The growing gap between Unlimited and Modified requires another Format

[Prof. Douglas Zuver]

Suggested Constructed Format:

"Broken Banned" Format
(Sneasel's Box)

All Pokemon Trading Game Cards are allowed
except the following cards:

Pokemon

Ancient Mew
______'s Pikachu.....Promo #24 (Birthday Pikachu)
Blastoise.....Base
Brock's Ninetales
Chansey.....Base
Clefable.....Jungle
Ditto..........Fossil
Feraligatr....Neo #5 (Riptide)
Slowking.....Neo
Sneasel......Neo
Team Rocket's Meowth.....Promo #18
Wigglytuff...Jungle

Trainers

Energy Removal
Super Energy Removal
Gust of Wind

[Prof. Douglas Zuver]

Furret prances in...
Furret looks at the list of Pokemon
Furret sulks
Furrets storms out

Later...

Espeon "What's the matter, Furret?"
Furret "I didn't make the banned list....grrr..."
Espeon "You did go to the big events this year."
Furret "Sigh, I guess so..."

[bullados]

Aren't we forgetting about little things such as Oak, Comp Search, Item Finder, and other such overused cards? I'm also surprised that you didn't include all the Haymaker cards (Zappy, Buzz, Chan, etc), considering that you basically got rid of all of the kool and fun cards in the format, let's get rid of the rest!!! lol

[Baboon]

Are you suggesting a "somewhat" Modified middle? If so, I would restrict more than just those cards, especially adding Trainers to that list, because Trainers are mainly what make Unlimited the format it is, not the Pokemon, so much.

It would be a cool idea, but I just don't see this ever becoming useful, since without the powerful Trainers banned, it's the same thing, but just superficially different.

[dkates]

Chansey? That is not broken, IMO, although hearing your reasoning could change my mind. The same goes for Team Rocket's Meowth -- that's only broken in Team Play. Rocket's Zapdos, however, does need to go.

[ShadowOfTyranitar]

Unlimited should NEVER have any cards banned.

[Dro~]

My suggestion is only to allow at most 2 copies of each cards from the base to neo sets. Therefore only 2 oaks, 2 computer searches, etc. In addition, almost 50% of the deck (not including energy, doesn't have to be exact) must contain cards from E-on.

[cattdreams]

I think we should worry more about what is going to be the officially announced modified before we really worry about a middle format.

that said, I think an in between format would be something like a certain block on, with special restrictions on "Broken cards"

[Broken Lizard]

Here is what I have to say about this issue:

http://www.pokegym.net/showthread.php?t=364

I strongly agree that a third constructed format would be an excellent idea.

[meganium45]

The only card I would disagree with on this list would be the Chansey.

Under Nintendo Rules, without Metal Chansey, Chansey will not be the force it once was.

I would also disagree with banning energy removal. Super yes, regular no. You need to have some cards that add to the energy removal strategy that is prevelant amongst some unlimited decks.

Banning Gust of Wind would also be a mistake. It is one of the power cards that is not overpowered, and keeps people from playing cards that are only bench sitters on their bench with no fear of them being called out to play, and abusing their power sitting on the bench. Double gust answers this to a small extent, but requires all decks use legendary dogs to impliment this strategy. Gust of Wind requires no combination cards.

You want to take out a card to make the game balanced, take out Lass. Lass, along with Super Energy Removal, are two of the most destructive trainers in the game. Get rid of lass instead of Energy Removal or Gust of Wind.

Banning Team Rocket's Meowth is pointless. No metal energy to help it, and it gets taken on a first turn hit. Leave it in as an option. It is not that broken of a card in any format except team, which is not coming back around.

I would not have certain cards restricted. It would make tourneys too hard to judge.

Would this format be titled "Restricted" or some other title, that shows it is not the main format, but would be a good alternative that would keep the game fresh, and allow older players to use many of their existing cards, while we ease them into modified.

My opinion.

