View Full Version : Am i the only one that feels a bit dissapointed?
09/20/2003, 07:26 PM
Am i the only one that feels disappointed that some of the trademark rules/ideas of PokéTCG are being broken?
Im pretty sure of the following and my opinion on them will follow.
1 retreat per turn.
That seems to hurt the spirit of the game a lot. it invokes strategy. its like telling a sprinter to not wear his Nike's.
Babies lose their flipiness.
come on, almost every attack worth using can nuke a baby in one hit. yeah they heal when u evolve but will they last? even so, not flipping to strike a baby seems kinda unflavorful.
The energy is put in straight rows.
This bugs me imensly. at a glance with the old system you can know what to pay. in rows u gotta count past 4...plus it pushes the text away. so if u have a 2 energy attack and a 5 energy, the text is all off alignment. it looks...rookie-ish.
The big one: 130+ hp.
It seems like 120 is big enough. anything higher than that seems excessive, granted you can get well over double 120 in the video game, it just seemed like 120 was good enuf in the TCG. i saw a 160 i think. 120 was a good cap. it kept a sensible limit to power. other wise ur guy would be soooo strong that if you lost your ringer, your other guys collectively coulndt take it down. Thats why i didnt like DigiTCG and thats what bugs me about YGO, if a heavy hitter gets on board and u only have mediocre guys out, you're done. its over. theres no getting back.
09/20/2003, 08:09 PM
Ok, here's the counterpoints to those arguements:
They are trying to make the card game more like the Gameboy game. If you retreat in the Gameboy, you lose your turn, so be glad its not that severe.
They are trying to bring back more of the original intent of babies: to be evolved. Who evolved a baby beforehand? Now there is no disadvantage to evolving (such as losing the tails-fails effect, and you heal.
I dunno about this one. I like the way the old sets did it, too, but you gotta change sometimes.
To offset this, they added a double weakness to any Pokémon with more than 120 HP, and the EX rule (your opponent gets 2 prizes). Seems pretty fair to me.
So, there are reasons for the things they have changed.
09/20/2003, 08:16 PM
I'll try to format my replies to each of the things you brought up.
1. Retreating. I actually like this change. I don't see how invoking strategy could be a bad thing. It helps prevent the old retreat to cure special condition/retreat back right away. I also think it reflects the Game Boy games, which is what the card game is based off of, much better. :rolleyes:
2. Baby flips. I'm very happy that they're throwing out that mechanic. I've seen too many games that come down to mere coin flips. Cards like babies and Focus Band need to go. These cards really take out the strategy and out everything to coin flips. In pokemon it really is better to be lucky than skilled. Dropping the baby flips will help combat this reliance on luck. :thumb:
3. Energy Symbols. Another way the game helps teach precious math and reading skills. :p
4. Big HP. I think we need to see some more tournaments before this can be settled. Some of the EX's do have big HP, but they have that 2 prize draw back. We'll just have to see how that plays out in future tournaments. :)
League Leader Terry
09/20/2003, 09:40 PM
1. Retreating. Since when is adding strategy to a game a BAD thing? :)
2. Baby flips. Anything that has the potential to stall the game as much as Babies do is a bad thing. So many decks broke down to hiding behind a Baby while powering up a heavy hitter. An unlucky player would be completely messed over by a deck running Cleffas and Tyrogue.
3. Energy symbols. Eh, I've got no problem with them. Looks different, but I actually like the new layout.
4. Big HP. Wailord Ex's 200 HP is really pushing it, but it can be dealt with. And when you do finally take it down, you'll get 2 prizes. All of the Ex Pokemon have that drawback and the ones with more than 120 HP have 2 weaknesses, so it's even easier to hit it hard when needed.
09/20/2003, 09:50 PM
1.Person going first not drawing.
This is really terrible. Lets say you draw one weak basic, and all energy. Your screwed. You should ALWAYS be able to draw IMO. Nothing should change that.
