Base Set, Jungle and Fossil Set

[Nickolas_88]

Just out of curiosity what decks were top Meta and if possible please apply a decklist, and explain.

[ShadowCard]

Were there tournaments at time to create a metagame? It was pretty much just leagues, wasn't it?

If there weren't any tournaments, the "top" decks probably resembled theme decks or were decks centered around one's favorite pokemon and making that pokemon work instead of focusing on a particular strategy.

[Kayle]

...what about Haymaker and Rain Dance?

[Nickolas_88]

Well im not sure if there were tournaments at the time

Whats Haymaker and Raindance? is rain dance Base set Blastoise?

[Lawso42]

rain dance blastoise was a beast back in da day. with all the trainer draw power i.e, oak's, bill, etc. you could easily go through your deck extremely fast and set up with with pokemon breeder(letting you skip wartortle).

Blastiose: the original donk deck. :biggrin:

-Lawso

[Kayle]

Well im not sure if there were tournaments at the time

Whats Haymaker and Raindance? is rain dance Base set Blastoise?

Base Set Blastoise (Rain Dance) was, if I understand right, a deck designed to run through your cards really quickly - like shuppet donk - and get Blastoise out fast, as well as charging it up with lots of Water energy to do lots of damage with Hydro Pump (?) very early in the game.

Haymaker was a deck composed of three Basic Pokemon with low-energy, relatively high-damage attacks. The goal of the Haymaker was to harry and hack your opponent to pieces before they could do a whole lot. The deck was generally based around Hitmonchan, Scyther, and Electabuzz (I hear there were Magmar variants, too), all of whom could do a lot of damage for very little energy - Scyther could knock out most Stage 1s on the second turn if you had a Double Colorless Energy at your disposal.

I know there were more decks, but those are the two that come to my mind.

[niimou]

Stall decks, with Alakazam, Gengar, and high HP basics like Chansey and Snorlax for damage absoption (via Scoop-up) were popular in my area. It made the tournaments that DID happen quite tiresome, especially when the format was "go and win as many times as you can!"

Also, Charizard/Venusaur wasn't too bad, but keeping the energy flowing was a problem.

[Mewtral]

Hahaha! then when you put down MrMime, your opponent would be like crap! haha it was great!!
Or Ditto. :p

[TheAnswer3]

Wigglytuff was the BDIF

[Paperfairy]

IN order of both prevelence and effectiveness:

Rain Dance / Haymaker
Wigglytuff (BDIF IMO)
Chansey/Gengar/Alakazam stall
Golduck / Dragonair Energy Lock was popular in my area, dunno about worldwide though

[waynegg]

Haymaker- original BDIF

4 Hitmonchan
4 Electabuzz
4 Scyther

4 Plus Power
4 Energy Removal
4 Super Energy Removal
3 Gust of Wind
3 Professor Oak
3 Bill
2 Item Finder
2 Scoop Up

10 Fighting Energy
9 Electric Energy
4 Double Colorless energy

Jigglin' Cheese Maker- over-all BDIF

3 Hitmonchan
3 Scyther
3 Electabuzz
3 Jigglypuff
3 Wigglytuff

3 Energy Removal
2 Super Energy Removal
4 Gust of Wind
4 Plus Power
2 Item Finder
2 Energy Retrieval
2 Scoop Up
3 Bill
1 Professor Oak
1 Gambler
1 Lass
1 Pokemon Center
1 Computer Search

8 Lightning Energy
7 Fighting Energy
4 Double Colorless Enegy

Freezing Rain (aka Rain Dance)

4 Squirtle
4 Blastoise
3 Lapras
3 Articuno
3 Seal
2 Dewgong

4 Bill
4 Professor Oak
3 Computer Search
1 Item Finder
3 Gust of Wind
4 Pokemon Breeder
3 Energy Retrieval

19 Water Energy

The Escalator (I wonder if Scott still has the lifetime ban for tearing that kid's deck in half in Dallas or if it went away with Wizards of the Coast?)

