Smeargle VS Sableye in Gyarados

[King of Japan]

What should the numbers for this be? 4 sableye 0 smeargle?
4 sableye 1 smeargle? 4 smeargle 0 sableye? what do you think the best number of sableye and/or smeargle is for gyarados?

[Mama_Luigi]

I play mine 4 sableye 2 smeargle, but 3/3 would probably be fine too

[Raen]

I actually only play 3 Sableye and 1 Smeargle. It really comes down to testing and preference.

[Blitzer]

Four sableye, 0 smeargle. Smeargle can be risky.

[Spidy]

you pretty much need that collector as early as possible

so i say 4 sableye, no smeargle

cause smeargle might not get that collector,an could get something like judge that could really hurt you

[BrightRush]

After testing bunch of lines of smeargle and sableye, I just find 4 sableye to be the fastest and most consistent. Smeargle is a great card and the oppurtunity of having that "perfect set up" is ideal but sableye works so much better and gets you that solid set up you need for Gyarados. Another thing is Smeargle doesnt always get you the collector you need and this usually hurts your consistency and set up.

[yoyofsho16]

Sableye works every time.
Smeargle doesn't work every time, but when it does is more effective. If you are running 4 Sableye already, 1 Smeargle doesn't really hurt you at all.

[Physics Squirrel]

I have a different question. Surely I'm missing something, but why do you even need Sableye in Gyarados against anything other than trainerlock? Don't you set up fine without it?

[Spidy]

I have a different question. Surely I'm missing something, but why do you even need Sableye in Gyarados against anything other than trainerlock? Don't you set up fine without it?

as i said in my last post, gyarados needs to use collector as soon as possible, preferably first turn

the chance of getting collector in your first 8 cards if you run 4 is still less than 50%

running sabeleye pretty much guarantees you can get that collector of on t1

[Physics Squirrel]

as i said in my last post, gyarados needs to use collector as soon as possible, preferably first turn

the chance of getting collector in your first 8 cards if you run 4 is still less than 50%

running sabeleye pretty much guarantees you can get that collector of on t1
Yes, but like I said, that figure is only accurate if you can't do anything turn 1, ie versus Trainerlock.
When you can play trainers, you have the ability to draw a ton of cards before you have to worry about not seeing a Collector.
Maybe my list is just drastically different. I'm not exactly a pro Gyarados player, but I find the odds of starting with either Collector, Uxie, or some way to get Uxie are not that bad, and a turn 1 Set Up for 4-6 cards can often draw into the Collector if you didn't start with it to begin with.

[King of Japan]

I have a different question. Surely I'm missing something, but why do you even need Sableye in Gyarados against anything other than trainerlock? Don't you set up fine without it?

Gyarados runs either sableye or smeargle because they need the early collector. simply running four copies is not enough. For a gyarados list to even be remotely competitive if you arent running sableye or smeargle your doing it wrong.

[DonphanAtoZ]

i think 4 smeargle 0 sableye is best because it helps T1 dos

[Politoed666]

As was stated above, you need that T1 Collector. Sableye is the best start... most good builds should be running four. Smeargle increases your chances of the T1 Collector even more, but not a ton. The thing with Smeargle is, though, you can grab the opponent's Supporter T1, search an Unown Q, and retreat into a Sableye for another Supporter.

4x Sableye and 2x Smeargle is the best build IMO.

[flash2351]

I say 3/3 is the best. Smeargle is great for mirror, allowing u go to second, hence able to use 2 supporters, or even 3 if you could retreat into sableye. Or you could even potrait collector for ur karps and regice, discard the karps and lookers/judge ur opponent to destroy their set up.

[DIZZtheWHIZZ]

4 Sableye, 0 Smeargle.

/thread

[nnaann]

Smeargle is so underated, it's amazing. I would play at least one of this card in any deck. After each Gyarados is KO'd, or you Warp Energy to the bench to Seeker, why not send Smeargle out each time and keep copying their supporters?

[Deoxys Cool Form]

I'd always play 4 Sableye.

Then 0-1 Smeargle, depending on if I have any space in the deck or not.

[Physics Squirrel]

Smeargle is so underated, it's amazing. I would play at least one of this card in any deck. After each Gyarados is KO'd, or you Warp Energy to the bench to Seeker, why not send Smeargle out each time and keep copying their supporters?

