Tournament Structure for CCs?

[SteveP]

Do the CC tournament kits come with guidelines on how to run the CCs? For example:

1. Must there be playoffs? (Yes, I hope)
2. What are the minimum number of swiss rounds? (log-base-2-plus-1 I hope)
3. Without playoffs, can the CC champ be crowned using the tiebreaker? (No, I hope)
4. If playoffs, are they best-of-3? (Yes, I hope)

It's too bad that TOs don't have the option of running age-separated if attendance in each age category is high enough. The only two options given on the POP website CC FAQ are 1) age-modified and 2) straight swiss (age-combined). Last year we ran our larger CCs and our SC as age-separated. The parents and younger kids like age-separated SO MUCH more.

[AXE]

1. NO
2. As far as i know it just follows the tournemant guidlines that to's get
3. Yes, it happened to me in the cc that i won
4. Yes

[SteveP]

1. NO
2. As far as i know it just follows the tournemant guidlines that to's get
3. Yes, it happened to me in the cc that i won
4. Yes
(regarding #3). Good for you, bummer for your opponent. It happened last year at one of our CCs, I swore I'd never use the tiebreaker again to crown a champ. At our pre-releases and CCs we now have playoffs (if not already required) to break ties at the top. To me, it's just not fair to crown a city champ based on strength-of-schedule (SOS), especially in the situation that happened last year in CO. Two players were tied on points. One player had a slightly higher SOS but he actually lost head-to-head against the other player. This was a classic example where head-to-head should take precedence over SOS. So, now we just do playoffs for pre-releases and major tournaments (ie., CCs).

[mewsmom]

[QUOTE=SteveP]Do the CC tournament kits come with guidelines on how to run the CCs? For example:

1. Must there be playoffs? (Yes, I hope)
2. What are the minimum number of swiss rounds? (log-base-2-plus-1 I hope)
3. Without playoffs, can the CC champ be crowned using the tiebreaker? (No, I hope)
4. If playoffs, are they best-of-3? (Yes, I hope)


1. TO rules state that if there is a Large Prize/ Championship title, elimination rounds should be included. Sounds to be almost a choice but that would be ridiculous not to run elimination rounds.
2.The mininum rounds of swiss are determined by attendance.
3. To me the TO rules make it sound like NO, because there is a title at risk.
4.2/3 Seems to still be a choice. Many only use it for the final round to determine 1st & 2nd.

There is the option to run age separated tournies as long as attendance in each age group permits. Each age bracket must have atleast 17 players to allow the 3 tournies at once.

These are all listed in the Rules & Resources

[SteveP]

Thanks mewsmom.

I've seen a PTO separate out the 15+ and put the 10-under & 11-14 together, running 2 tournaments. I like that practice very much because no 10-under kid should ever have to play against a 15+ at a major tournament.

I remember 16 or higher in each age group being the suggestion to separate into 3 tournaments. However, that suggestion has since come under scrutiny because few areas have 16+ in every age group. Here in CO, we use 8 as the minimum instead of 16 because that's the bare minimum to sanction a tournament.

[WeileMom]

There is the option to run age separated tournies as long as attendance in each age group permits. Each age bracket must have atleast 17 players to allow the 3 tournies at once.

These are all listed in the Rules & Resources


I was told that this had changed to at least 8 players in each age group.
Anyone know?
---Nicole
WeileMom

[mewsmom]

I was told that this had changed to at least 8 players in each age group.
Anyone know?
---Nicole
WeileMom

That's not how it's stated on the current rules. Though 8 is the mininum amount you MUST have to sanction a event.

[WeileMom]

Can you point me to where it's written? I can't seem to find it, thanks!
---Nicole
WeileMom

[mewsmom]

Can you point me to where it's written? I can't seem to find it, thanks!
---Nicole
WeileMom

It's in the TO rules/ resource guide under tournement floor rules, in the pop sanctioning guide.
Only TO's have access.

[mewsmom]

Thanks mewsmom.

I've seen a PTO separate out the 15+ and put the 10-under & 11-14 together, running 2 tournaments. I like that practice very much because no 10-under kid should ever have to play against a 15+ at a major tournament.

I remember 16 or higher in each age group being the suggestion to separate into 3 tournaments. However, that suggestion has since come under scrutiny because few areas have 16+ in every age group. Here in CO, we use 8 as the minimum instead of 16 because that's the bare minimum to sanction a tournament.

Your welcome.
Yeah I know whatcha mean. Usually though the 10- will only play a 15+ when they've already beaten the 11-14 players with the same record as them. It's rare but my son has moved up to play 15+ but usually ends up playing several 11-14 instead. Sadly when he's lost to them, he missed the cut in his 10- age group but there's only so much the TO can do.

[WeileMom]

It's in the TO rules/ resource guide under tournement floor rules, in the pop sanctioning guide.
Only TO's have access.