2.Confusion does 30, you can retreat without flip.
IMO, this really weakens confusion. Making the opponent flip for retreat was the one thing that made Confusion really sadistic.
3.New Metal and Darkness energy rules
This is fair. I hated to play against Metal Chansey while I played Unlimited.
09/20/2003, 10:15 PM
Retreating: More/different strategy = extended life span. If things stay the same, things get stagnant.
Babies: You have GOT to be kidding me. I learned the hard way at GenCon why the coin flip Baby rule is the most broken thing in the existance of the game.
Energy: Guh? It's a design specification. Totally preferential.
Big HP: Justified; ex-Pokémon are in essence two Pokémon in one. Two prizes drawn, and twice the HP. Knocking out one 140 HP ex-Pokémon is like knocking out two 70 HP Pokémon. Now when the HP goes past 240 HP, THEN that's when I'll complain. :)
First Not Drawing: That's strategy. In a tournament, you can choose to go second and draw a card (and get screwed for a first-turn knock out), or go first, not draw a card, and put yourself in a very good position.
Confusion: The deal here though is since you can only retreat once per turn, you can either risk hurting yourself by attacking, or not attack and save your Pokémon. Either way, Confusion WILL affect whether or not you attack.
So Metal Chansey gets the boot. That's the way the game works. I mean I still want to play Wigglytuff, but it ain't gonna happen...
09/21/2003, 11:01 AM
1 Retreat Per Turn: Meh. It doesn't hurt the game too much. Now, if they put in a rule that if you retreated, you couldn't attack that turn (to make it "like the Gameboy games"), then we'd have a problem.
Babies: It's a case of being too strong with the Baby Rule, and too weak without it. There really isn't a middle ground, unless you want, say, Tyrogue to have an attack that does 30 damage without having to flip a coin. That'd "balance" it, but then we'd just get more complaints.
Energy Layout: Meh. To me, it's like the layouts you can use in M:TG. Some people like putting their lands in front of their creatures, some behind them. A stiff rule it ain't, because it's too hard to enforce.
Large HP: Well, for some Pokémon, it's understandable. For some, it's just plain stupid. Really, it's just a case-by-case thing. Even so, only things like Wailord or Blissey or whatnot should have more than 150, and 200 is just a plain tank (plus, it's pretty much immune to being OHKO'd from no damage, which if anything is good).
Not Drawing First: Pokémon was the ONLY TCG that I've played that allowed the player going first to draw. Besides, if you only draw one weak Basic and the rest Energy (without even a Trainer or two), your deck deserves what it gets ("whoops, a Magikarp and all energy, I guess I'll need to draw first to save my deck... oh dang, a [useless trainer/energy/non-Gyarados stage 1/2]"). Yes, this is harsh, but it puts more emphasis on strategy than topdecking something to save you from a bad hand.
Confusion: Flipping for the retreat was what made it so potent. Just use something that confuses unconditionally (even if it was Gloom or something), then proceed to have your way with them. Now, it's been just plain nerfed.
Metal/Darkness: Not using either, I really don't care.
09/21/2003, 11:25 AM
My opinion on the matter:
Single Retreats: Good thing. You wouldn't believe how many decks, especially in Unlimited, would abuse multiple retreats, such as to heal Special Conditions and still attack with the same Pokemon.
Babies: Bad thing. Tyrogue and Pichu were broken, mainly because of their attacks, but the others were fine. Did anyone complain about Fossil Haunter? How about AQ Jumpluff? Well, guess what. Babies do the same thing, and have less HP. They're a risk. And I, for one, love having a mixture of strategy and luck.
Energy layout: Doesn't matter to me.
130+ HP: Not sure, but I'm leaning towards bad thing. Once these guys are out, they'll be there a while... maybe too long. Of course, it IS possible for even some of these to be OHKO'd, but it's a lot more difficult. However, many of them have attacks with a fair chance of being OHKOs.
