rokman rants! judges/pokeparents

[rokman]

I feel like a lot of pokeparents incentive for judging or staffing is "hey, I'll get cards for my kids who play" and whether or not that is true for everyone, it certainly looks that way. Especially in situations where a pokeparent is a judge and isn't even >75% sure on rulings, they are likely friends with the other pokeparents who run the tournament or whatever and that's how they got in a position to judge. It's sort of this understanding amongst all the older (no offense) adults in the community. And sure, I'm a 20 year old nerd who plays pokemon seriously who's opinion and/or perspective doesn't matter, I'm just calling it like I see it.

In the history of me playing, I've played in a lot of States and experience a plethora of judges and judging styles. I've even judged myself and made silly mistakes in the past (nothing severe). But something I have noticed, the large majority of pokeparents who judge (not EVERY SINGLE ONE!!!!), just aren't that good. They don't have the time to slave over cards, rulings, compendiums, stay up to date with the gym or what's going on, they pretty much hear everything news-wise second hand from their children(s).

And it isn't their fault. SOMEBODY has to judge! Unfortunately, the best judges I have seen are people who judge exclusively/very frequently and are very involved with the online community. (which can still be pokeparents!!!!!) OR the players themselves, people who would rather play than judge.

I am very thankful we have people who will judge in the first place, this post is not me undermining them offering their time, I just wish there were a lot more requirements and pre-requisites to judge.

People who take pokemon a little more seriously than me, take a judge's rulings EXTREMELY personally, and when a mistake is made, all heck breaks loose. This should not be happening for the judges or the players...

So, I'm not really sure what I'm getting at. I just wish there were much more things in place to prevent mistakes (extremely important for top cuts). A ruling is made, the head judge needs to make the call and reference TEXT for it. If that means completely re-writing the rule books to clarify everything down to minute details, so be it, I'm sure there are TONS of players and people within the community that would work together to get stuff set right.

Just look at these topics (read the discussion, not just the OP)
A true active position? (http://pokegym.net/forums/showthread.php?t=143187)
Opponent attaching/retreating rules (http://pokegym.net/forums/showthread.php?t=142954)
Cheating players? (http://pokegym.net/forums/showthread.php?t=142360)
Mr. Mime trick reveal? (http://pokegym.net/forums/showthread.php?t=143295)
*and these topics aren't even a month old!

It's many many things like this that aren't clear-cut, whishy-washy, up to the Head Judge's discretion. We Need official TEXT!

And people claiming "that takes too much time to reference text" have no idea what they are talking about. Players would be much happier waiting a few minutes for the right call. And the judges can give a time extension, if needed.

In Sports, particularly football, the referees make calls and when a Coach challenges it, the ref looks at replay after replay, from every camera angle available to him, even slowing it down to a frame-by-frame.

And if a judge consistently makes bad calls where it is overturned by the head judge WITH TEXT, that judge needs to stop judging. Period.

[Scorpidad]

I have noticed, the large majority of pokeparents who judge, just aren't that good. They don't have the time to slave over cards, rulings, compendiums, stay up to date with the gym or what's going on, they pretty much hear everything news-wise second hand from their children(s).


I am a pokeparent and I judge. I also read every single ruling both here and at the official forums. I read the compendium, I look-up harder rulings. I question rulings I need more information on. I only make rulings I am confident in, I never guess at a ruling. I listen to the players, look up a ruling if they dispute it, talk to other judges, call the head judge, whatever it takes to make correct rulings. Basically, I will admit I am wrong, but I read stuff to make sure that doesn't happen.

Also, I judge because I enjoy it, not for the cards. If that was the case, I would have passed on judging States for the CoL cards.


And if a judge consistently makes bad calls where it is overturned by the head judge WITH TEXT, that judge needs to stop judging. Period.

I agree here. The head judge can report to P!P the poor performance of the judge, they can (and should) report to the PTO that the judge should not be used any longer. Head judges (and PTOs) want good judges, not just anyone to fill a shirt. At least here they do!

All in all, if you have a problem with a particular judge consistently making rulings against published rules, talk to your PTO, NICELY. To see what can be done about it. Maybe your area really has a lack of judges, I don't know.

[Lawman]

I understand your "frustration" and always remember you have the right as a player to appeal to the HJ on any ruling.

That said, if you think this is a serious enough problem, then step up to VOLUNTEER. Too many "players" are willing to judge PRs, BRs and some CCs to get packs, but are way too busy playing to judge states and up. Thats a problem I see.

Keith

[rokman]

I am a pokeparent and I judge. I also read every single ruling both here and at the official forums. I read the compendium, I look-up harder rulings. I question rulings I need more information on. I only make rulings I am confident in, I never guess at a ruling. I listen to the players, look up a ruling if they dispute it, talk to other judges, call the head judge, whatever it takes to make correct rulings. Basically, I will admit I am wrong, but I read stuff to make sure that doesn't happen.
I wish there were more judges like that. But you can't for one second say every judge/pokeparent is like this...

Maybe your area really has a lack of judges, I don't know.
That is most DEFINITELY not the case. This post has nothing to do with my area. It's just my observations from all over... In fact, DFW has a lot of great judges. But I don't want this to be about my area because the judges around here who see this could think I'm talking about them or whatever.


That said, if you think this is a serious enough problem, then step up to VOLUNTEER. Too many "players" are willing to judge PRs, BRs and some CCs to get packs, but are way too busy playing to judge states and up. Thats a problem I see.
This is certainly the case for me. I am entirely a player before a judge. And I have no problem judging smaller events, but when it's a big tournament, I'm playing. And when I judge, I make sure I don't make a bad ruling. This is not the case for everyone and this is the reason I made this topic.

[ApachePrime]

As a player, I gotta say if you think you know the rules: JUDGE. Volunteer to do it for free if you have to. Prove you know your stuff. You will be appreciated, and it will improve the situation.

Also, educate the judges you see making a mistake. Ask if you can get their e-mail addresses and POLITELY e-mail them the ruling they didn't nail. If you aren't going to be polite, don't bother, but Judging is and always will be a constant learning experience.

Rok, I gotta disagree with you that too much is up to a HJ's discretion though. The rules in Pokemon are VERY logical and clean cut. Most rulings are as simple as searching for them here on the 'Gym. An incorrect ruling is just that: Incorrect. A miscalculation in judgement, and should be addressed to the proper authority. The text you are requesting is available, and most PTO's have contact info for other PTO's and even members of Team Compendium. I've scoured for a ruling while judging a States before, I've even been handed a phone and talked to Bulbasnore personally about a ruling. There are resources available for Judges and PTO's willing to use it.

[rokman]

Rok, I gotta disagree with you that too much is up to a HJ's discretion though. The rules in Pokemon are VERY logical and clean cut.
Well, I don't know about that. And to be honest, there shouldn't be ANYTHING up to the Head Judge's discretion...

[meganium45]

Oh, you have to be kidding me.

Nothing up to the head judges discretion?

