machamp jumpluff????????

[jeff hardy TNA]

possibly a good stage 2 deck machamp for sp then jumpluff for other decks

what do u think

[Napoleon]

Look at GeChamp's consistency.
Look at this, except you need more bench.

Nice idea, but...nah.

[mrdraz07]

Could work. Btw GeChamp usually has a big bench so there shouldn't be much difference...other than Hoppip starts :(

[TheGeneral]

Machamp + Pokemon A
or
Gengar + Pokemon A

They look great on paper, but don't always work out.

[Napoleon]

Machamp + Pokemon A
or
Gengar + Pokemon A

They look great on paper, but don't always work out.

This.
Now, Flygon Jumpluff? THAT'S a different story.

[Medaforcer]

This.
Now, Flygon Jumpluff? THAT'S a different story.

All your jumpluffs can have free retreat!!!!1

[Napoleon]

All your jumpluffs can have free retreat!!!!1

Oh mah god yes!!! My strategy level just got boosted by >9000!

What I actually meant was that you benefit doubly from having a tricked out bench. Increased damage for both Pokemon; Jumpluff rushes and after Flygon is built up it sweeps.
^_-

[TheGeneral]

Most speed decks do best when you don't start adding 2-1-2 lines (Kingdra/Jumpluff/Gengar/etc.)

Now if you wish to tech a 1-0-1 line of machamp + 1 fighting for SP's, that is alright, but Jumpluff already hits hard enough for SP's, All a matter of preference.

[jrwaxman]

Beating SP with Pluff is more a matter of keeping the swarm going. As long as you can get a full bench your matchup with SP should not be the issue. I would focus resources more on the Gyrados and CurseGar matchups if I were you.

[Dennis Hawk]

Oh mah god yes!!! My strategy level just got boosted by >9000!

What I actually meant was that you benefit doubly from having a tricked out bench. Increased damage for both Pokemon; Jumpluff rushes and after Flygon is built up it sweeps.
^_-

Except Flygon-Jumpluff is pretty terrible. Jumpluff is supposed to be in a fast deck, utilizing basics, low energy count etc. Flygon is supposed to be in a slow deck, utilizing evolutions, higher energy counts etc.

They are just not complimenting each other, except in that bench-filling stuff. Aren't these combos supposed to help each others in their weaknesses (Palkia G Lv.X, Dusknoir, Fast basics)? As they don't.

Jumpluff-Machamp I somehow get, as Jumpluff is propably the fastest Stage 2 which gets pwn'd by SP decks if it isn't able to OHKO them, whereas Machamp provides some needed support for Jumpluff against these decks. They still slow each other down, so I'm not completely sold to this.

[Politoed666]

Nah... they don't really complement each other well. Jumpluff generally has a favorable matchup against SPs, and it will be more difficult to go for the donk if you're running Grass Energy.

[LegendaryLugia]

You probably could try and run Jumpluff with Machamp, but why would you? You don't need an improved SP matchup - Pluff already has a generally good SP matchup. I'd rather take that + extra consistency over a loss of consistency and an unnecessary tech. You could try it if you want, but I'd recommend just sticking to ordinary LuxPluff.

[Happiny13]

Gechamp is a better metagame option. Gengar can handle Cursegar and Gyarados while Machamp takes care of luxchomp.

[uuuufff]

The idea sounds good, but here's the catch - Jumpluff simply doesn't need Machamp at all. If you're going to take up 7+ deck spots on a Machamp line + fightings, you better have a pretty good reason for it. And you don't. Jumpluff has a strong SP match and while Machamp would make it even better, the many slots it would take up would wreck your other match-ups.

Flygon/Jumpluff is similarly dumb. They have absolutely no synergy together (free retreat on a jumpluff? awesome!), they don't cover any weaknesses, or bad match-ups etc. And flygon runs into that same trap - running another line takes up a whooole lotta deck space, which Jumpluff simply doesn't have.

Jumpluff works best on its own, with a heavy claydol/trainer line and luxray gl, crobat g and poke turns. No need to clutter the deck up.

