep the zero sum system, reward players who win against illegal decks, penalize the player who played the illegal deck, and ensure that players who lose to players with illegal decks are not penalized.

Just a thought. I feel that the system is only slightly flawed. The major problem clearly comes when a player gains a significant advantage by playing an illegal deck, then wins games that he or she would have lost without that advantage.

[TheDarkTwins]

By counting losses to a player with an illegal deck as 0 point games for both players, and treating games lost by a player with an illegal deck as a normal rated game, you could: keep the zero sum system, reward players who win against illegal decks, penalize the player who played the illegal deck, and ensure that players who lose to players with illegal decks are not penalized.

Just a thought. I feel that the system is only slightly flawed. The major problem clearly comes when a player gains a significant advantage by playing an illegal deck, then wins games that he or she would have lost without that advantage.

That makes sense. Zero out the players wins, but not the losses. That to me would be the fairest way to do it.

Drew

[Politoed666]

If I can say this without fear of repercussion, this is a ridiculous rule.

A player could play at, say, any event with no mandatory deck checks before top cut, such as States, and make out with a ridiculous record in swiss due to an illegal deck. When they went up for deck checks, they'd be disqualified, but keep all the points they earned! For some players (note that I am not one) who drop in top cut, this is practically an invitation to cheat.

Let me know if I misunderstand this rule.

[Shen]

Either way, it could be abused.

If you have all point changes null if a person gets DQ'd, a person could get themselves DQ'd after a bad day of losses so not to actually lose points.

Any system can be abused.

Isn't it easier than that? Go 6-0, say you have to drop for a family emergency etc, then leave before having your deck checked?

In any case, players still risk getting caught if they do this. If my opponent played 4 Rare Candy, and drew the 5th... he obviously can't play it, and I keep track of important cards like these... so if I use Looker's Investigation or something and catch it, he's out. It's not just me who does these things, either, people are likely to catch something like that when doing a play that involves looking at your opponent's cards or discarding from their hand/deck.

And if you're paranoid about this, six-card shuffle your opponent's deck before every match. AFAIK, it's legal. You get to shuffle while simultaneously counting their deck. I six-pile my deck before every match in front of my opponent to avoid situations like these, both so my opponent knows my deck count and so I know I didn't drop any cards.

[AzNightmare]

Wow! this really sucks.

People should always check their decks before an upcoming match.
Fan out your cards after the game to look for different colour sleeves.
Cards bewtween players should never get mixed up though.
At any given point, besides maybe a Stadium card, the players cards never cross the "imaginary line."

[TheGeneral]

I'd hate to be that kid that kept drawing into moonlight stadium, hand-clogging stadiums are not fun i tell you what.

[SteveP]

POP has chosen a zero sum system. If you take every player in the system and average their rating, you get 1600.00, regardless of what point you are at in the season. It's impossible to maintain zero sum if you strip the DQ'd player of his points for the day, and don't also strip every opponent he faced of their points as well.
Zero-sum stays intact if you convert all the wins to losses (and opponent losses to wins), then recalculate the ratings. That still might not be the best solution, but it works in the zero-sum system.

IMO, nothing needs to be changed though.

In 2001, my son went to the Tropical Mega Battle because the guy above him in the rankings was banned just days earlier. If players abuse the system, eventually they'll be caught.

[JandPDS]

When you opened a customer service ticket on this question last week we informed you that the penalty guidelines do not include loss of ranking points as a penalty.

We are. :thumb:

Biggie I am asking it here because I never received a reply from my customer service ticket. I am not saying that you did not respond. Only that I never received your reply in my email. So I thought I would try another forum as I was really curious to know the answer.

I understand why they are allowed to keep their points, but I still wonder if that is the right thing to do. What if a person has an illegal deck and they go 6-0 with it in Nationals until they get random deck checked and the 5 Rare Candys are discovered. And then it turns out that the 6-1 record that they got for playing in Nationals makes them qualify for a POP ranking invite for Worlds. Is it really fair for this person to get to play in worlds for using a deck that was not legal? Under the current system this scenario while unlikely is possible.

Back to back posts merged. The following information has been added:

Tangent question:

If an illegal deck goes 3-1 and the player is DQ'd from the event, should the player (and thus, his/her opponents) forfeit any rating points gained/lost from the result of those matches? What about 2-2, or 1-3, or 0-4?

Easy if a player is caught using an illegal deck that results in that player being removed from the event then the players that played against them should not gain or loose points. Thoes matches should be treated as if they were paired against a player outside of their age group. They should still get the win or loss for purposes of the tournement but the match against the removed player should have absolutely no impact on their POP score,

[Kayle]

I think the rule, as it stands, is pretty much fine. Modifications could be made, but the repercussions for cheaters are sound enough that I doubt it's worth it to totally break the system, and people who complain about losing/gaining points against illegal decks can be disregarded at each event (though on a major level that's not a good thing).

Some tips to people reading this who are worried about getting DQ'd at an official event, due to accidentally having an illegal deck, this is what I do to make sure.

- Before the tournament, DECK CHECK.
- Before EVERY MATCH, and preferably AFTER as well, COUNT YOUR CARDS. I do this by six-stack shuffling, and before I actually shuffle the stacks together, I count each stack. You should have 10 in each stack, right?
- If you finish a match early, go through your deck and lay out all of the cards again in a somewhat private space where people can't just walk off with stuff or see what you're running. You SHOULD have your deck memorized, and if you don't, I think it's okay to carry an extra copy of a deck list around (correct me if I'm wrong) - so you can check your list when you have a moment and make sure you're still running the same deck. If you can't carry your own list around, is it all right to ask a judge if you can look at it again?

I have walked off with other people's Stadiums before - but I've also caught it thanks to these checks, and managed to give the stadium back to them. I've lost cards in between rounds once and caught it within the next round, in time to make sure I had 60 cards in my deck (let me tell you, though, finding a new copy of a card you lost can be a pain. At least it was only an energy gain!)

Just take some extra time and be careful.

[TheDoctor]

I always get a deck check just to make sure I did't screw up, my biggest fear in Pokemon is getting DQ'd.

[MrMeches]

States should do Random Deck Checks anyway to help prevent this type of behavior.

Cities should do this as well if the staff is ample enough to do so. Time extensions can always be given if needed!

Unfortunately, dems da breaks! It stinks, but things like this definitely throw up Red Flags to those that need to see it!!

Fish