There is no frame by frame replay of any football plays until you get to the pros.

In Junior Football, there are bad calls made every day. Only at the highest level of events do you get that type of attention.

Stop comparing Pokemon Judges to NFL Referees, such a bad comparison.

We, as PTOs put good HJs in place, and put good judge staffs in place.

Are they always top tier and the absolute best?

They are the best we can assemble. I am lucky with my judging staffs, but we have had issues for time to time (Yeah, I had a judge cuss me out and "resign" at a Regional when a call went against his son in another division, good times, good times)

Oh, and there are MORE skills that are needed to judge than just card knowledge. So long as a staff is trained properly in what to do when they do not know, I have no problem with a judge not knowing every minute detail of the who advances first when a player hits Gengar's fainting spell. I will know, other members of my staff will know, but that staff member will know WHO to turn to. Quick correct answers are not always needed. Correct answers are always needed.

Got a problem? Talk to your PTO.

Trust me, those that are judging Regionals and States are doing so for the love of the game. The judge support set is, well, you know.

Vince

[Team Cook]

I won't reply to the parents judging part but I'd like to say this. If judges, including the HJ and PTO would take the time to listen to the players, I really think we would have less problems. I'm a true believer that if the player and judge disagree on an issue, simply talk it out. A healthy discussion will correct the issue, pop a time extension and continue play. With that said, I'm also a believer that you'll see that a few judges will never admit they're wrong.

[rokman]

Stop comparing? I made one reference to NFL referees and the post doesn't change at all if the comment wasn't even there? And the reason why I made that reference didn't have anything to do with looking at replays, in the first place.

I was saying, referees spend time looking at everything from every angle instead of making the call on a whim.

So, if you bring that over to Pokemon, head judges should reference texts, scenarios, etc, to make their calls. Instead of just standing over the board and making a decision (which can sometimes be wrong). Even if the judge is 100% sure, I feel he should have to point right down at some official words on paper on how things should be handled or ruled or whatever...



And yes, there shouldn't be ANYTHING up to the Head judge's discretion. Because then things change from tournament to tournament, and nothing should be changing.

And before anyone else comments, this was not an attack on TOs and/or Judges. It was just an observation.

[butlerforhire]

This thread doesn't need to devolve into an "us versus them" stand-off.

I don't like how the stock response to any sort of comment about judging whatsoever always seems to be "if you don't like it, sacrifice your own play time to do it better." What kind of logic is that? Players are expected to give up States, Regionals etc. just to correct issues with judges that shouldn't be going on in the first place? I joined this game as a player, not as a judge, and it makes me angry when people suggest that I put their hat on and walk in their shoes or else I need to hold my tongue.

All I ask from a judge are the following:
- Comprehensive knowledge of the rules of the game, both procedural and mechanical. It is the judge's job to have extensive knowledge. They are supposed to be the ultimate resource for how this game is played.
- Willingness to admit lack of knowledge if necessary (ie. the Fainting Spell scenario that meganium45 brought up; something like that can get complicated and need clarification) and willingness to then go seek correct information from higher source (Compendium, HJ) rather than stubbornly issue what may be an incorrect ruling.
- Respect for the players. I can't stand judges who are quick to assume foul play and who lambast players assumed of doing wrong. We aren't all out to cheat the system.

Judges who fail to meet the above criteria should either be corrected or dismissed as judges. Players have the right to talk about their problems with judges like this without being attacked. This isn't a game founded on tyranny.

[SteveP]

Well, I don't know about that. And to be honest, there shouldn't be ANYTHING up to the Head Judge's discretion...
I don't think rokman is saying anything unusual here. Judges certainly have leeway to interpret the rules and penalties based on the situation. But, when they stray, which should be very seldom, they need to justify.

[PokeDad]

And if a judge consistently makes bad calls where it is overturned by the head judge WITH TEXT, that judge needs to stop judging. Period.

And if a player consistently makes bad plays?

No, seriously, I am trying to appreciate the message contained in tour original post.

I agree that judges should be right, or take the time to be right. I try to always point at the rule or guideline when judging.

That said, discretion is actually a part of the game, especially as it relates to initial penalties for our youngest juniors.

Outside of that, in near total accordance with the general thrust of rokman's post, the reason I use written rules and guidelines is so that players in the tournaments I judge have the same experience and opportunity when being ranked against players from other areas. I know the PTOs and judges in SoCal, Oregon, Texas, and St Louis do the same.

We all take our responsibility seriously. This year I will HJ our Regional, NorCal, and I will share my desire to see correct rulings and awarding of penalties based on what the rules and guidelines outline. I am a big fan of backing up rulings with another judge whenever possible. My greatest hope is for a smooth, mistake free tournament; I actually say a personal judge's prayer before tournament days.

Just as player skill and knowledge varies, so too does judge skill and knowledge. I apologize for any lack of absolute perfection that exists in the process of tournament play, but even the NFL referees with their instant replay make blown calls each week.

We all, players and judges, staff and parents, do our best to make the experience the best it can be.

I try to improve each season. I learn, I grow. Most of us do.

If you see a judge making absolutely incorrect calls, you might politely share your observations with the HJ or PTO, or follow up by polite email with that judge - not in anger, seeking his slow and painful execution by thousands of Pokemon card paper cuts, but in a spirit of kind helpfulness, with the goal of improving the game.

Just my two cents.

[rokman]

And if a player consistently makes bad plays?

By bad plays do you mean mistakes? If they make mistakes then they lose.

If you mean they cheat, when they are caught they are banned.

Your comment doesn't make any sense at all... :confused:

[PokePop]

rokman: You doomed this discussion in your very first sentence.

You just brushed all PokeParent judges with a very insulting and ugly brush.
You have a number of PokeParent judges/PTOs responding in this thread that I would be/am proud to work with on a judge staff.
Heck, a bunch of PokeParents create and maintain that thing you think everyone should reference, the Compendium.

Are there problems with the quality of some judges? Sure. I bet there are.
How about you focus on what those problems are, and bring up some specifics or examples, rather than disparaging the motivations of all PokeParents that give a heck of a lot back to this game for little reward and deserve better than to be insulted like that.

You made this topic into "us vs, them" by doing that.

[rokman]

You just brushed all PokeParent judges with a very insulting and ugly brush.

Well, there is unfortunately a lot of bad pokeparent judges, regardless of you guys defending them. The only reason they judge is for the packs, otherwise they would strive to learn every ruling and every card....

If they ARE slaving over rulings and are consistently bad, then they are just stupid and should not be in a position TO judge!

[PokeDad]

rokman,

I feel odd having to explain my comment, I felt it was understandable, but as you declare my comment doesn't make any sense at all, I suppose I am required to explain it; I don't want to be thought unclear. It is my singular greatest desire to be understood, to be found sensible, by you.

You stated that if a judge makes bad calls, that judge needs to stop judging, period.