Meganium45 (what a big box that will be!)

[dkates]

Otaku made an interesting suggestion in another thread -- block formats. These are formats like Base to Rocket only, Gym only, Neo only, and E-block only. I think these would make for interesting games, since so many tried-and-true combos would be broken because the cards are from different blocks.

[Perfect0ne]

I call for removing a new format of 'EXTENDED' as in MTG, where its like modified, only the last 8 (not 4) sets are allowed!

[Perfect0ne]

Ooops :( double-post :p

[UncleBob]

How about a no-Trainers format? That'd be interesting.. :)

[dkates]

No Trainers? Ouch! That would be a slow format. That one I'd suggest play-testing first.

[Baboon]

No Trainers?!?!? lol...
Yeah, you've got Cleffa and Promo Cleffa. What after them? @_@
You'd have like 30 Pokemon and 30 Energy. Talk about your hand filling up... Yeah, no Trainers would only be like a joke format in my opinion... Lol, you'd also have to break the 4 of each card rule if you were to do no Trainers... If you'd ever run it in a tournament, the rounds would be like an hour long... XD

Interesting would be the word. lol

[Mob2099]

thats right just make the formats type 1(unlimited),1.5(new format), and type 2(modified) as in magic. magic has block formats and many other casual play formats( singleton, prismatic, tribal). in magic the qualifiers are 1.5 format and the finals are type 2. makes for different ideas and uses of old cards while people are playing the new cards also. i know i keep saying magic, but im just using a known, great game that has been around awhile and still going for a model to try and give good change to a great game(ie pokemon). i for one im against ban cards if there is a counter for it in the format, and it isnt good to limit cards either, it should be all or nothing.

thats my 2 cents.

[dkates]

The only thing, Mob2099, is what happens when a card gains a status where almost every deck either uses it or counters it, or both. Most of the cards on the list in the top post have that status in Unlimited. That is why I've started becoming bored with Unlimited.

[GuardianTIM]

No-trainers? Just recently we did a Ruby/Sapphire Booster Draft. That pretty much was No Trainers. Talk about a silly game. If it wasn't for the Ralts' that I got, I would have probably fallen asleep. Also, in my opinion, Skyridge was definitely the best set for trainer cards (that I've seen- Sandstorm isn't out here yet).

Personally, I agree with the list of banned cards, with a few exceptions...
Is Base Chansey the one with 90/100hp, and Does DoubleEdge for 80:60? If that is the one I'm thinking of, I can understand why with the old rules Metal chansey might be somewhat Broken, but with the new rules, it's as valid as anything else...
Fossil Ditto is the one with Transform, right? No problems there... After all, that's pretty much what Ditto should be.
Gust of Wind, I think we should keep, even with the new rulings. After all, the RuSa Swellow has a pokemon power which pretty much acts like the Gust Of Wind, except your opponent chooses (I think). but if you really have a problem with it, there is a RuSa card where you have to flip for it, but if you get heads it's pretty much a GustOfWind.

The regular Energy Removal is just a silly card to begin with. I wouldn't mind if the Energy Removal type cards were Supporters, but they are so bad, especially as they can target any type of energy, not just basic. I hate it when my Scizor (aq) gets stripped of the 4 metal energy, and the 4 rainbow energy all because they had a hand full of Energy Removal type cards. (You'll know what I mean if you look at it's second attack. Being able to do 190 damage if I have it fully charged, and get all heads is absolutely brilliant. Of course, the odds of getting it set up like that are astronomically low.)

[dkates]

Chansey is the one from Base: 120 HP, 1 Retreat, Scrunch for (C)(C) and a flip to prevent attack damage to Chansey, and Double Edge for (C)(C)(C)(C), 80 damage, and 80 damage to Chansey. In combination with certain cards (Unown N and Gold Berry, mainly), it's a real beast -- I should know, I've played with and against it.