[Napoleon]

Flygon/Jumpluff is similarly dumb. They have absolutely no synergy together (free retreat on a jumpluff? awesome!), they don't cover any weaknesses, or bad match-ups etc. And flygon runs into that same trap - running another line takes up a whooole lotta deck space, which Jumpluff simply doesn't have.

Your cynicism is amazing. It displays exactly how much depth you've gone to in your analysis of the combination.

Early game, the rush of Jumpluff is (obviously) extremely useful. Late game when there are more evolved Pokemon with higher damage attacks populating the field the effectiveness of Flygon with higher HP and also a high damage attack increases.
A 4-2-4 Jumpluff, 2-1/2-2 Flygon set is trim and complementary.
One is extremely useful early game and the other can firstly tank, secondly has a useful attack in Sand Wall and thirdly has a potentially extremely powerful Power Swing.

The majority who are denigrating this deck are doing it only because both Pokemon already have freeretreat, thereby rendering Flygon's body null. While this is true it is no excuse to ignore the synergy that is apparent in the earlygame/lategame from the respective cards.

[uuuufff]

Flygon doesn't "hit harder". it's probably going to hit for around 90, for way more energy, which is worse than jumpluff.

You have a clucky extra line which is used for worse damage output, worse energy-to-damage ratio and better HP. Not worth the spots it takes up in the deck. Name one match-up where flygon actually helps.

[Napoleon]

Flygon doesn't "hit harder". it's probably going to hit for around 90, for way more energy, which is worse than jumpluff.

You have a clucky extra line which is used for worse damage output, worse energy-to-damage ratio and better HP. Not worth the spots it takes up in the deck. Name one match-up where flygon actually helps.

Certainly.
Gyarados.

[uuuufff]

Gyarados has a lot of tricks to get around Sand Wall, and once it does, Flygon becomes quite weak. Not to mention the way Jumpluff beats Gyarados is by outspeeding it, which you have less chance of doing if you are devoitng 6+ spots in your deck to a Flygon line.

[Napoleon]

Gyarados has a lot of tricks to get around Sand Wall, and once it does, Flygon becomes quite weak. Not to mention the way Jumpluff beats Gyarados is by outspeeding it, which you have less chance of doing if you are devoitng 6+ spots in your deck to a Flygon line.

5 slots.

Now, what are these tricks you speak of? You clearly speak from experience, and it would be lovely to get some knowledge thrown around here so that the majority can figure out their Gyarados matchups much more easily.

[uuuufff]

Gyarados decks utilise Warp Points, Cyclone Energy and luxray GL Lv X in them already. Once Flygon Sand Walls your BTS (assuming you haven't played one down already yourself in order to get a fast start) Gyarados can easily play right around it.

5 spots for a flygon line? aren't you going to put flygon lv x in? anyway, regardless of whether it's 5 or 6 or however many spots, Jumpluff cannot afford to lose them, otherwise it will have to drop its consistency or hinder its other match-ups in some way by dropping something else important.

[Blitzer]

uhhh, mr. mime? I don't know how many mr. mime's are out there, but machamp and jumpluff both most of the time use only one energy, which shuts them both down. If this deck did become big, people would start teching mr. mimes...

[Napoleon]

Gyarados decks utilise Warp Points, Cyclone Energy and luxray GL Lv X in them already. Once Flygon Sand Walls your BTS (assuming you haven't played one down already yourself in order to get a fast start) Gyarados can easily play right around it.

5 spots for a flygon line? aren't you going to put flygon lv x in? anyway, regardless of whether it's 5 or 6 or however many spots, Jumpluff cannot afford to lose them, otherwise it will have to drop its consistency or hinder its other match-ups in some way by dropping something else important.

Why do I need Flygon Lv X? It doesn't help me get around the main problem that is Mr Mime.
The loss of BTS is absolutely devastating to the Recovery of Gyarados. It means you can no longer chain your attackers as usual.

[Happiny13]

Jumpluff beats Luxchomp already( the super consistent build). Machamp will just slow it down against other decks.

[uuuufff]

Why do I need Flygon Lv X? It doesn't help me get around the main problem that is Mr Mime.
The loss of BTS is absolutely devastating to the Recovery of Gyarados. It means you can no longer chain your attackers as usual.