I asked about players that make bad plays. Most people, I thought, could make the leap from your statement to my question. I was wrong, as my meaning was beyond your comprehension.

Let me be more clear: You advocate an end to judging for judges who consistently make bad calls. Do you similarly advocate that players who consistently make bad plays be prevented from further play?

I believe that players who consistently make bad, errant plays, can be taught to play better, can improve, are not without redemption.

While I wouldn't want to see a City Championship judge who makes tons of mistakes HJing Masters at Worlds, I don't see why, once identified as needing help, that judge can't receive additional guidance from PTOs and HJs and helped into better improved judging skill and ability at Battle Road or PreRelease tourneys.

Where I see the possibility for redemption, you rail for permanent prohibition. I wondered if you would take such a draconian stance if the failure was with a player instead of a judge. I do not. As you could not make any sense of my question, using mirroring words from the quote of your words immediately preceding my question, I leave it to you to respond if you wish.

I am sorry that my initial comment was poorly written, my message blunt. I only wish I had your communication skills, your clarity, your tact. Hopefully, having marshaled my meager skills, I have brought a greater degree of sense to my previous comment - although I recognize that I may lack the wherewithal to ever communicate to you sufficiently my intended message.

If you take nothing else away from my posts, take this: we are all trying to do the best we can, and we are in this together. I'm not saying you should give up playing at States, Regional, Nationals, or Worlds to grace us with your perfect judging. I am not saying that all the judges you encounter will be any more perfect than the play of the players they judge. I believe that the consistently imperfect judges you write about, and which I freely acknowledge exist, should receive training, help, and oversight in more entry level tournaments while you feel they should receive expulsion. We disagree on that.

---------- Post added 03/15/2011 at 05:20 PM ----------

Well, there is unfortunately a lot of bad pokeparent judges, regardless of you guys defending them. The only reason they judge is for the packs, otherwise they would strive to be better and learn every ruling, and slave over every card....

If they ARE slaving over rulings and are consistently bad, then they are just stupid and should not be in a position TO judge!

^^^^:eek:

I retract any kind thing I wrote about your communication skills. In this thread, you are utterly without tact or skill. I hope with age, and experience, you will find some measure of respect - for yourself and others.

I will not bother with this thread as you have befouled it like a bird it's own nest.

[EeveeLover]

This past weekend, I had the privilege to work with one of the most talented Teams I have ever worked.

We had Judges with multiple years of Nationals and Worlds level experience, Lots of States / Regional levels and probably close to 100 years combined experience.

Out of the entire team, all but 3 are Pokeparents. I challenge you to find fault with spookees, Master Professor Birch, Christine, Valerie, ronton, Dwayne, Tonja, Chad, Joey, Simba or myself.

I think the team issued a whopping 5 warnings all day.

The Judges were bored to say the least.

Good play results in good Judging.

Yes, there are some Judges that need more guidance and experience - that is the point of mentoring and training.

Back to that list from above, everyone of us were new and inexperienced at some point.

Good Judges are made - not born. One of those PokeParents could be the next Worlds Head Judge, after some good training and mentorship.

EL

[rokman]

You guys are taking this way too personally..... sheesh. Do you guys really think every judge out there is a perfect little angel doing everything selflessly, for the goodness of the children???

How about you focus on what those problems are, and bring up some specifics or examples, rather than disparaging the motivations of all PokeParents that give a heck of a lot back to this game for little reward and deserve better than to be insulted like that.
If I bring up anything specific, the judge will read this and know I'm talking about them. Which is what I don't want. I'm friends with every person I've met in person, including bad judges/pokeparents, unfortunately the way I talk online is brash and people are way the heck too sensitive.....................

Good Judges are made - not born. One of those PokeParents could be the next Worlds Head Judge, after some good training and mentorship.EL
And that is what is so great about Pokemon! We have a great community that will help people grow! Unfortunately, people like me, have to voice concern. Because judges who haven't grown AT ALL are put in positions to judge where they shouldn't be. They need more time to grow.

I think there needs to be more judge seminars like Da Fish did here in DFW. If TOs were doing that all over, going over everything, answering their judges questions, etc, we could all grow together...

rokman,

I feel odd having to explain my comment, I felt it was understandable, but as you declare my comment doesn't make any sense at all, I suppose I am required to explain it; I don't want to be thought unclear. It is my singular greatest desire to be understood, to be found sensible, by you.

Besides the fact your comment was super snide, thanks for that, you didn't elaborate. What I quoted was your entire post. You just went back and edited in a whole comment. And No, it did not make any sense at all. If YOU don't get that, then I don't need to explain why it doesn't make sense. :thumb:

And one other thing, if a player makes bad plays, he is going to lose. If he has a problem with losing, he will try to get better. A bad judge who makes bad calls can ruin an entire tournament for a player. That's why it is best for judges to "grow" at small events where entire seasons aren't on the line. That judge has the right to get better but if they don't, they need to be cut. Or at least not judge big events.... There really isn't anymore to discuss.

In the end, I'm just a player who wants the game to be better than it is. I'm not on here to insult people and hurt your precious feelings.

[Lawman]

Rokman: IF you have a problem with a particular judge or 2, talk/email the PTO/TO that keeps using said judge. Point out the weaknesses and any strengths. That would be much more productive than coming on here and painting with a broad brush. I hate to tell you, but the last few HJs at US Nats all started out as "Pokeparents", present company included! If it wasnt for our kids, we wouldnt have been involved in the game. I doubt you would want to toss me, Vince, BDS, SD PokeMOM, Bulbasnore, PokePOP, et al out with the other pokeparents.

Keith

[rokman]

Rokman: IF you have a problem with a particular judge or 2, talk/email the PTO/TO that keeps using said judge. Point out the weaknesses and any strengths. That would be much more productive than coming on here and painting with a broad brush. I hate to tell you, but the last few HJs at US Nats all started out as "Pokeparents", present company included! If it wasnt for our kids, we wouldnt have been involved in the game. I doubt you would want to toss me, Vince, BDS, SD PokeMOM, Bulbasnore, PokePOP, et al out with the other pokeparents.

Keith

While I never said all pokeparents were bad judges, there are waaaay too many. And everyone in this thread is most certainly not even close to the group of people I've been talking about.

But think about when you guys were new to judging. Think of being put at a big tournament in a final cut match. You'd make mistakes and the players are the ones being punished for it.

It really isn't even about learning every rule there is. Anybody can be a judge. Especially if they HAVE to find the text ruling to make a call, the best judges would be about being a fast researcher, instead of making gut calls that are up to your discretion...

Is it honestly that bad of me to want that?

[Team Cook]

Well, there is unfortunately a lot of bad pokeparent judges, regardless of you guys defending them. The only reason they judge is for the packs, otherwise they would strive to learn every ruling and every card....

You know Rokman, it's comments like above that really give players a bad name. You come on here spewing nothing but trash. The only truth to anything you've posted is the fact that yes, there are a few judges out there that need assistance. Everyone already knows this. And for every pokeparent you want to complain about, TOs and PTOs can match it with young twenty something players wanting to judge but failing and also needing assistance. The difference here is that the TOs and PTOs won't come on here and bash the young ones.