No draw first turn: Mixed opinion. It does give the first player one advantage he didn't have before -- 1 more turn before he/she stalls out. But Stall strategies are pretty much dead. And it does give player 2 a one-card advantage on turn 1.
New Confusion rules: Good thing. Being able to retreat to shake Confusion sans flip helps avoid wasted Energy. And making it 3 damage counters makes it harder to abuse. How many people countered Confusion decks with Aerodactyl/Gligar? Bad news for you -- that don't work no more!
New Metal/Darkness Energy text: Good and bad. I remember once when my opponent switched a Darkness Energy onto my Tyrogue, and I had no way to remove it. I had to sit there and watch it die. Metal, however, I liked as it was. I'd have liked it better if I'd gotten the chance to try an Arithmetic deck before the reprint, but whatever. Still, since you can't abuse Metal Energy like you could, it does bring a little more strategy back into the game. And adding strategy is always good, unless it becomes so strategic you can't strategize.
Here are my opinions about this story:
Retreating- its just like in the Game Boy game. Nintendo's strategy is trying to get GB players to play the TCG. Therefore, Nintendo revamped the rules to be similar to the GB game.
Babies- Another good thing. This is also gonna be like in the GB game. You don't see "It doesn't affect (name)..." whenever you attack a baby pokemon in the GB game.
Energy Layout- This is just like in the Japanese cards. Since Nintendo is a Japanese company, it would only make sense to use the same energy layout in America as they do in Japan.
Pokemon-ex HP- Nothing wrong with it. Wailord has 200 HP (the new max), but he has 2 weaknesses and a FIVE energy retreat cost. Now it's not so broken after all.
Confusion I don't see whats wrong with it. This is also like the GB game. You can retreat a confused pokemon in the GB game without it saying "It hurt itself due to confusion...*WHACK*." Even though Psychic Pokemon might be at a certain disadvantage this time around, it doesn't make them completely useless.
09/21/2003, 12:23 PM
1 retreat per turn.
After my first tourney with this rule, I wish this had been there since the beginning
Babies lose their flipiness.
Look at it this way: There are no new baby pokémon. You can now evolve some basics into other basics.
And anyway, I don't think many good players think babies are/were good for the game.
The big one: 130+ hp.
09/21/2003, 12:57 PM
Mega HP: Hadn't heard about this one. Sandstorm? Sounds a bit iffy to me, you'd need to be hitting for a tonne a turn and not every deck is set up to do that. But, I guess I'll wait and see.
New Energy Layout: Like the majority, it would seem, I'm not too bothered by it. I'm not having any problemds distinguishing between four and five at a glance.
What does bug me, however, is the new card layout. That block of dots down the left-hand side, in particular, looks very lazy. The card background looks like something the intern thought looked cool, but to me, it cheapens it a bit.
This is, what, the fourth new look this game has recieved? That's a bit many for a game less than five years old, and that's not counting the Japanese sets, and they had their own look, too.
I'm also disappointed by the complete lack of flavour on cards. Not just flavour text, but other bits of game-blind info, like Pokemon number, level and subtitle. All that's left of the Pokemon itself is the picture.
09/23/2003, 04:53 PM
what i meant by invoking strategy was that multi retreat is part of strategies.
I also was very disappointed with the half job they did on the background. they are losing flavor and the colors arent beign represented very well. i dont like that dot thing.
My predicition is that it will become a race to get that 1,386,057,329 HP Poké out first. then they just smack around the one threat u have out and u cant get back ontop of the game so you just watch your precious pokés take it one by one. they wont stay out long enuf to evolve. Like YGO if the biggies get out early its almost certainly over for the other guy. But thats with YGO and MTG cards that can destroy creatures. In PokéTCG there are no destroy target poké cards are there? so that makes it even harder to get back on top.
Good point with the retreating thing though. I guess it might work.
But i still hate the energy display. its inefficient. And the double weakness/resistance is strangely making sense but i have a natural resistance to the change of something that has always been around...well there you go.
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