So you're putting in Flygon because it can beat mr.Mime, is that what you're saying? 3 energy on a flygon ko's a mime, but so does 3 energy on a jumpluff. there's absolutely no difference at all. it may seem like flygon does better vs. mime but it really doesn't.

Loss of BTS hurts them, but they should be running 4 so it isn't a huge issue for Gyarados. Generally, the spots Flygon is taking up in the deck hurts Jumpluff vs. Gyarados more than Sand Wall helps it.

[Napoleon]

Loss of BTS hurts them, but they should be running 4 so it isn't a huge issue for Gyarados.

You're only proving my point.
4 Sand Walls rather than 1? Thank you very much. 4 Free turns of doing whatever I want to further pimp my bench? Yes please.

[uuuufff]

You act as if Gyarados has no way around Sand Wall. After you sand wall them, there are two tricks they can do: One is to play a warp point, getting rid of Sand Wall's effect, then luxraying the flygon back up again and one-shotting it. Another is simply warping/luxraying around it, pokemon rescuing a magikarp and putting it back onto the bench, meaning you won't have to use BTS again, and knocking out a low HP support pokemon with 60 damage + belt/crobats/whatever.

so basically, yes, sand wall helps a little vs. gyarados, but it doesn't help enough to sacrifice your speed and consistency to barely help your Gyarados match-up which doesn't really need help in the first place.

and is it true that you also play flygon because it helps vs. mime? =p

[Napoleon]

You act as if Gyarados has no way around Sand Wall. After you sand wall them, there are two tricks they can do: One is to play a warp point, getting rid of Sand Wall's effect, then luxraying the flygon back up again and one-shotting it. Another is simply warping/luxraying around it, pokemon rescuing a magikarp and putting it back onto the bench, meaning you won't have to use BTS again, and knocking out a low HP support pokemon with 60 damage + belt/crobats/whatever.

so basically, yes, sand wall helps a little vs. gyarados, but it doesn't help enough to sacrifice your speed and consistency to barely help your Gyarados match-up which doesn't really need help in the first place.

and is it true that you also play flygon because it helps vs. mime? =p

Actually, I play ClaydolSPAM as my competitive deck. I'm theorymoning here.:cool:

...and when you've taken the time to KO my Flygon I turn around and Jumpluff you. Or vice versa.
While Flygon helps v Mime, it has other uses which I've already mentioned that you seem to be disregarding entirely.

Get this situation: you've been Walled 4 times. You have no more BTS. If you can somehow still get a Gyarados each turn, you're either running Rare Candy or I'm stupid enough to lay my own BTS down -_-

[uuuufff]

You would have to be insane to think Flygon helps vs. Mime. As i said before, Flygon ko's a mime for 3 energy and so does jumpluff. What's the difference?!

Ok, so flygon helps a little vs. Gyarados, which is not necessarily a match-up needs improving to the extent of taking 5 important spots out of your deck for. The deck idea is bad imo, no offense.

[cpeterik]

The bottom line is, Jumpluff needs to get that turn 2 Hoppip>Pokemon Communication>Jumpluff/Skiploom>Rare Candy/BTS>Uxie>Grass Energy>Collector>Regice in order to easily defeat decks like LuxChomp and Gyarados and Cursegar and that will be achieved LESS with a Flygon line. Simple truth.

[Napoleon]

The bottom line is, Jumpluff needs to get that turn 2 Hoppip>Pokemon Communication>Jumpluff/Skiploom>Rare Candy/BTS>Uxie>Grass Energy>Collector>Regice in order to easily defeat decks like LuxChomp and Gyarados and Cursegar and that will be achieved LESS with a Flygon line. Simple truth.

*maths here...*
*irrevocable logic here...*
*commonsense about not removing search cards here...*

Meaning that your chances are just as good.

[cpeterik]

What are you talking about?

[Rogue Archetype]

Makes no sense. Jumpluff is a beatdown. Everything on the bench should HELP THE JUMPLUFF either maintain, heal, or lose weakness.

Everything benched should be part of the 'green team.'

[Napoleon]

What are you talking about?

Clearly you take out the Luxray line and it's dependancy cards. It's not that hard to figure out that you end up with the same, if not more search cards and tech spaces.