Sablelock

[skovtrold]

Hello Gym.
Lately i've been hearing a lot about a deck called sablelock, but I don't know what it is, or how it's build. Could you possibly explain to me what it's all about ? (:

Tanks in advance.

[metagross]

Play Let Loose Giratina and force your opponent down to 4 cards. Play Cyrus's Initiative (either from hand or prefarably via Sableye's Impersonate), to hopefully strip away their only (2) Supporters. Finish it up with Chatot g, which, combined with chained Poketurns, results in your opponent having nothing in their hand that could hurt you and nothing good to draw for several turns. Throw in the fact you can do that on your Turn 1 and you have a very strong (and annoying to play against) deck.

And then there are several minor strategies for situations when you cant get the lock going (or Donk) soon enough.

[DrewDioxin]

Based around sableye,honchy g,garchomp c

Main focus is to disrupt your opponents by using cyrus' iniative and sprays and snipe with dragon rush and honchy g. Won FL states and Belgium I beiieve.

[travis3290]

why would you choose chatot G over slowking GS?

[metagross]

You can Collector and SP Radar for Chatot. You cant for Slowking.
Chatot is basic, Slowking is Stage 1.
Chatot can be turned when forced active, Slowking cant.
Chatot has a randomly useful attack, Slowking doesnt.
Chatot counts as SP for Spray, Slowking doesnt.

[Dennis Hawk]

The deck doesn't play enough search to play Stage 1 or Basic Non-SP Lv.Xs, thus no Slowking.

It's still a very fast and disruptive deck, and can basically beat anything (will have some problems with multi-Spiritomb decks) if you start with Sableye.

Basically you can either play it offensively (T1 Cyrus's Conspiracy -> Collector, Gain/Turn and Energy for Baltoy/Basic sniping/KOing with Sableye) with disruption guarenteeing your opponent won't be setting up too well or disruptively (T1 possibly Let loose, Cyrus's Initiative -> Remove supporters, spray Uxies and kill draw with Chatot G) with offensive coming in play only after you have managed to disrupt your opponent so well that there's no real fear for surprises. Or when the conditions are towards it, just donk.

6-0'd Swiss yesterday with the deck, losing to GG/Tomb/Mewtwo in Top8...

[Ch0ncey is Pr0]

Its a very hard deck to play, but very good when you have the right list. Also, good luck finding anyone willing to give out a good list. I will tell you this though.

The deck mainly relys on donking/sniping while keeping them down to nothing. The whole deck is disruption, but don't go agro when building it because you will find that it will not run. No more than 2 of chatot and giratina should be played. Take prizes as fast as you can and never let them set up. The deck banks off of cheap attacks and cheap prizes, sort of like luxchomp but with more disruption.

[DarthPika]

Ehh... just pray your opponent doesn't repeatedly start with 3+ basic or you may be in for a rough day...

[Mach]

If you have to ask...

[prodigal_fanboy]

If you have to ask...

... you don't need to know.

[metagross]

Ehh... just pray your opponent doesn't repeatedly start with 3+ basic or you may be in for a rough day...

Actually, I always smile when I see my opponent put down 3 basics against my lone Sableye. Because that means they only have 4 cards left in their hand which makes a successful Initiative much more likely. The deck isnt all about Donking you know.

[Dennis Hawk]

Actually, I always smile when I see my opponent put down 3 basics against my lone Sableye. Because that means they only have 4 cards left in their hand which makes a successful Initiative much more likely. The deck isnt all about Donking you know.

Me too, until he flips over 2 Spiritombs, Baltoy and Mewtwo MD.

But it's much more easier to fight against small hand than a large hand, as you're mostly fighting against your opponent's hand with this deck, while doing small clearances with Garchomp C Lv.X and Honchkrow on your opponent's field.

[gallade]

Purugly anyone???

[i like burdn of a day]

Purugly anyone???

i think we'll pass on that lol whats sableocks matchup like against luxchomp? cuz ive never played with or against sableock, but i would think that it just matters who gets the better start and if sableock gets luky with flips

[metagross]

Sablelock against Luxchomp is highly favourable. Basically, what can screw over Sablelock is very fast setup (Im talking T1 fast).