Like someone said above, if you're not happy or hear something wrong, bring it up politely as soon as possible. Coming on here complaining accomplishes nothing.

[rokman]

Like someone said above, if you're not happy or hear something wrong, bring it up politely as soon as possible. Coming on here complaining accomplishes nothing.

I haven't complained, once Cook. I've only brought the subject up from observations, and had to keep defending my opinion because all you TOs are taking it personally.......

Where did I complain?

Please quote it for me.

[PokePop]

Where did I complain?

Can you please tell me the definition of the word "complain" in your world?
It seems to be different than mine.

[PokePop]

It really isn't even about learning every rule there is. Anybody can be a judge. Especially if they HAVE to find the text ruling to make a call, the best judges would be about being a fast researcher, instead of making gut calls that are up to your discretion...
That is the third most important requirement to being a good judge.
You're totally missing the most important requirements.

[Team Cook]

I haven't complained, once Cook. I've only brought the subject up from observations, and had to keep defending my opinion because all you TOs are taking it personally.......

Where did I complain?

Please quote it for me.

Here you go.

Well, there is unfortunately a lot of bad pokeparent judges, regardless of you guys defending them. The only reason they judge is for the packs, otherwise they would strive to learn every ruling and every card....

If they ARE slaving over rulings and are consistently bad, then they are just stupid and should not be in a position TO judge!

If this isn't complaining, then what is it? Oh wait, you call it an observation.

[kwisdumb]

Well, there is unfortunately a lot of bad pokeparent judges, regardless of you guys defending them. The only reason they judge is for the packs, otherwise they would strive to learn every ruling and every card....

I agree with what you've said in this thread to a large extent, but it's posts like these that are making people get defensive. How about, as a player, you learn every single ruling, so there's no need to even call a judge? I know the analogy doesn't work perfectly, but I think you get the point.

[butlerforhire]

I think that this thread would have worked better if it had been about "lazy" judges and not specifically judges who are also Poke-parents. By "lazy" I mean any judge who is brought on board without the proper qualifications, regardless of the reason (be it lack of staff, desire to get cards or professor points, something to do while the kids play, whatever), and who has not put in the effort required of a good judge, such as learning rules and procedures. There are judges of all ages, with and without kids, who could be considered lazy.

I would like to see a thread about how particular PTOs prepare their selected judges to perform at events. I am legitimately interested in the entire process. How are judges trained? How is uniformity achieved?

[NoPoke]

The very best judges I've ever known in pokemon have all been pokeparents. In targeting pokeparents in general I think you did not choose your target wisely. Those same best pokeparent judges are more often than not either strong players in their own right or have family who are. They are invested in and committed to having tournaments run properly.

It won't be long before this thread ends up asking what the individuals who complain are going to do to improve the situation. Discussing the issue of judge selection with the PTO would be a good place to start but they had better be prepared for the PTO offering them a spot on staff. Complaining here, especially with such a blanket condemnation, isn't likely to result in any improvements :(

Here's a different question for you: Why are the top judges in Pokemon pokeparents?

[Shadmanv2]

Out of the entire team, all but 3 are Pokeparents. I challenge you to find fault with spookees, Master Professor Birch, Christine, Valerie, ronton, Dwayne, Tonja, Chad, Joey, Simba or myself.



With all due respect, over this past weekend I did find some faults in some of the aforementioned names. I will not say who or what the situations were, but there were instances with not only myself, but my friends where the judging, or attitude of the judges was less than friendly, which having played in New Mexico several times, came as quite a shock. So much so that one of my friends was considering dropping from the tournament completely and leaving the event altogether. I myself had some issues, but nothing too major. Luckily, we spoke to the T.O. and had things a bit ironed out. To her credit, she is indeed one of the best it has been my pleasure of playing in a tournament for.

Now, please don't get me wrong, this isn't a flame or troll or whatever the kids call it, but I do think the overall message is that the team, which you hold in such high regard, while very good, are not perfect. In all fairness, I believe that should be kept in mind when making any comments about judging. They are indeed human and some will make mistakes in rulings, or anything in that matter. Not everyone will know the mechanics, cards, rulings off the top of their head like clockwork, some may, but I'm sure that all important fact that they are indeed human will come into play at one point or another. However, I'm sure that most judges are indeed qualified and have invested the time to learn the criteria necessary to become a judge.

Now, in terms of saying pokeparents are simply judging for the sake of supplying their children cards I don't think is fair. Perhaps some do give their cards to their kids, but does that make them bad judges? I don't think so, what they do with their compensation is their prerogative, the only real argument that garners merit is how they do when they are in fact judging. Now, one that is completely unqualified I would be inclined to agree that perhaps they have no business judging, but as stated earlier, most are qualified and have met the requirements to obtain the title of judge. The judge's test in and of itself is not particularly easy, so it's not as if they simply guessed at the test and got by on a fluke.

Perhaps the most important thing to remember is that these people are human, and some will make mistakes, now, as others have said, if it's a problem, you can file a grievance with P!P, however, approaching the Head Judge, or even the T.O. if need be can alleviate things, as I experienced last weekend.

[ShuckleLVX]

I give my judge comp to kids, does that make me a bad judge?

The kids aren't mine, I don't have any of my own, and I have pretty much committed to memory the entire penalty guidelines and the whole compendium. But I give my comp to kids.

You are overgeneralizing, and very rudely. Maybe you only intend to give us your "insights", but you're doing it in a way I personally find offensive, and you're not even mad at me.

[MrMeches]

I will tell you honestly that initially I got into Judging because we were short in NTX and needed some help and then I found out I would be getting Packs. So yes, I am a horrible Pokeparent that Judged for Packs. However, somewhere along the way, I began enjoying the aspect of Judging and decided administrative would be the route I would take in my Pokemon adventure. I have made errors along the way, show me a Judge that hasn't I will will show you a fool in rose colored glasses, but that is how WE learn. Then as we progress, WE should begin sharing our knowledge and experiences, which you eluded to, in seminars and training sessions. Personally, I notice the need for the seminar I performed and it was well received and I hope to do another, with my wife's good graces, after Regionals.

Rok , you and I have known each other for many years, and understand the initial statement is what is making the skin crawl on ppl. Many Volunteer not realizing the indepthness of the Judging responsibility. You yourself can reflect and see that for the events you have judged. Take something from me, when you feel your getting bigger than the game and you think you know what is 'BEST' for the community, stop being a part of it. Kara reminded me of that... when it discontinues being about Friendship and Fun, then it becomes frustrating. In several of your links, I witnessed those situations and they all have one common thread, the Player demanding the Judge to be on their side and rule in their opinion.