4 Gastly
3 Haunter
3 Gengar
3 Mr. Mime
3 Clefairy
2 Clefable
4 Electabuzz

4 Bill
2 Professor Oak
1 Gambler
3 Pokemon Trader
2 Energy Retrieval
3 Super Energy removal
2 Gust of Wind
1 Item Finder

13 Psychic Energy
7 Electric Energy

Potpourri

2 Hitmonchan
3 Electabuzz
3 Scyther
2 Mr. Mime
2 Ditto
1 Kangaskhan
1 Ponyta

2 Scoop Up
3 Gust of Wind
3 Energy Removal
2 Super Energy removal
3 Item Finder
1 Computer Search
3 Bill
3 Professor Oak
1 Lass
1 Gambler
2 Energy Retrieval

6 Fighting Energy
6 Electric Energy
6 Psychic energy
4 Double Colorless Energy

Wildfire

4 Moltress
4 Chansey
3 Scuther
3 Magmar
2 Ditto

4 Pokemon Center
1 Scoop Up
3 Item Finder
4 Bill
2 Professor Oak
3 Energy Retrieval
2 Imposter Professor Oak
3 Super Energy Removal
1 Energy Removal

21 Fire Energy

Mono-Grass

3 Scyther
4 Venonat
3 Venomoth
3 Koffing
4 Bulbasaur
1 Ivysaur
2 Venusaur

3 Bill
2 Professor Oak
2 Pokemon Center
3 Gust of Wind
2 Switch
1 Computer Search
3 Energy Removal
2 Pokemon Trader
2 Pokemon Breeder
1 Item Finder

19 Grass Energy

No Energy Stall

4 Abra
3 Kadabra
3 Alakazam
3 Mr. Mime
3 Chansey
3 Scyther
3 Doduo
2 Dodrio

3 Maintenance or La
4 Potion
3 Gust of Wind
4 Pokemon Center
4 Imposter Professor Oak
2 Lass
4 Scoop Up
3 Switch
2 Item Finder
3 Pokemon Trader
4 Pokedex

The Sponge

4 Electabuzz
3 Promo Mewtwo
3 Ditto
2 Kangaskhan

4 Bill
4 Professor Oak
4 Energy Removal
2 Super Energy Removal
3 Gust of Wind
2 Computer Search
2 Item Finder
2 Mr. Fuji
2 Scoop Up
2 Energy Retrieval

4 Double Colorless energy
9 Psychic Energy
8 Electric

Active Stall

3 Magmar
3 Electabuzz
3 Ditto
3 Scyther
1 Moltres

4 Energy Removal
4 Super Energy Removal
2 Professor Oak
3 Scoop Up
2 Gust of Wind
2 Energy Retrieval
2 Item Finder
1 Pokemon Center
1 Gambler
1 Computer Search
1 Imposter Professor Oak

8 Electric Energy
12 Fire Energy
4 Double Colorless Energy

And there were most definitely tournaments. There was the Super Trainer Showdown Qualifier Tour which hit malls all across America and featured 6 tournaments for each of the three age groups and played out over Saturday and Sunday. Then there was the actual Super Trainer Showdown, which crowned the best players in the US and the few who came from abroad. Last but not least were the Tropical Mega Battles. The Meta was a lot different than it is now, as was deck construction, but it was there and you had to know it to be successful.

[poinko]

IN order of both prevelence and effectiveness:

Rain Dance / Haymaker
Wigglytuff (BDIF IMO)
Chansey/Gengar/Alakazam stall
Golduck / Dragonair Energy Lock was popular in my area, dunno about worldwide though

Around here, Wigglytuff and Haymaker decks were the same thing. People would lead with Hitmonchan or Scyther until they Oak'd the cards they needed to bring out Wigglytuff, usually turn 2 or 3 for a consistent 60 damage a turn. If the opponent only got one Pokemon out on their first turn, Haymakers would usually tear through their decks just to pull out any Plus Powers they needed to pull off the FTK (seriously, where did this "donk" thing come from :rolleyes: )

By Gym, people were using Erika's Jigglypuff (with Pulled Punch) to ensure FTK's, and by Neo 1, Wigglytuff had been replaced by Sneasel, because she was way more efficient.

After Rocket and Gym, Haymakers became kind of faux-lockdowns with Lass, Rocket's Sneak Attack and Rocket's Secret Mission, so they were able to deny the opponent Trainers in addition to spanking them pretty dang hard.