Lets say Sablelock starts with Sableye and whiffs on flips. Luxchomp can setup their field all they want, but the most they can achieve is a few belted/gained Luxray/Garchomps with an Energy somewhere. T2 for Sablelock means Let Loose Giratina (or two if you expect to get sprayed) followed by Initiative. Sure you can whiff on that Initiative too but then we are talking 4 tails in a row, and well, you cant do anything about that. Once you Let Loose and Initiative, your opponent cant really hurt you that much without Lv.Xs in play.

Sablelock has a problem against big Stage 1/2 decks that can setup very fast and dont need much to function (Jumpluff/Kingdra/Donphan). You can usually win those matchups if you can T1 lock or donk. It also has trouble against Gyarados when your opponent starts with Sableye too. Lastly GG spells trouble (although donkable trouble) with its Telepass on your Initiatives and bulky Pokémon in general.

[Ozymandias]

people don't realize that there is luck involved in this game. LuxChomp usually takes most of that element away. The more you rely on decks that require luck, the more your chances of losing...but at the same time, you have a better chance of winning as well. Naturally a double-edged sword will give you spectrum heavy results. LuxChomp or Gyarados will still prevail at Regionals/Nationals/Worlds.

Silvestro got very lucky at worlds 2009, even said so himself. He took advantage of benched Claydols...

[Nekizalb]

Sablelock against Luxchomp is highly favourable. Basically, what can screw over Sablelock is very fast setup (Im talking T1 fast).

I'm a little confused- are you saying that the Sablelock deck is favored to win, or the Luxchomp deck is favored to win?

With the main attackers being Honckrow G and Garchomp C, there are some problems with Weakness- Honckrow will easily be KOed by Luxray, and Garchomp faces Ambipom and opposing Garchomps.

[weavile#1]

Sablelock have a higher chance of a T1 or T2 donk, than Luxchomp.

[Ch0ncey is Pr0]

I'm a little confused- are you saying that the Sablelock deck is favored to win, or the Luxchomp deck is favored to win?

With the main attackers being Honckrow G and Garchomp C, there are some problems with Weakness- Honckrow will easily be KOed by Luxray, and Garchomp faces Ambipom and opposing Garchomps.

Although weakness is present, it is still very hard to keep attacks going against something that takes away most if not all of your resources. I recommend just playing the match and seeing it for yourself. I would say it is slightly favorable for Sablelock against most decks. Donphan can be very hard if they get a fast belted Donphan.

But as any deck has it, luck is a major factor here, just slightly more in this deck than most others. I do not expect to see this a largely played deck just because of this fact.

[Arcanine2264]

Sablock isn't that great of a deck. I've yet to lose to one. It's very iffy and it's not always consistant from what I've noticed.

[KingGengar]

My limited experience with the deck is that you don't get Sableye T1 very much. In fact, with 4 Sableye, I find myself getting that card on initial setup less than 50% of the time. I suppose you can fault me for my other Basic Pokemon, but how? If I run 3 Crobat, 2 Honchkrow, 2-2 Garchomp, a Chatot G, 2-1 Uxie, Lucario GL, 2 Unown G, Azelf LA, and a Giratina or 2, how can it be any different? That's 22-23 Pokemon, I know, but even if I cut it to 1-1 Garchomp, it doesn't change the odds much.

Now, even if I get Sableye, I find that getting one of the 8 Dark Energy I run isn't easy. Many times, I drop and Uxie for 2-3 and don't get it. Even if I drop Giratina, then Uxie, I many times don't get it. Probably the deck hates me.

In matchups, I find LuxChomp to be better than 50/50, but I'm not claiming to be expert with Sablelock. In fact, Machamp (still played) seems to eat this deck pretty well. Yes, I agree that if Sableye meets up with a lone Machop, mayhem occurs, but that exact setup rarely happens in my testing.