Now, as far as the other cards on the list, let's look at them, and here are my opinions.
Ancient Mew: Banned from real Unlimited because it's never been printed in English. Therefore, banned from this format is only fitting. ____'s Pikachu: Also known as Birthday Pikachu. Banned from real Unlimited, because of the condition of its attack (although WotC never said so), so it should be banned here. Blastoise: The basis of the Rain Dance deck, one of the first archetypes. Mostly rogue, now, but extremely powerful. Brock's Ninetails: More confusing than broken, IMO. It has the second-highest number of rulings in the old Compendium, next to Ditto. Chansey: This and my other post have given the facts and my opinions on this one. Clefable: POWERFUL! Why? One word -- Metronome. The most powerful, undercosted attack ever. Worse than Sneasel. Ban it, even though I like it. Ditto: Again, confusing, more than broken. Powerful, though. The jury's still out on this one. Feraligatr: WHAT? This guy was a beast in Neon Modified, sure, but not in Unlimited. He does have a very high potential power, but most good cards do, played right. Slowking: I would not be sorry to see him go. One-sided, MEGA-overpowered Trainer denial. Sneasel: He and Slowking were the first, and so far only, cards to be banned from Modified before their sets. Sneasel almost single-handedly made speed not just the preference, but the necessity in Unlimited. Ban it. Team Rocket's Meowth: HUH? If this were about TMP, I'd understand, but there are far better cards for first-turn KOs that are not on this list. Keeper. Wigglytuff: A popular partner for Sneasel. Powerful, thanks to DCE and Boost Energy, but since it tops out at 60 damage, I say keeper. Energy Removal: Remove one of your opponent's Energy cards, no drawback, no questions asked. More powerful than you'd think. Consider a ban. Super Energy Removal: Removes two of your opponent's Energy at the cost of one of your own. Powerful, with a small amount of strategy. Consider a ban, lean heavily toward it. Gust of Wind: Keeps people on their toes. No Pokemon is safe on the bench. I like its unpredictability, and it is NOT broken, IMO. Keep it.

[Tego]

Chansey is the one from Base: 120 HP, 1 Retreat, Scrunch for (C)(C) and a flip to prevent attack damage to Chansey, and Double Edge for (C)(C)(C)(C), 80 damage, and 80 damage to Chansey. In combination with certain cards (Unown N and Gold Berry, mainly), it's a real beast -- I should know, I've played with and against it.
Gust of Wind: Keeps people on their toes. No Pokemon is safe on the bench. I like its unpredictability, and it is NOT broken, IMO. Keep it.[/list]

Chansey is not broken anymore with the new Metal Energy ruling. It was a beast with Metal Energy's sick effect, but now it isn't broken in Unlimited anymore.

Gust of Wind on the other hand, IS broken. Look at the card, it's crazy. Not a single drawback. There is a reason why cards like Double Gust exist. Heck, even Double Gust turned out to become broken after all.

[Dro~]

IMO, some of the cards should be remade to supporters, such as gust of wind, energy removal, etc. They're still powerful but being suporters balance it.

[ShadowCacnea]

ouch. I'd be playing abput 20 supporters if they remade ER and Gust as Supporters.

[dkates]

Supporters? That'd defeat the purpose! SER might be suitable as a Supporter, but ER and Gust? No. Well, there's always ER2, which is more effective than you'd think, even if it's not quite ER.

[Kyfogre22]

Gust of Wind on the other hand, IS broken. Look at the card, it's crazy. Not a single drawback. There is a reason why cards like Double Gust exist. Heck, even Double Gust turned out to become broken after all.

*slaps from an impossible distance* Gust, broken? removing gust of wind from play would reinforce the belief that your bench is invincible; without gust, IMO, this format is a dud. If you can justify a valid reason to ban it (besides the "read the darn card!" things), ill agree with you, but there is no real reason to ban it.