Raindance was a beast too, because even after Fossil Muk and Dark Vileplume came out and people built decks specifically to cut off Powers and Trainers, Blastoise was still much more reliable.

No one remembers VenuCenter :(

e: Way to FTK my post, wanyegg ;)

[ShadowCard]

Was there a deck referred to as "cleaner"? Something like it used no rares, or atleast no rare-holos.

[waynegg]

Was there a deck referred to as "cleaner"? Something like it used no rares, or atleast no rare-holos.

I've never heard of it, but I googled it and found this:

The Cleaner

4 Tangela
4 Koffing
3 Tauros
3 Growlithe
2 Arcanine

4 Bill
2 Professor Oak
4 Energy Removal
2 Energy Retreival
3 Gust of Wind
2 Plus Powers

12 Fire Energy
12 Grass Energy
3 Double Colorless Energy

It wouldn't have fared well in the tournaments.

[Jane]

Back when I played in base set I was like 6/7, but BDIF for my league was def charizard. If you owned that card you won every game hands down.

[BJJ763]

The Cleaner was created by The Impossible Man. It was improved with Oddish from Team Rocket. Very few rares, it was a budget deck, at first TIM couldn't afford rares like Chancey and then it became a matter of making a deck with Low rares in it. I don't recall Tauros being in it. Likitung was. The idea was to inflict Special Conditions (hence TR Oddish improving it) while building up an Arcanine to clean up. Ah here is TIM's finale about it http://www.ipgeek21.com/articles/reference/iman/finale_iman.html

No one mentioned Clefable/Muk.

[poinko]

Hey, I mentioned Muk...! Just a small one though, since Muk never got much play around here except as a counter to Raindance decks.

[Controversial]

Man, this thread brings back memories. I don't really have much to add, the posts in here already covered most of the format archetype-wise from what I recall, especially Waynegg's great post with the lists. I've still got all my old cards, I should throw a couple of those together for laughs =P

[Nickolas_88]

Whats VenuCenter? Is it Venusaur and Pokemon Centre? how does it work?

[poinko]

Base Set Venusaur's Power let you, as often as you like during your turn, move 1 Grass energy attached to one of your Pokemon and move it to another Pokemon. People would use this to pile all their Grass energy on an undamaged Pokemon, then use Pokemon Center to heal away the damage on everything else. The point being that if you used Pokemon Center to remove damage counters, you had to discard all energies attached to it.

It made kind of a comeback when Wild Growth Meganium came out (whose Power is pretty much the same as GE Sceptile). It wasn't as popular as Raindance because it wouldn't power up anywhere near as fast, but it made a good stall deck if you could play defensively enough.

[AzNightmare]

I had a Wiggly and a Haymaker.

They are sometimes considered the same archtype because they share majority of the same trainers and are played with the same style.
Only a slight variation of Pokemon line.

In my opinon, Wigglytuff was the stronger deck though.


Decks seem to be aggressive now adays with such low energy + high attacks.
But the oldschool decks had monster trainers like Energy Removal and Gust of Wind.

I think the oldschool decks would probably win because of those 2 cards.

[dave321]

The Escalator (I wonder if Scott still has the lifetime ban for tearing that kid's deck in half in Dallas or if it went away with Wizards of the Coast?)

WHOA, lawl, what was that about?

[ShuckleLVX]

^ I am rather curious myself!

[waynegg]

WHOA, lawl, what was that about?


It was at the STS qualifier in Dallas on Sunday. A team of players plotted to make a deck to Take Scott G. out who was running a modified Haymaker, as he already had a paid trip via his work with PoJo to the STS and they didn't think it fair for him to take an awarded trip on top of it. They were successful, but only had enough cards to make the one deck. Whenever one of the other members of the team had to face the person with the SD, they scooped to him even though the decks they were playing would have easily beaten the SD so that the SD would make it to the finals against Scott (everyone just knew Scott would make it to the finals).

So their plan worked and Scott did have to face the SD, only not in the finals but in the semi finals. He was beaten soundly and started complaining loudly that the group had cheated and when the judges said there was nothing they could do, he grabbed the deck. Back then, most people played with unsleeved decks or the following wouldn't have been possible. I don't know how many of you have seen the tearing a New York, New York phone book in half trick, but that is exactly what he did to the kid's deck and then threw it in his face. The kid just laughed at him and it paved the way for one of the other team members to win the finals next round as they didn't even have an opponent to face.