I thought this would be good, but then my first Gyarados kept winning the game without ever getting KO'd. Lame ;p

[thunderjolt]

yeah, I don't play sableye or smeargle and I can usually get set up turn 1 or 2 depending on whether I get a BTS or not. But under trainer lock....well that's a different story.

So I can see it both ways, just depends on your area meta. For me, I like the occasional T1 90 with a gyrados.
I once had two magikarps and a regiice in the prizes, and, with my list, I got gyrados out turn one with two heads on three SSUs for Azelf. No sableye or smeargle. Just a heavy trainer line, I just take the probable loss to trainer lock cuz I don't have dialga X(I traded it away...sad).

[the cheating bidoof]

3 sableye 2 smeargle

[kwisdumb]

I'm always 100% certain that 4 Sableye and 1 Smeargle is the best option. Sableye is undoubtedly your better starter, but Smeargle isn't a terrible starter either, nor is it a bad card to have in general. 4 Sableye 0 Smeargle seems strictly worse, and 4 Sableye 2 Smeargle seems like too many Smeargle. Anything less than 4 Sableye is incorrect, imo.

[cmak37]

I like Sableye, but I don't like the fact that when you Impersonate for 3 Karps/whatever my opponent can just Judge/Looker's them away. Also, sometimes I'd much rather go 2nd. I know that you don't always hit what you want with Smeargle, but when you do (it's not hard at all to hit a useful supporter IMO) it's so much better than having to wait a turn with Sableye.

You should definitely still run Sableye, but I almost prefer a higher Smeargle count than Sableye count. That's just my opinion.

[luxray master2]

well ive always prefered sableye(i havent played g does but ive played sablock and chenlock)because like a few other people have said its to risky

[FLCLFANMAN]

I dont see the point of running smeargle over Sableye. Even teching i seems like a waste since its random/situational. I'd rather sub in a (LA) Ditto for the Mirror.

[Raen]

I dont see the point of running smeargle over Sableye. Even teching i seems like a waste since its random/situational. I'd rather sub in a (LA) Ditto for the Mirror.
Really? Smeargle can be a game changer, and quite often in fact, especially in the mirror. Take this for example: I was playing a top 4 match against mirror. At this point, I didn't play Smeargle, but my opponent did. I had an amazing set up, he didn't. However, he did get his Smeargle out. Using Portrait, he proceeds to use my Twins and save his set up. The next game we play goes essentially the exact same way. He used his own Twins after using mine at one point, as well, and I lost those games due to that.

To sum up, I think ALL Gyarados lists should run at least one Smeargle. Smeargle is useful in ALL matchups, whereas something like Ditto isn't.

[Physics Squirrel]

Really? Smeargle can be a game changer, and quite often in fact, especially in the mirror. Take this for example: I was playing a top 4 match against mirror. At this point, I didn't play Smeargle, but my opponent did. I had an amazing set up, he didn't. However, he did get his Smeargle out. Using Portrait, he proceeds to use my Twins and save his set up. The next game we play goes essentially the exact same way. He used his own Twins after using mine at one point, as well, and I lost those games due to that.

To sum up, I think ALL Gyarados lists should run at least one Smeargle. Smeargle is useful in ALL matchups, whereas something like Ditto isn't.
Sorry to say it, but that's your fault.
When you get an early lead, you discard Twins like the plague. What you did instead was you let your opponent set up.

Smeargle, especially when your opponent can discard whatever two cards they want every turn, can be played around, which makes it much weaker than Sableye. Yes, you could get Judged, but things just as bad or worse can happen if you start Smeargle, including what often happens which is that your opponent doesn't start with a Collector, and when they draw one, they use it immediately and deny you the Portrait.

Sableye's pros definitely outweigh the cons. It's harder to say the same for Smeargle.

EDIT:
That doesn't mean I'm against playing a Smeargle or two in Gyarados. What I'm saying is that Sableye is uncontestedly the better starter for the deck, whether you whip out a mid-game Smeargle or not.

[FLCLFANMAN]

Smeargle is too situational for my tastes. If both players start with jank then you're boned. Sableye guarantees you a T1 supporter and set up.

I'm just getting back into the game, but Sableye+ Junk Arm spells HUGE trouble for your opp. come T2, especially if you surprise them by dropping the ditto in the Mirror.