[bullados]

The bench is supposed to be a safe area for building your Pokemon. GOW, and to a lesser extent, Double Gust both destroy this sanctuary of building. I do admit that Double Gust is not all that broken, with the drawback and all, but I just don't like the idea of anything and everything being a potential target for my opponent's attacks, especially without my knowledge. I know about Feint Attack and those bench hitters, but those are enemies that are known before they are used, via the bench or powering up. GOW and DG are both unknown bench hitters, in that my opponent doesn't know if or when I'm going to play them, where as the bench hitters have a definite warning signal that says, "I'm going off now, be prepared".

[dkates]

Thing is, one of the facets of good gameplay in a TCG is to not reveal your strategy any earlier than you must. And most of these bench hitters are either weak or evolved. Consider that a Stage 1 evolution line takes at least 4 slots, and usually more like 5-8. Besides, I disagree that the bench should be a safe place to build up Pokemon. Once a Pokemon is in play, a player should need to be prepared to defend it or use it, IMO. If GoW were banned, though, it wouldn't be the end of the world -- free Retreaters are already popular, and Double Gust + free Retreater = GoW.

[Perfect0ne]

Anyone afraid of GoW has a fear of their own speed capabilities. They think they wont be able to pull off the fast Gust and Kill before their opponent and therefore, are afraid of strategy and change. Gust is simply a sniper attack, yet it seems nintendo will merely leave us with no draw and no Gusting with EXon... truly a sad format compared to the past... I see their arguments for it, but we dont even have good babies or mass heal for bleeps sake!

[dkates]

Please stay on topic, PerfectOne. That comment about Exon could easily pull us off-topic. However, you do make a good point about Gust. It's not as hard as some would think to make sure you can deal with a Guster. Forgive me if I'm repeating myself, but I like GoW because it adds an element of surprise and uncertainty to the game.

[Perfect0ne]

well i thought it was clear that i was ending that small dispute earlier, and by the silence, i figured i did.
Believe me, no one wants an extended format more than me- i feed off of OP.

[Otaku]

Otaku made an interesting suggestion in another thread -- block formats. These are formats like Base to Rocket only, Gym only, Neo only, and E-block only. I think these would make for interesting games, since so many tried-and-true combos would be broken because the cards are from different blocks.
To me, this is our best bet. Locally, I ahve had to stop my league atendance to make time for my school work (and since my only sourse of income is tutoring, it's hard to justify committing my Thrusday nights to Pokemon). Once my classes stabalize and I can find some reliable part time work, I will of course return, and I ahve already asked the local GL (for lack of a better term) and he is interested in the concept.

What are the advantages of block formats? I tried making a list of distinct advatanges, but there is a lot of overlap, or things that need explanations as to why they can be good. One thing is that its usually easier to deal with fewer cards. Yes, that means less chance of "direct" counters existing, but that is offset by less "broken" combos. Now add in that this forces people who want to play to explore the card pool thoroughly. This really stopped happening by Fossil: we had Haymaker, Wall/Stall, Venucenter and Raindance, and the evo based decks were in decline as is. What happens when we go back to Base-Rocket with what we have learned? Some cards will always be problems, and some cards from that format will probably never be used, but this was also the first of the TCG, so mistakes were expected. However, I know a lot of people who would hate me know, because I know some nice "rogue decks" and other tricks that ruin their plans. Turbo Snorla is somewhere between "gag" and "rogue" decks in Unlimited. In Base Rocket, it becomes a serious opponent. I can run Sychters to counter Hitmonchan, and after that, if you were too Trainer dependent, you're mine! On the other than, if you have a well thought-out deck, you and I will have a good match.

Gym is tricky: I must confess that I am inexperienced with many of these cards. Still, most of the "archetypes" based around these cards that were "over-powered" needed some outside influence, or more often, were the outside incfluence that "broke" a deck.

Neo's main "dilemma" is finding counter-tech for certain archetypes taht were out of control. If these can be dicovered, this could be a very interesting format... though some cards will likely need banning (Sneasel) or "errata-ing" to their original Japanese text (Slowking).