Whicker's confrontation with me about the Active spot, as I can see his side, was excessive. We had newer Judges that came and asked me to look, and to avoid their confusion, I asked him to move it to the centralized active area as it is shown on the playmat provided in the preconstructed decks. Is that unreasonable for such a Top Tier Player? Would Pooka or Jason take such a defensive stand or would they adjust and move on?

In Ron's explanation of events, he failed to mention that is how they played during the entire match. Now suddenly during a crisis moment he wants to create an issue out of something he had allowed for 30 minutes prior.

See where the Us ~v~ Them scenario begins to unfold. If you had problems with certain Judges, then you know how to reach me of all people. But making a generalized statement is where the offensive side comes into play. That is why so many (P)TOs are commenting.

Hit me up later to discuss more if desired.

Fish

[rokman]

Having some sleep helped me realize, I probably should have re-arranged the topics I brought up in the original post. A lot of the discussion in this thread is about motives for pokeparents, and that really isn't even the issue. I only said that because I couldn't think of any other reason as to why someone would judge a tournament and be okay about being wrong all the time.

I also probably should have just made this topic about bad judges period and not said anything about pokeparents, mostly because I had no idea everybody would get so offended and what not. I've just noticed the trend and used them as an example of what I'm trying to stop.......

And yes, most older adults in the community ARE pokeparents (why else would so many grown people be in the game?) and I've realized that is a huge group of people. So, often times, most judges are pokeparents and it's only a few that are bad.

But come on guys, none of you have told me I'm wrong, there are PLENTY of bad pokeparent judges. You guys have just been picking at things I've said...


I give my judge comp to kids, does that make me a bad judge?
Where did I say that was a reason they are bad judges???? :nonono:

[Rogue Archetype]

Rokman. I find your topic thought-provoking and interesting.

You are allowed to vent your frustrations and they don't offend me at all. So, I'll convo with ya :)

WHEN I WAS STARTING OUT (as a PokeParent about 5 years ago i think...)

I actually studied the compendium weekly to ensure that I could help MY DAUGHTER learn the rules properly, so she wouldn't feel inadaquate when some bully kid was like "YOU DON'T EVEN KNOW THAT???"

I was REALLY into playing and was just asked to judge one day because I'm so responsible with children.
After awhile, my PTO was like "You should take the professors test. You know all the rules."

ABOUT EXPERIENCE vs. "studying"

What I learned is that you have to PLAY the game alot to really be a solid judge. Understanding the mechanics of decks and matchups (and common techs) makes you a more approachable judge. People can just casually call out a situation with the knowledge that you're well versed in the jargon; you can issue a very quick ruling and they can continue to play on without a hitch.

i.e.
"Hey, Mr. W., can I snipe the night spin Dnoir X if he's been cycloned back?"
Me = "yep"
"Does it become a stadium?"
Me = "nope."

So...

MY response to your topic is two-fold.

1. You have judges that PLAY the game actively. ("Type A")

2. You have judges that don't (or don't have much tournament play experience). ("Type B")

The first type ("Type A") doesn't really need to "study" anything. He just needs to know a few NEW rulings that have come down since his last experience (and it's probably on a card he's currently playtesting anyway). So, rulings come naturally and easily. There are only ruling mistakes made by VERY unique plays and NEW rulings.

The second type ("Type B") is well intended. He is filling a position that nobody else wants. Players play and they want the rankings. Some judges judge so YOU CAN HAVE AN EVENT to play in. So, these judges will make many mistakes and will need to check with other judges to verify rulings.
Be patient with this type (unless they're clueless AND irritable about it).
Chances are, they already know they're screwing up and they have to just stand there feeling insecure about it. Nevertheless, this is the position they put themselves in so their child can have a fully staffed event.

"THE CARD HOARDER"

Many new pokeparents have no idea about what they're going to get as a reward from judging. I was asked to judge and had to think about it even when someone told me "you get half a box for judging that!" I like to play. Judging takes my edge away and I don't get an opportunity to earn respect from the other players by staying off of the matchup sheets.

There ARE people who judge just to get their kids some cards. I can't really hate on that though Rok. Some parents just don't have the scrilla to cough up a buck and change for a box of cards to keep thier kids fresh in the format man.
Sometimes, that's a strong selling point to get some more judges into your area. "Hey, I know a way you can get your kids some cards." At some point followed by "If you ever have any questions about a ruling, just come to me. Try to read the "Ask the rulings team" threads a couple times per week though. They help you stay current."

ABOUT "STUDYING"

For REAL for real... I'm just not going to sit down and cram the compendium to judge an event.
It's not a 'fun' read. The compendium isn't written in that style.
I'm, actually, worried if a judge next to me says "I studied the compendium every night this week."
THAT would, actually, lead me to think he doesn't know the game very well.

If you play, you know.

I could care less about WHY someone judges. My OWN pet peeve is about anyone who becomes a PROFESSOR or A JUDGE without a good amount of premier tournament experience. It's like learning your craft before you 'level up.' Being an experienced player turned judge just makes sense to me.

ABOUT MISTAKES:

I make them. It's how you deal with your mistakes that makes the difference.
My absolute LAST resort is a warning. I just don't like having to issue any sort of formal reprimand on anyone.
I try to let people laugh, play, and enjoy their time together.

If something comes up and I'm wrong. I acknowledge it and I do whatever I can to repair the game state and get those players going (even if that means issuing a time extension). If I don't know something, I ask (even if I have to sneak by one of our BOSS ranked players and ask).

People don't really mind you NOT knowing something; they just don't want to take any losses because of it!!

Having an ill-equiped judge isn't the real issue. It's having a system in place that allows bad rulings to stay in place and affect the win/loss column. If the inexperienced/unknowledgable judge is willing to learn from mistakes, you'll grow your judge pool and laugh those mistakes off in time.

I've gotta get back to work now...

[rokman]

Thanks a ton RA for actually talking about this instead of nit-picking at my choice of words! Haha, I do appreciate it, now that this topic won't completely devolve.....

I totally agree with everything you said. But I would like to mention, I never meant "judging for cards" as an insult. (and for that matter, anything I said was not meant to be insulting, it just came out that way ;_;) That's why I judge small events instead of playing. I get to help out and I get some packs, heck yeah. (so can we finally let this topic of motives die? It wasn't even meant to be the discussion???? -_-)

But I probably should have done what you did, and separate judges into archetypes in my initial post. That's a really interesting topic and I might write up another poorly worded rant that infuriates a bunch of random people on the internet some other time! :D

If something comes up and I'm wrong. I acknowledge it and I do whatever I can to repair the game state and get those players going (even if that means issuing a time extension). If I don't know something, I ask (even if I have to sneak by one of our BOSS ranked players and ask).
This is exactly the type of judge I wish EVERY judge was.

But, my idea was this, when a judge is sent to a table and asked a ruling (tiny ones to major ones), s/he needs to bust out a rule book, find the text, point at it, show it to the players, and read it. This would prevent a.) wrong rulings b.) judges feeling the need to acknowledge they were wrong/whatever c.)a smoother tournament with less problems. d.) removes any inconsistency between different judges.