[waynegg]

Here's a rudimentary list. Play around with it and it becomes obvious where you need to make changes:

Pokemon: (19)
4 Sableye
3 Honchkrow G
2-2 Garchomp C
2 Uxie LA
2 Giratina (PL 9)
3 Crobat G
1 Ambipom G

T/S/S: (30)
4 Collectors
4 Cyrus’ Conspiracy
4 Cyrus’ Initiative
4 Poketurn
4 Power Spray
4 SSUs
3 Energy Gain
2 SP Radar
1 Night Maintenance

Energy: (11)
4 DCE
4 Special Dark
3 basic Dark

[Arcanine2264]

I saw someone run a 2-2-1 Skourpi lvl x and a 2-1 giritina lvl x

[skovtrold]

haha.. Well, seems like it's only the name of it I didn't know. A few weeks ago, I actually builded a sablelock deck, but I just didn't know that was what to call it :P
Anyways, thanks to any1 who explained it for me.

[KingGengar]

wayneegg: Your list seems to be missing quite a bit, including Chatot G, and some other way to get rid of Giratina start besides SSU.

[waynegg]

wayneegg: Your list seems to be missing quite a bit, including Chatot G, and some other way to get rid of Giratina start besides SSU.

Which is part of why I said RUDIMENTARY; guess you missed that part. There are a few, very few, changes that should be made to that list to make it competitive.

[prodigal_fanboy]

Here's a rudimentary list. Play around with it and it becomes obvious where you need to make changes:

Pokemon: (19)
4 Sableye
3 Honchkrow G
2-2 Garchomp C
2 Uxie LA
2 Giratina (PL 9)
3 Crobat G
1 Ambipom G

T/S/S: (30)
4 Collectors
4 Cyrus’ Conspiracy
4 Cyrus’ Initiative
4 Poketurn
4 Power Spray
4 SSUs
3 Energy Gain
2 SP Radar
1 Night Maintenance

Energy: (11)
4 DCE
4 Special Dark
3 basic Dark

I lol'd. Seventeen.

[silverst31n]

that list is so meh.
this deck is super fun to play plus its good.
i wonder just how many people will attempt this at regionals without a standard list being developed. i mean basically everyone is doing it different because those florida guys arent sharing that list and i dont blame them at all....

[ashinto]

i don't think it's going to do as well. i tested it and when people saw what was coming, it was easy to play around to some extent. i think the only reason it won was the surprise factor.

[honchvire]

How does one "play around" sableye? It sounds like you just hope they flip tails on cyrus and dont donk you.

I've been wanting to test against, but no one in my area(that I know of) has a good list. Should I even worry about this at regionals?

Is there any good counters besides lady luck and good deckbuilding?

[Happiny13]

How does one "play around" sableye? It sounds like you just hope they flip tails on cyrus and dont donk you.

I've been wanting to test against, but no one in my area(that I know of) has a good list. Should I even worry about this at regionals?

Is there any good counters besides lady luck and good deckbuilding?

You can use chatot to set up. Honestly after seeing only one played in my area makes me feel confident that I won't see it much, but their is that doubt that many people could play it.

[waynegg]

I lol'd. Seventeen.

And no one cared...

If you would have READ, you would see that I specifically said that wasn't the exact list, but you should be able to figure it out from there as you don't have to change more than 5 or 6 cards.

[metagross]

How does one "play around" sableye? It sounds like you just hope they flip tails on cyrus and dont donk you.

I've been wanting to test against, but no one in my area(that I know of) has a good list. Should I even worry about this at regionals?

Is there any good counters besides lady luck and good deckbuilding?

Sablelock thrives on the lack of starters in most decks. I would assume playing 4 Chatot MD as a starter would cripple Sablelock a lot. On the other hand if you dont start with it, you may never see it, because of all the disruption. And you cant prevent those donks.

Sablelock is about luck, thats true. But it functions in a way, that getting lucky basically wins you the game, and getting unlucky doesnt neccessarily lose it. Flipping 2 tails doesnt mean much against Luxchomp that cant do much on its first turn (cant play Lv.X). Let Loose on your next turn leaves them vulnerable to the lock again.