E-Block: this looks to be wonderful, at least if I can get the ruling that I do not understand on the Legendery Dogs of this set over turned (Rainbow has no type in hand; that's why it can't be Raindanced. The e-Dogs Poke-BODIES check the card types in hand, ergo they should not affect Rainbow). Once this happens, we tend to ahve good "counter-tech" for any potential archetype, even Scizor/Furret-the e-Entei can hit for a flat 40 for RCC. If the ruling is chainged, a Rainbow and two of any energy other than Fire shall suffice. If Scyther or Scizor show up, power up, and they shouldn;t have more than 3 Metal attached when you attack, half killing it (40 x 2 - 30=50). Then they have to OHKO you or heal to stay alive. It doesn't "ruin" Scizor/Furret, just makes it less of a bother.

Nintendo: this format is possibly what will be official anyway, and even if we wanted it, it ain't done. :p There are more sets from this block coming.

Now, there are issues that must be addressed, like where to stick the Promos and SI, and if the Legendery Collection should be used at all. Playtesting should answer those. Another is whether some banning or errata-ing should be done to cards. Again, play testing should provide it. While I dislike either, some cards were waaaaaaaaaay over-powered. Lastly, should a few cards be allowed outside of their sets for blanace? Base-Rocket has no stadiums, tools, or supporters. Metal Energy won't matter to any pre-Metal sets, but Dark matters to "Dark ______" Pokemon. I really sould start a thread, but it probably won't be soon: three exams next week.

[dkates]

For Neo, I'd keep the ban on Sneasel and Slowking. This is not from playtesting (although if you need help playtesting these, I'll be glad to, via Apprentice), but I'd base the placement of Promos on when they were released. Think of SI as an 11-Promo set -- that's basically what it is anyway. I, for one, would love to see these formats tried.

[RaNd0m]

I think it's arguable to say that Double Gust is BETTER than Gust of Wind. It functioned both as a switch and a gust, which made it excellent in Modified. In unlimited decks using cards like Sneasel and Scyther, there's no REASON not to use it.

~ RaNd0m

[filinal]

i say no gust of wind. you dont know how much i hate it but on the other hand i love playing it. Its only purpose is to make a possible win a real win. Say you have a tough guy ot really fast. All you need are gust of winds and youve won. Bye Bye all opponents benched basics and weaklings. ER has to be banned, it is just a simple no. Enough of those and youve slowed down your opponent enough to win. ER2 is acceptable because of the luck factor.

[Otaku]

i say no gust of wind. you dont know how much i hate it but on the other hand i love playing it. Its only purpose is to make a possible win a real win. Say you have a tough guy ot really fast. All you need are gust of winds and youve won. Bye Bye all opponents benched basics and weaklings. ER has to be banned, it is just a simple no. Enough of those and youve slowed down your opponent enough to win. ER2 is acceptable because of the luck factor.
That's one opinion... generally, GoW only lets you "win real fast" if your opponet built a bad deck. Sometimes a really skilled player loses to an unskilled one due to the power of Trainers in Unlimited, but any one individual Trainer rarely makes the difference. As for ER2 being acceptable, boy do I have a deal for you. Sweet, sweet comp... just one problem, half the time you start it, it does nothing... not such a good comp, is it? ER2 and SER2 are both too weak. The reward isn't worth the risk. Half the time, ER2 does absolutley nothing. That's why few people I know use Bill's Teleporter: 4 cards was good, but 0 cards were very bad. SER2 is even worse tha E2. The target's restricted, and while removing all of their energy sounds good, it only does that 1/4 of the time. another 1/4 of the time, it does to you what you were trying to do to them. Finally, it does nothing half the time. Personally, I don't know why we haven't seen some sort of "Energy Guard" Poketool, which would be a welcome addition for many decks. But back to the point. ER is only "too good" becuase so many Pokemon were "that bad": they wre very energy inefficient, so losing even one could doom them. Now, the rest of use just get annoyed when the opponent whips of 3 Ers in rapid succession. Annoying, but... well, that's just that: it's annoying. If you are not barely winning/losing, it should just be really annoying. If you are winning solidly or losing soundly, then it probably didn't matter. SER, on the other hand, did become to powerful Again, the card itself is "balanced". WHen I play a Trainer, I expect it to do something. that's Why ER was balanced, more or less. I had to use up a Trainer to nuke one energy. A 1-for-1 trade off. SER made you discard an energy, so it was a 2-for-2 deal.Now, since you can only attach one energy per turn, and through combinations of other cards, it was "broken" by being hit by a multiple barrages of them, which isn't evne that bad in and of itself, provided that that is what the deck does. SER became the real problem. With it and an ER, you could keep your opponent without Energy the whole game.