And this comes back to a thing that happened at OK states this past weekend, a player's sleeves were horrendously marked (so I've heard, I didn't see them) and I think instead of the judges pulling the players aside and "talking it out" the judges should whip a rule book out, point down at text that says something like "if any of a players sleeves are different from the rest, these penalties should be issued: ..........." That would have like resolved the issues immediately, people wouldn't feel they are being picked on, etc. Because if it says in plain official documents what the judge is supposed to do, how could the player argue what happened to him?

I don't know. I just think it's getting ridiculous that at almost every single tournament I attend, something happens that it shouldn't. Most of the time it's TINY things that don't matter, or it's tiny things that don't matter that is blown out of proportion, or it's something real. And often times, it's usually a judge's fault these things go wrong, whether a ruling/penatly was wrongly given, or the judge handled a situation wrong.




and Here's another thread that shows how differently people rule things: http://pokegym.net/forums/showthread.php?t=143457

And yes, I can go to the tournament's TO and talk about what happened with whatever judge, but that doesn't put me (or whoever) in the top cut chair where they should be at that moment. And for that matter, e-mailing Pokemon doesn't do that either!

[NoPoke]

"random people" there you go again with the ill considered insults: so if I'm infuriated by your posts I can be dismissed as random? *shrug* FWIW I don't take offense at what you are posting but you are not helping your cause at all with the continued negative comments on judges in general.

=====

marked sleeves is not such a quick issue as you suggest. A determination of intent has to be made too and that can take time.

Its the judges fault when things go wrong?? Judges are usually just clearing up the mess. Some do a much better job than others but they don't get involved until there is a mess. Even that issue over the centering of the active is to prevent a tiny mess from turning into a big mess.

[rokman]

"random people" there you go again with the ill considered insults: so if I'm infuriated by your posts I can be dismissed as random? *shrug* FWIW I don't take offense at what you are posting but you are not helping your cause at all with the continued negative comments on judges in general.
Nitpicking at my choice of words. *shrug*

Its the judges fault when things go wrong?? Judges are usually just clearing up the mess. Some do a much better job than others but they don't get involved until there is a mess. Even that issue over the centering of the active is to prevent a tiny mess from turning into a big mess.
Yes, it is. Things are bound to go wrong and ~90% of the time it's a ridiculously small issue that has no effect on anything, but it's the judge who makes it a bigger issue.

Also, NoPoke, aren't you in ENGLAND? I have no earthly idea what things are like for you over there, so how would you know what it's like for me????????????

It's getting really exhausting defending my opinions because every single word or phrase I'm using is being thrown in my face, so just forget it.

[SD PokeMom]

since you weren't involved in the sleeves issue, how do you know that the HJ et al did NOT break out the tourney rules/penalty guidelines when making their ruling and dealing with the player(s)?

judges/TOs/PTOs are 'taking this personally'?

a question: as a player, how would you take a judge/TO posting something like this:

"I just think it's getting ridiculous that at almost every single tournament I judge, something happens that it shouldn't. Most of the time it's TINY things that don't matter, or it's tiny things that don't matter that is blown out of proportion, or it's something real. And often times, it's usually a player's fault these things go wrong, whether a card was wrongly played, or the player handled a situation wrong."

just curious...
'mom

[rokman]

since you weren't involved in the sleeves issue, how do you know that the HJ et al did NOT break out the tourney rules/penalty guidelines when making their ruling and dealing with the player(s)?
Well, first off, I'm really good friends with the judges that had an issue. And I talked with the player a lot at the tournament, after, and the next day. They all told me what happened after I inquired and I was like 25 feet away from the situation so I saw everything. I was even called over for marked sleeves but it was two random cards with dust marks on the back and the only way to see it was to inspect it under a microscope while looking at it under light. I wasn't given a penalty, I just had to re-sleeve those two. And they did not pull a book out for anybody.



judges/TOs/PTOs are 'taking this personally'?

a question: as a player, how would you take a judge/TO posting something like this:

"I just think it's getting ridiculous that at almost every single tournament I judge, something happens that it shouldn't. Most of the time it's TINY things that don't matter, or it's tiny things that don't matter that is blown out of proportion, or it's something real. And often times, it's usually a player's fault these things go wrong, whether a card was wrongly played, or the player handled a situation wrong."

just curious...
'mom
Well, I'm sure from the perspective of a judge who made an error, it looks like it's the players fault. I mean, they did call the judge over in the first place. But no, I wouldn't take offense to that. There are just as many bad players as there are bad judges........ :frown:

[Yoshi-]

I think most parents judge because theyre there anyway and arent interested in playing / want to help out.
Of cause no one will complain about the packs, but why? Its not like judges get incredible amounth of packs for their work. But you can get some stuff for your kids while spending time with them, where is the issue in that? If I want to work while spending time with my children and earn some packs thats fine, isnt it? No one would go there saying "I hate this tu I want boosters" because in that case you might as well get real work.


And honestly, what does a judge really do on pokemon tournaments? IMO you need one or 2 Judges that really know the rules and stuff and then you need a few people for "kindergardening", collecting results, calling the headjudge in case something really went wrong, distributing prizes etc etc etc. Pokemon isnt a rule heavy game. Im glad we have people that are willing to judge, if they dont know there stuff and dont go around acting like they do but get another judge in case they dont know what to do I dont see a problem.

[Team Cook]

But come on guys, none of you have told me I'm wrong, there are PLENTY of bad pokeparent judges. You guys have just been picking at things I've said...

Why would we come on here and tell you that you're wrong? We've all agreed that there are some bad judges out there. What was picked at was the way you said it AND you yourself admitted that it should have been written differently.

[rokman]

Why would we come on here and tell you that you're wrong?
Because almost every post in this thread is just that? :thumb:

[Lawman]

Nitpicking at my choice of words. *shrug*


Yes, it is. Things are bound to go wrong and ~90% of the time it's a ridiculously small issue that has no effect on anything, but it's the judge who makes it a bigger issue.

Also, NoPoke, aren't you in ENGLAND? I have no earthly idea what things are like for you over there, so how would you know what it's like for me????????????

It's getting really exhausting defending my opinions because every single word or phrase I'm using is being thrown in my face, so just forget it.

What has his location have to do with judging principles??? Ian has been at every Worlds that I can think of in the last 6 yrs or more, ON STAFF. Last I checked, he had to judge US players in those matches, along with the rest of the world. Again, you "attack" someone for no reason. I guess that was a "random attack".

I carry the penalty guidelines with me when I judge. I dont carry around a copy of the Compendium (I used to though). I often pull out the page where a rule is and the recommended penalty, so the player understands the reason for the ruling and penalty. Quite often though, we are asked Q's that involve card interaction. That is not covered under the rules and penalties. Heck, it may not have made it into the Comp X even! It isnt always that easy to "pull out text" to prove the point. A judge rules. If you disagree, ask for the HJ. The HJ may or may not pull out text, but they will rule. At that point, you move on.