One card I hate to see when I play Sablelock is Cynthia's Feelings. Twice someone topdecked that against me (after Giratina and Initiative but without Chatot) and it cost me the game in one of those cases.

[prodigal_fanboy]

And no one cared...

If you would have READ, you would see that I specifically said that wasn't the exact list, but you should be able to figure it out from there as you don't have to change more than 5 or 6 cards.

Nice try, I did read. Doesn't change the fact that that list is garbage. It's off by eight at a bare minimum, and is missing some really clutch stuff.

Which is why I lol'd. Because your list is quantitatively and (from the theory behind matchups) hella off.

[Dennis Hawk]

Poasting my States list. In b4 awful, won't work, etc.

Pokémon (21):
4 Sableye SF
3 Crobat G PL
2-2 Garchomp C Lv.X SV
2 Honchkrow G PL
2 Uxie LA
2 Giratina PL (Let Loose)
1 Unown Q MD
1 Regice LA
1 Chatot G SV
1 Ambipom G SV

TSS (29):
3 Cyrus's Conspiracy
3 Pokémon Collector
2 Cyrus's Initiative
1 Team Galactic's Wager
1 Aaron's Collection

4 Poké Turn
4 Power Spray
3 Energy Gain
2 SP Radar

3 Super Scoop Up
2 Expert Belt
1 Luxury Ball

Energy (10):
4 Double Colorless
4 Special Dark
2 Basic Dark

I'm a huge fan of Unown Q here - gives you a change to shoot down their Baltoy even if you're in front with Sableye with no energy (Q to Sableye, Dark to Honchkrow, Crobat, Gain, Target attack). Of course it might cost you about 1/50 games when you start with it and nothing else and your opponent starts with Uxie.

I'm also kinda liking Regice while I'm not sure if the Best and Official Secret Lists tech it - it handles single Spiritombs well, gives you more to draw with Uxie and can be used to get your opponent in to pretty weird situations. As a one-card wonder to mess with your opponent's active, it's IMO better than Warp Point/Luxray/anything other you might want to tech in.

I hid a single Wager here, because I know a god start when I see one, and can't sometimes risk with Initiative. I don't think Wagers should be used too much, but if there i an SP deck with everything on their hand, Initiative won't just cut it and Giratinas are going to get Sprayed.

Aaron is also infinitely better than NM here. You want to retrieve your pokémon and your lonely Dark Energies to your hand ASAP, not waste Cyrus + SP Radar combo to dig them from your deck after using NM. Besides, there's seldomly - VERY seldomly - need to recover anything else than SP pokémon and Energy. Maybe Unown Q could be used sometimes, but with a single NM, I doubt you'd ever end up doing that when you need.

I found out that if I started correctly with the deck, I didn't have to use any Power Sprays at all in the entire game. I guess they're just a good insurance for if your opponent gets something going, and they're a good way to slow down the pace of the game if you find out that your opponent will be topdecking Uxie/Bebe/Roseanne/Luxury Ball from your Chatot G next turn. Could see myself trimming from the 4, though.

Double Spiritomb is something that's pretty tricky to deal with. I guess Chatot MD could be used there (with Regice, of course, as there wouldn't be double tomb without Regice, and they will otherwise Unown G their active Tomb and give themselves the initiative to actually KO something useful from your field with their main attacker), but I'm not sure why you would want to use it as an alternative starter - your goal is to minimize their hand and disrupt them, and if you see yourself using Chatot for actually drawing big, you could as well scoop the game.

[waynegg]

That's a nice list Dennis! And as everyone can see isn't that far of a stretch to get to from the meh list I threw up. If you just play it a couple of times, the changes that are needed are readily apparent. My actual list is much like yours minus the Unown Q and Regice (1-1 Honchcrow SV instead). I just didn't want to spoon feed someone else's deck idea. I felt that if they worked for it a little, it would be respectful and more gratifying. Some obviously disagreed, ol!