Long story short, energy removal itself is good for the game. We just need to find a way to make it work as a Trainer without "breaking" it.

[bullados]

how bout making it a Supporter? Same could be said for SER.

[Otaku]

how bout making it a Supporter? Same could be said for SER.
For ER, no... I ahve been discussing this with people at length and a normal ER as a Supporter is just bad. Burn a card and your supporyter for the turn to remove one energy. Scizor laughs at this. :rolleyes: Now, SER miiiight make a good supporter, but either a) they need to make it "free" otherwise or power it up. Losing my Supporter use for the turn in all but UNlimited is a steep price. It also prevents the infamous "I SER, then I SER, then I SER, then I SER" that ticks people off.

[bullados]

The reason I said that is because ER is already too powerful as it is. It sets a player back by at least one turn, and, more than likely, gets rid of a special energy, which are impossible to get back. I do note, however, that making ER a supporter might be too great of a step. How bout, instead of a Supporter, put this text onto both cards: "Place this card beside your active Pokemon. Discard it after your turn. You cannot play another card called "Energy Removal" or "Super Energy Removal" during this turn." This still leaves your Supporter open, and prevents the absolute abuse of these two cards. I will admit that the SER might still be a little overpowering, but there always has to be some downside to a card.

[Otaku]

The reason I said that is because ER is already too powerful as it is. It sets a player back by at least one turn, and, more than likely, gets rid of a special energy, which are impossible to get back. I do note, however, that making ER a supporter might be too great of a step. How bout, instead of a Supporter, put this text onto both cards: "Place this card beside your active Pokemon. Discard it after your turn. You cannot play another card called "Energy Removal" or "Super Energy Removal" during this turn." This still leaves your Supporter open, and prevents the absolute abuse of these two cards. I will admit that the SER might still be a little overpowering, but there always has to be some downside to a card.
WIth regards to ER setting a player back a turn, a good player will only be set back one turn. barring bad luck. Special Energy is not impossible to get back, but it can be difficult. This is why most decks that rely heavily on it have means of preventing its removal, like Ecogym, No Removal Gym, Slowking, Dark Vileplume (my personal fav), Chaos Gym (my second favorite). In Unlimited we have Energy Charge, Power Charge, Fossil Gastly, Energy Flow + Energy Abosrbtion via Mewtwo/Mewtwo ex, and probably the most efficient, Trash Exchange. Trash Exchange is more or less a deck staple in my area, used in conjuction with (in the past) a few Nightly Grabage Runs or (now) with Town Volunteers. 2 TV and 2 TRs can keep your deck going around and around for quite a while, so long as at least one of each (or two you have IFs, etc.) go back in your deck.

Simply adding a "one per turn" restriction to them is so obvious. I feel like an idiot for not thinking of that. So many Trainers that are too good plain, but not good enough to be a Supporter. As I said, SER, without having the discard on your end, would probably be a good Supporter.

Now, I must confess, this is getting off topic, so I'll try to get back to the point. THings like this are probably better for PMs, IMs, or new threads. :)