Keith

[Team Cook]

Because almost every post in this thread is just that? :thumb:

Brick wall!

We're telling you you're wrong WITH THE WAY YOU"RE PRESENTING YOUR ARGUMENT.

Again, we agree there's judges that could use a lot of assistance (better than saying they're bad, lol).

[rokman]

What has his location have to do with judging principles??? Ian has been at every Worlds that I can think of in the last 6 yrs or more, ON STAFF. Last I checked, he had to judge US players in those matches, along with the rest of the world. Again, you "attack" someone for no reason. I guess that was a "random attack".
Well, him being in England changes a lot. I have never met a judge from England (I have a few players though) and basically know nothing about how things are handled there. And I wouldn't for a second expect him to know what it's like in the Southern United States........

I carry the penalty guidelines with me when I judge. I dont carry around a copy of the Compendium (I used to though). I often pull out the page where a rule is and the recommended penalty, so the player understands the reason for the ruling and penalty. Quite often though, we are asked Q's that involve card interaction. That is not covered under the rules and penalties. Heck, it may not have made it into the Comp X even! It isnt always that easy to "pull out text" to prove the point. A judge rules. If you disagree, ask for the HJ. The HJ may or may not pull out text, but they will rule. At that point, you move on.

Keith
And that's totally awesome, I really think that's great. I would very much appreciate a judge to show me in the text why I was given a penalty and the consequences if I was given one. And when/if that happens, I'll be sure to ask for it in text.

But I rarely see anyone whip out a rules book at tournaments. Maybe like three or four times a season? The whole point of this topic was I thought it would be better for Pokemon if judges carried a rules book around and used it to make rulings. Even if that means re-writing it to get down to every detail.

[SteveP]

...
But, my idea was this, when a judge is sent to a table and asked a ruling (tiny ones to major ones), s/he needs to bust out a rule book, find the text, point at it, show it to the players, and read it. This would prevent a.) wrong rulings b.) judges feeling the need to acknowledge they were wrong/whatever c.)a smoother tournament with less problems. d.) removes any inconsistency between different judges.
...
Come on now. That's a bit ridiculous. I'm not going to ask the highway patrol to show me the speeding law. That would be very disrespectful.

Likewise, you expect some level of expertise and knowlege from the judges. If you feel the judge's ruling is wrong, you can appeal and ask for confirmation, but some rules are so well-known that any request to "show me the rule" is being disrespectful.

There are times when it's appropriate to reference the rules. However, I'd say those times are less common than you think.

[rokman]

Come on now. That's a bit ridiculous. I'm not going to ask the highway patrol to show me the speeding law.
Well, with that analogy, there are speed limit signs next to the road like every mile......

And it is your right to ask for the law. And it's part of the police officer's job to answer that. And I doubt there's a single cop that would feel it's disrespectful to ask that.

This is kind of an interesting analogy. Players = drivers, judges = cops. Drivers have to take tests to learn the laws before they can drive. So these things are "understood' amongst drivers. Maybe there should be something like a Professor test for players? Interesting....

[meganium45]

Rokman, you have no idea how bad it can be.

When I started in this game in the WOTC era, we were dealing (in my area) with CROOKED TOs and bad judging not as an exception, but as a rule.

Gym Challenge - Indianapolis. I got to see my son get ROBBED of a trip to Worlds by a Judge who made a bad ruling, completely on his daughter's side, and when his fix didn't go far enough to END the game against my son, he changed it even further at her request! I objected, and was told I was not one of the players, and then objected again, and was asked to leave the venue. GREAT way to treat a 6 year old player.

Central Stadium Challenge - one of the premiere events, judges there who DIDN'T know the rules, didn't care, and had a kid against my son in the Top 8 - top 4 go to Worlds, that Played a Chaos Gym, making my son flip for all his trainers, and whenever he played a trainer - no flip. When my son objected TO A JUDGE, the other player talked his way out of it. When I asked that a judge be assigned to watch the match, they said sure, and the KID KEPT DOING IT. The match was decided by 2 missed flips by my son, followed by a NON-FLIP trainer by his opponent. All the judge wanted to do is mark the match slip and go away. When I went to talk to one of the "Organizers" and I use the term loosely, they explained that any problems had to be taken care of during a match, and when the judge involved was called over, it was OBVIOUS to both me and the organizer that he had NO IDEA what he was watching, and simply took my son's opponent's word for the rulings (incorrectly).

At that point I figured this was simply an insider crooked game, and if it couldn't be run right, then we were done. I went back to ST. L., fought to become a TO, and when Nintendo took over, after a bit of a fight, became a PTO, and have fought tooth and nail to make sure that all events are run FAIRLY.

Why am I placing this in your thread?

To show you how far the game has come. It can improve, and a lot of your points are correct and well taken, but brother, you have no idea how bad it was.

Anyone who was at Nationals 2004 will easily admit - the game has improved infinitely. That event was poor. Nationals, even when small problems occur, is head and shoulders better, and continues to improve.

That being said, keep pointing out weaknesses and room for improvement.

Boy, my turn to rant.

Vince

[Biggie]

Also, NoPoke, aren't you in ENGLAND? I have no earthly idea what things are like for you over there, so how would you know what it's like for me????????????

He would know as a Pokeparent who has extensive judging experience in multiple counties including the U.S. at events like Worlds. Just sayin. :thumb:


Edit to add: Man, I was seriously beaten to the punch on that one. I didn’t think I was that slow to answer, lol.

[rokman]

Well, first off Vince, you're one of the coolest people in the game I've ever met (and I've only met you like twice). I remember in 04, you were judging/running (not sure) the Southern Gym Challenge and me and my friends just showed up with base set/jungle/fossil cards. We didn't know anything about the game, let alone the concept of modified format. And you set up a tournament for us 4 and gave us a box of EX hidden legends to play for! And since we all share cards, we went insane.

Maybe I wouldn't even be involved in Pokemon as much as I am today if it wasn't for you, and I really respect your opinion. So, hearing how bad it was back then really scares me. I love this game so much and if it was that bad right now, I don't know what I'd do! :(

I guess I'd be making a lot more threads like this and choosing my words much worse than I am now... haha

[meganium45]

I appreciate it, and I remember you from back then.

MP Birch and I co-produced that event, and it was one for the ages.

Just pointing out that we have always had problems to deal with, but the game is evolving, the volunteers are evolving, and even with the Pokeparents, they have to be developed and mentored, and it is not always a perfect quick process.

Keep observing, for the moment we take the attitude that "We are perfect, we have it nailed" we are simply fooling ourselves.

Vince

[Glumanda]

rokman, like Goethe said: "Think about the what, more think about the how".

Well: The "How" is absolutely wrong, but I think you know that by now, so I will more concentrate on the "What".