[silverst31n]

one thing alot of people dont seem to grasp is most of these lists just look terible on paper(obv inclining they play better then they look). i dont think there is trully anyway to look at a sablelock deck and call it great or amazing just because of it plays anmd how its built. i mean if someone told me they were going to beat me with sableye and honchcrow deck using cyrus initiative and wager id laugh at them.
then after theyve controled my hand and sniped away my set up cards leaving em defencless id be more inclined to listen/understand ya know?

[ashinto]

I'm just wondering, how does the deck do against gengar?

[metagross]

All of their starters are donkable. If they start with Gastly, you can flat out kill them with just the basic darkness. If they start with Spiritomb, you can easily kill it after it darkness graces and get a head start on prizes. If they start with Spiritomb and Baltoy, well then you are in trouble if you cant T1 the Tomb. In that case try going aggro. It usually takes the Gengar player 2-3 turns to setup which you can turn into at least 2 prizes with special darkness and a Collector. After that just play the prize exchange game, sniping stuff on the bench.

[ashinto]

the way i was thinking of it being a bad matchup is that all they have to do is drop down a Mr. Mime (which every good gengar list should be playing 2 of) and boom, there goes the matchup basically...

[Curry]

If there isn't a tomb active, the game gets even easier. Opens the field up a lot more. You can get three energy down too. Not too difficult.

[sar86]

the way i was thinking of it being a bad matchup is that all they have to do is drop down a Mr. Mime (which every good gengar list should be playing 2 of) and boom, there goes the matchup basically...

If your list is consistant enough they will have trouble even getting a Mime out. With Giratina, Cyrus Initiative & even Chatot G, you can make it very difficult to get anything out.

[KingGengar]

Dennishawk:

Good-looking list, unlike some who have put out bogus lists.

I agree with much of what you have, and Regice is a nice touch. 2 Cyrus's Initiative is about right. I think 3 at most. And I like the TGW, although I would likely opt for Looker's. And I agree with Aaron. I still don't like SSU, and I would probably run 2 with a Moonlight instead, even though there is a Q. The Expert Belts are a good way to go also, i think.

Now, if you meet up with a quick Machamp, it's all over. Especially with no Uxie X/ Lucario.

[waynegg]

This is the list I've been using to test against. It came from the original list I posted, which was originally posted by TheGeneral, I believe, in the FL Secret Deck thread.

Pokemon 22
4 Sableye
2 Honchkrow G
2-2 Garchomp C
2-1 Uxie
2 Chatot G
2 Crobat G
2 Giratina
1-1 Honchkrow
1 Ambipom G

T/S/S 27
4 Cyrus’ Conspiracy
4 Poke Turn
4 Pokemon Collectors
3 Power Spray
2 Cyrus’s Initiative
2 Energy Gain
2 Moonlight Stadium
2 SP Radar
2 Super Scoop Up
1 Luxury Ball
1 Night Maintenance

Energy 11
4 DCE
4 Special Dark
3 Basic Dark

[KingGengar]

There are definite problems. I just finished testing five games. In 3, Sableye did not start, nor did I draw into it or Giratina. I'm using similar lists to dennis and wayne. There's little difference between 18 or 19 starters. Energy count of 10 or 11 is some difference but not enough. Wayne's list w. Uxie X is a little better, I think, but still missing Lucario GL and Unown G. Honestly, Machamp just plows through it once it gets going. Sure, maybe you feel Machamp isn't being played and, if it is, it won't last out of Swiss rounds, but what if you meet up with Champ just once or twice to spoil your day? I've tried the deck with Unown G and it's not as good even though it's better against Champ. Now, vs. Luxchomp, it was pretty good, but I would say 50/50.

Your results may vary.

[poke_homie]

I hate intiative because I whiff with all the time. Play TG mars it's a +2 for you and your definately minusing them

[baby mario]

I hate intiative because I whiff with all the time. Play TG mars it's a +2 for you and your definately minusing them

Mars just takes a random card from their hand without looking though. The reason why Initiative works is that you get to see their hand and choose to discard whatever will kill their set up. That way you can screw them over and then make sure they can't topdeck their way out of trouble by dropping Chatot G.