Ah...thank you...I found it now.
However I think the document is outdated since it says that match draws are assigned 1 point and we no longer have draws.
Our PTO is the one who told me that we can separate the age groups as long as we have 8 players. I think a lot of things are changing and some of the documents still need updating on the website.
---Nicole
WeileMom

[Pokeplayer]

Steve P wrote:

Do the CC tournament kits come with guidelines on how to run the CCs? For example:

1. Must there be playoffs? (Yes, I hope)
2. What are the minimum number of swiss rounds? (log-base-2-plus-1 I hope)
3. Without playoffs, can the CC champ be crowned using the tiebreaker? (No, I hope)
4. If playoffs, are they best-of-3? (Yes, I hope)

The answers to these questions are found in POP rules, guidelines, procedures documents etc. available to the general public at http://op.pokemon-tcg.com/tournaments/rules_n_resources.asp except for the Pokémon Organized Play Swiss and Age Modified Swiss Pairing Procedures that is available in your My Pokemon account for PTOs/TOs

Answers below:

No instruction booklet is provided with the kits. PTO/TOs are to use POP rules, guidelings, etc. on the Pokemon website.......

1. Must there be playoffs?

Refer to: Pokémon Organized Play Tournament Rules

22. Tournament Structure
Pokémon Organized Play tournaments are administered using either a Single-Elimination
system or the Swiss-Pairing method. Depending on the size of the event, a tournament
may be administered as an Age-Modified Swiss event. At the discretion of the
Tournament Organizer, and at more highly competitive events, Single-Elimination
rounds may follow the completion of Swiss rounds.

Pokémon Organized Play Swiss and Age Modified Swiss Pairing Procedures

5. Single Elimination Finals
Once the recommended number of rounds has been run, a single elimination
finals bracket may be prepared and run. This is an optional component of a
tournament, but any event with a large prize, championship title, or such being
awarded should include an elimination bracket.

2. What are the minimum number of swiss rounds?

Consult the following: Pokémon Organized Play Swiss and Age Modified Swiss Pairing Procedures

2. NUMBER OF SWISS ROUNDS
Number of Players per pod: Number of Swiss Rounds Players in Elimination
3 – 4 2 2
5 – 8 3 2
9 – 11 4 2
12 – 16 4 4
17 – 22 5 4
23 – 32 5 8
33 – 45 6 8
46 – 64 6 16
65 – 90 7 16
91 – 128 7 32
129 – 181 8 32
182 – 256 8 64
257 – 362 9 64
363 – 512 9 128

3. Without playoffs, can the CC champ be crowned using the tiebreaker?

Refer to the following:

Pokémon Organized Play Swiss and Age Modified Swiss Pairing Procedures

5..........In order to resolve situations where there are more players with the same record
than can advance, a series of tiebreakers must be employed to determine which
player is more worthy of advancement.

Refer to the following: Pokémon Organized Play Tournament Rules

13. Match Outcome
Match outcomes should always be the result of game play, except in the case of
concession or penalty. Match outcomes determined by random means .....are not tolerated by POP.

13.3. Random Determination
Players may never determine the outcome of a match through a random means
(flipping a coin, rolling dice, etc).

Match winners cannot be determined by random means as explained above. Tie breakers must be used to determine which players with the same record advance into the finals.....

Using this logic and applying it to CC winners, Tournament winners should not be determined by random means. Without a cut to finals, it would suggest that Tie breakers should be used to determine the winners of a CC ...

4. If playoffs, are they best-of-3?

Pokémon Organized Play Tournament Rules

22.1. Definition of a Match

.....If best-of-three games are going to be present at any point of an event, the
Tournament Organizer should state when they will occur at the outset of the
tournament.


As for the question of independent PODs for age groups, Please refer to the following:

Pokémon Organized Play Swiss and Age Modified Swiss Pairing Procedures
SWISS PAIRINGS SYSTEM

1. BASICS
Pokémon Organized Play (POP) recommends the Swiss tournament system for
events in which each age bracket has at least seventeen players.


Having said all these...

I have run three successful City Championships using the following tournament formats

Lakewood CC Age Modified Swiss with cut to top 4/8. Finals were best 2 of 3 games with one hour time limit.
Renton CC Age Modified Swiss with cut to top 4/8. Finals were single games with a 30 minute time limit.
Kirkland CC Age modified swiss with no cut to finals. Winners determined by best records and tie breakers if needed.

Why you ask? The venue in Lakewood was open late...I could have a long tournament and it went long with swiss rounds, sudden death, and finals... The Renton venue had a longer time frame but not long enough to have best 2 of 3 finals. Hence, 30 minute single game matches were used.

As for Kirkland, the shop did not usually open on Sundays and I have a very limited time frame to run the event...The swiss tournament alone with sudden death matches ended 30 minutes prior to having to leave.

So bottom Line, The PTO/TO announces the format prior to the tournament for all players. taking into account venue, players, etc.

In my personal discussion with PUI POP, all these formats were acceptable. Granted some formats are favored more by some players than others...

My 50 cents worth...

[SteveP]

Thanks pokeplayer. I know about all the rules you quoted. I was wondering if POP wanted to standardize the CCs in the four areas I questioned. Evidently, CCs are somewhat open to how they can be run, so long as the core rules are followed.

I knew there was a chart out there explaining how big to make the Top cut based on attendance. Thanks for finding it for me.

[JohnnyBlaze]

What happens if only 6 show up for a CC? Does it still happen but it doesnt get sanctioned?

[mewsmom]

What happens if only 6 show up for a CC? Does it still happen but it doesnt get sanctioned?

Yes
It states to still play the event, it just wouldn't be sanctioned.