He was escorted from the premises by mall security and given a lifetime ban by WotC. This was the first tournament I ever attended and that was a real event. There were like 3000 people who showed up for it, most of which were turned away due to size restrictions. We showed up at 7:30 am with the tournament not even starting until 10. If we had been 30 minutes later we would have been turned away as well. There were people from just about every state and a few from Europe. At a mall. In Dallas. It was CRAZY!

[Volnatic]

Rain Dance was a good deck in theory, but it ran into many problems against Buzz/Chan Haymakers (due to Electabuzz's high dmg for 2 energy against them). I personally ran a deck called InSaNiTy, which was an off-shoot of a haymaker, except it ran 13 energy (a low amount at the time) and only 7 Pokemon. Initially I used Chan/Buzz, but switched out Hitmonchan for Fossil Magmar due to the high amounts of Psychic being played at the time. The strategy featured ridiculous amounts of deck manipulation and drawing in order to get out the cards you needed to get the early game donk. It wasn't unheard of to deck yourself if the game lasted more than 8 turns (until Nightly Garbage Run came out in TR. It helped tremendously) As for tournaments, I played in a local tournament every weekend. There weren't any sanctioned tournaments at the time, but many card shops held them.

Here's a sample deck list of my InSaNiTy:
Pokemon:
3 Electabuzz (Base)
4 Magmar (Fossil)

Trainers:
4 Professor Oak (I miss Oak)
4 Bill
4 Item Finder
4 Energy Removal (another card i miss terribly)
4 Super Energy Removal
4 Plus Power
4 Computer Search (this card was a godsend)
4 Gust of Wind (essential to get those donks)
4 Scoop Up
4 Energy Retrieval (until Nightly garbage run came out)

Energy:
7 Fire
6 Electric

[waynegg]

There weren't any sanctioned tournaments at the time, but many card shops held them.

Sorry you missed out, but there were definitely sanctioned tournaments.

Proof 1 (http://pokegym.net/gallery/showimage.php?i=49367)

Proof 2 (http://pokegym.net/gallery/showimage.php?i=49366&c=53)

Proof 3 (http://pokegym.net/gallery/showimage.php?i=42986&c=53)

Proof 4 (http://pokegym.net/gallery/showimage.php?i=42968&c=53)

Proof 5 (http://pokegym.net/gallery/showimage.php?i=1454&c=53)

And those came from the second year of the tournament circuit... It's a real shame too, because your deck from then looks pretty daunting!

[dave321]

Story of love, tragedy, and ripping cards in half

HAHAHA. Wow, I can't believe he actually ripped the deck in half... the room must have gone either pretty quiet or everyone broke out in like a mass suprised gasp. I would probably be mad too but my first idea would not be to tear up some random person's deck. How did that guy end up doing at the Super Trainer Showdown, the one who ended up winning from the whole ordeal?

P.S. Thankyou, your post made me look up how to tear a phonebook in half :P

[waynegg]

HAHAHA. Wow, I can't believe he actually ripped the deck in half... the room must have gone either pretty quiet or everyone broke out in like a mass suprised gasp. I would probably be mad too but my first idea would not be to tear up some random person's deck. How did that guy end up doing at the Super Trainer Showdown, the one who ended up winning from the whole ordeal?

P.S. Thankyou, your post made me look up how to tear a phonebook in half :P

We were invited, but couldn't go when I couldn't get off work to attend so I'm not sure how he did. As to the other, most people didn't even notice. There were sooo many people there that unless you were right on top of it, the comotion just blended in with the rest of the background noise. Most of those who were turned away for the actual tournament stuck around for side events and to spectate.

[Volnatic]

Sorry you missed out, but there were definitely sanctioned tournaments.

Proof 1 (http://pokegym.net/gallery/showimage.php?i=49367)

Proof 2 (http://pokegym.net/gallery/showimage.php?i=49366&c=53)

Proof 3 (http://pokegym.net/gallery/showimage.php?i=42986&c=53)

Proof 4 (http://pokegym.net/gallery/showimage.php?i=42968&c=53)

Proof 5 (http://pokegym.net/gallery/showimage.php?i=1454&c=53)

And those came from the second year of the tournament circuit... It's a real shame too, because your deck from then looks pretty daunting!