Yeah, it does rely on luck (coin flips), but you would need a whole lot more luck to hit the right card with Mars and know how to fix their draw without seeing their hand.

[Tyran-Itar]

auto losses to a lone mewtwo lv.x sounds great I wouldn't run this at nats without a Mewtwo counter

[baby mario]

You woud have to be extremely unlucky to lose to a lone Mewtwo tech.

The opponent would have to get it out without benching anything else that can be sniped with Chomp C (Uxie, Claydol, Azelf). Plus, if Sablelock techs Krow, they can just keep KOing the same Basic over and over again.

They would have to fish out that tech Mewtwo while coping with all the disruption from Initative and Chatot G, not to mention Power Spray.

They would have to Level it up before it got KO'd.

And playing with a lone Mewtwo is a massive risk. If the Sablelock DOES run a Mewtwo counter, then it's game over.

[Tyran-Itar]

sablelock every list ive seen or played against hasnt ran one and the easiest way is usually call for mewtwo and baltoy then bebes or claydol or hope that claydol nets you a bebes for mewtwo lv.x

[LegendaryLugia]

You woud have to be extremely unlucky to lose to a lone Mewtwo tech.

lol, I've lost to a lone Mewtwo tech twice when playing Sabelock.

The fact is, on T1 they can Call for Mewtwo and something else. If they Call for double Mewtwo, that's even worse. Next turn they can Bebe's, promote Mewtwo, Level-Up and you have a Mewtwo Lv.X there for the game. You fill your bench minimally so they can't take enough snipes with Honchy and Garchomp. If they run Krow, they can of course drag back pokemon, and that's probably the best defense against a Mewtwo tech. They can also Initiative Call and Bebe's and such away T1, but they rely on coin flips. I don't really like relying on coin flips to win a game.

In short, a T2 Mewtwo Lv.X can be a problem for Sabelock, but due to the natural disruptive abilities of Sabelock (Giratina, Initiative and Chatot G being the primary tools to stop your opponent getting out a Mewtwo Lv.X) it can be overcome.

EDIT: Ross beat me to it.

[Tyran-Itar]

Ross beats you all the time whos this ross of whom you speaketh and a big thing you can do is NM those basics back to the deck so........well honchkrow aint so good dnow

[JohnnyBlaze]

I'm not discrediting this deck at all because it is nasty but I'm pretty sure the best donk deck is Shuppet donk. Shuppet plays a ton of trainers to get you out of this lock I mean 4 Drawers, 4 Pokedex, 3-4 Uxies and has a high probability that you will get Mime and Shuppet out al quick. Also good Shuppet lists also run Regice to tech against the Tomb.

Lets see how Regionals pan out.

[LegendaryLugia]

Ross beats you all the time whos this ross of whom you speaketh and a big thing you can do is NM those basics back to the deck so........well honchkrow aint so good dnow

XD

Don't I know it.

The thing is, even if Sabelock can't stop you from getting up a Mewtwo Lv.X, they can make sure that you can't get any NM in your hand via Chatot G, when it's near top Giratina, repeat.

They can easily take 6 prizes in that time via Honchy SV.

I'm not discrediting this deck at all because it is nasty but I'm pretty sure the best donk deck is Shuppet donk. Shuppet plays a ton of trainers to get you out of this lock I mean 4 Drawers, 4 Pokedex, 3-4 Uxies and has a high probability that you will get Mime and Shuppet out al quick. Also good Shuppet lists also run Regice to tech against the Tomb.

Lets see how Regionals pan out.

The point of the deck isn't really to donk (although it's one of the options). The deck is more about disrupting your opponent's hand and deck and sniping threats off with either Target Attack or Dragon Rush. While Sabelock unarguably has many more strategical options, it sacrifices the kind of consistency that makes Shuppet what it is.

JMO.