I knew about the STS, but they were started right around the end of my playing days I believe. Also, there were none near me. And yeah, my deck was a lot of fun to play. It really only ran into trouble if the game went longer than expected.

[Ninjask88]

Dude that would be intense to see a guy at worlds just tear some guys deck that had like a Flygon X, 2 Luxray X, and like 4 TSDs in it.
I thought Aerodactyl was pretty big in the format too. Or was it not because Mysterious Fossils has 10 HP? I can't remeber much but I know people were stealing cards fromour Wal-Mart like crazy so they had to put them bhind the counter with the cigarettes. I was only five when the old Base was around. I miss the gold old days of jut Base Fossil and Jungle.

[waynegg]

I knew about the STS, but they were started right around the end of my playing days I believe. Also, there were none near me. And yeah, my deck was a lot of fun to play. It really only ran into trouble if the game went longer than expected.

They were in 1999 and 2000, right after the game was introduced in America. There have been tournaments ever since. A lot of people had none near them though. We were fortunate enough to have Dallas an Houston both years that were close enough to go to. The first one wasn't highly advertised, but the word got out enough that 3000ish people showed up in Dallas from all around the world. I don't even remember how I heard about the first one. The second was advertised at League though.

[Volnatic]

I stopped playing around early 2000 I believe, so the first STS did apply to me I suppose. Just wasn't anywhere near podunk Tennessee haha.

[Lance_Wilson]

waynegg, isn't your Haymaker list missing Grass Energy to activate Scyther's Sword Dance?

I originally played from Base Set to Neo before quitting and then starting again around RR-SV, so I have lots of great memories from that era.

[Volnatic]

waynegg, isn't your Haymaker list missing Grass Energy to activate Scyther's Sword Dance?

I originally played from Base Set to Neo before quitting and then starting again around RR-SV, so I have lots of great memories from that era.

Most haymakers didn't run grass energy, and thus didn't use the swords dance attack. Scyther was something of a splash card that was useful for his free retreat, resistance to fighting (Chan's prevalence), and 3 colorless energy attack (which was great due to DCE). Most hays used him as the starter and reacted accordingly to what was needed after seeing what the opponent had up. On more than one occasion, I encountered guys running multiple scyther who would retreat them alternately for 2-4 minutes to stall out the time limit (because there were draws then, and also you could retreat the active more than once a turn).

[waynegg]

Most haymakers didn't run grass energy, and thus didn't use the swords dance attack. Scyther was something of a splash card that was useful for his free retreat, resistance to fighting (Chan's prevalence), and 3 colorless energy attack (which was great due to DCE). Most hays used him as the starter and reacted accordingly to what was needed after seeing what the opponent had up. On more than one occasion, I encountered guys running multiple scyther who would retreat them alternately for 2-4 minutes to stall out the time limit (because there were draws then, and also you could retreat the active more than once a turn).

Beat me to it, lol!

[Volnatic]

Beat me to it, lol!

Haha it's a first that I've had something valuable to add to the discussion on the current boards. I'm way behind in terms of the current game, but I do know the old days haha.

[Lance_Wilson]

Yeah I played Haymaker builds back in the day, I guess I was just odd man out by running some Grass Energy lol.

[Urza187]

Ah, now THIS is where I can help a little bit! This was in my hayday(when I was around 322 in the world). In that period of time, Haymaker(a mixture between Hitmonchan/Eleectabuzz/Magmar), Rain Dance, and Sponge, WigglyTuff and Stall(until it got caught on) were virtually your options of Tier 1 decks. Wildfire, Gengar/Magmar, Venusaur Decks I would have labeled a distant Tier 2. The decks back then were so fast with broken cards and it was really a "basic pokemon" theme to winning games.

When Neo Genesis hit, your Insanity/Sneasel decks were rampant. Thats the end of where I played. Insanity, built originally and put out in the public eye IMO by a person named lurilu utilized Trainers, eliminating your trainers, and using efficient pokemon to win. That was probably the best deck at the time.

I'll try to post decks Wednesday night(I'm busy on Tuesdays). Right now it's bedtime for this guy.