Topic 1: Poke-parents and persons who just go for the packs.
Now, on what we can agree is that there are people out there who are judging just "for the packs" or other incentives. From my personal experience, the group judging just for the packs is more often some players than some poke-parents. Many poke-parents understand that someone has to run that show and do it so their children have an opportunity to play. As a side effect they bring this opportunity to everyone. E.g., in our region we have a poke-parent who was playing tournaments with his kids but had no league in his hometown. So, he went and created one, searched for a location, and asked if he can hold tournaments there. What was the result? One more opportunity to play for everyone in our region. Is he an awesome super-duper great judge? Not yet, but he is thriving to be one, asking questions, attending our annual judge seminar trying to learn whatever he can from the "good" judges in our area gaining more and more experience with every tournament he judges.
I would go and say that the poke-parents are one of the backbones for the growth of this game.

Topic 2: Judges make too much mistakes / are bad
Well, I still have to see a tournament where my judging staff makes more mistakes than we give penalties for the mistakes of the players. Do judges make errors? Of course they do, but they are as human as the players. You do not have any robots there. This is not an excuse: Judges should make as less mistakes as possible, no doubt about that, but even the best judges will have their weak moments. Instead of discussing everything at length here at the Pokegym, first talk to the judge, then to the head judge, and then to the TO. And then, you can always ask the TPCi. And on a side note: You will always have weaker judges at tournaments. Why? Because becoming a good judge is a learning process. You can study as much as you want, but nothing can teach you to put your wisdom into practice better than actually doing it. Good judges do not grow on trees and you can harvest them, you have to build them up.

Topic 3: More text, no leeway
This is a topic where I would partly agree with you. First of all, many judges are already fulfilling your requirements when they carry along a rule book, or the tournaments rules, or the penalty guidelines. While the Compendium is a great resource, I will not kill a little rain forest to print it, as long I have a computer with Internet aceess. I am a disbeliever in the notion that every decision should be backed up with text. This is just taking up too much time for every itsy-bitsy issue. However, for difficult decisions or penalties this is a good way to give your ruling credibility which is a good thing in certain situations and thus done by many judges. I would sure love to see some kind of Comprehensive Rules like other games have, but I do think that there are other good resources which can be put to good use.

Head Judge should have no discretion? In this consequence it is wrong. I think it is impossible to write a document which covers every possible situation. There will always be that extraordinary situation where the Head Judge has to use his discretion. But I would agree that the amount of situations where the Head Judge must use his discretion could be lowered drastically, by having Penalty Guidelines which go more into detail, especially when it come to how to correctly correct game states. There are inconsistencies in the way people do things, this is correct, and I´m a big proponent of having less leeway in the rules, but you have to keep at least some flexibility to deal with special situations. There is a tradeoff between consistency and flexibility. Do you want the judges to act like a robot, executing "if X goto Y"-chains (100% consistency)? Or do you want the judges to assess every situation in the way how they think it should be assessed (100% flexibility)? I think you would like to have somewhat in between.

[Darkwalker]

Rokman, requiring judges to pull out text (or a laptop) with the ruling/penalty in question for everything and anything is both unnecessary and extremely time consuming.

Simple questions such as, "Can I evolve my Chamander into Charmeleon and then into Charizard in the same turn without Broken Time Space in play?" should not need a judge to hold up the entire tournament possibly because a time extension had to be issued while the ruling was found and shown to the player. Judges are there to answer the questions that the players have about the game rules. Judges are also there to make sure that any penalties that players earn during game play are noted and enforced.

Will every judge know every answer to every situation? Of course not! The good ones will certainly try and find the answers to the situations they are unsure of as quickly as possible. If you, as a player, still disagree then appeal to the head judge in a polite manner.

One thing you have mentioned already is all the various P(TO)'s jumping in and "nit picking". The reason for this is simple, your initial rant was about "bad" judges. What the P(TO)'s read into that was a lack of concern over having bad judges at their tournaments. Which, in effect, is an attack on them. You continually say that you are not intending to be disrespectful and that your are poorly wording your statements, yet you continue to respond without fully thinking out how other people will take what you are saying. Doing so lessens your intended effect for those who are directly involved with running and judging tournaments.

You also seem to be of the opinion that judges are not evaluated on their performance during an event. Just because you are not privy to that, does not mean it doesn't actually happen. I for one, regularly seek input on how I did when judging an event. I want to know what I did well, and what I can work on to improve for the next time.

You also seem to completely disregard how a judge interacts with the players. Clearly explaining a ruling to a Worlds-caliber Master is one thing, explaining that same rule to a first-time-at-a-tournament 7 year old is a skill all on it's own. That also happens to be a skill that most "pokeparents" have simply from the fact that they are just that, parents.

While I can understand your concerns over a perceived poor judge, or staff of judges, at an event, you also need to look at things a bit outside your own perspective as a player before you come on the 'gym and shedding light on those issues in a public forum.

[Benzo]

I do see a point in your observation rokman- the thing is, Volunteers are "aprentices" who are not people who can make a final call. If you have an issue, talk to the HJ/TO- in a manner like how others have said.

Take a moment and seriously look at the word "volunteer". They are in training, or just assisting in the best way they can. If they get cards for their effort- rightfully so as a sign of appretiation for WHAT they are doing, even if the reason is just to get cards. It is only fair to thank those who do put an effort into volunteering.

Show me an event that went 100% flawless without volunteers, from the people who help set up the event down to the people who cleaned up the venue afterwords.

An event will have issues, in one form or another- minor ( unoticable ) to major ( a fight in the lobby)- and without volunteers to pick up some of the "slack" or plain assisting- they are exactly that- volunteers. And people volunteer for their own personal reasons. Just like the players who play, it's for their own reasons. Two way street. Players get rewarded, so do the volunteers. And I will reward any volunteer that does assist, even if they made a hundred mistakes- just that I would make sure that next time around there is less mistakes made in the future when I am notified/informed or I see the mistakes being made.

If a parent is a volunteer judge, and they make mistakes once in a while- I am just greatful that there are parents out there who are doing SOMETHING with/for their kids.

If a judge is making to many mistakes- and no one is speaking up to the TO-HJ- then nothing can be done to encourage that volunteer to "up their skills", and history repeats itself.

Players have responsabilities too, and take it from me- As an orginizer and as a volunteer( DS events, for those who are wondering)- any and all help is appretiated, and if the people I select in volunteering for me can not keep it togather- I WORK with that person to get them to be at a level that is acceptable for ALL the PLAYERS sake. If over time that person can not keep it togather- I simply remember what they can do best at and send them in that direction. I can not change something if no one tells me that there is a need for a change. Cuz all I see is a person helping me out, and helping others out.

When all the judges retire/quite/leave-whatever- who is going to step up to take on the new open slot(s)?
Hopefully those volunteers, cuz at least they have a foot in the door and the desire to be a part of Pokemon all around.

[Politoed666]

I must say that I do find the obvious alliance between high-rank staff and know-nothing PokéParents somewhat aggravating at times. My issue isn't so much judges who have been promoted without knowledge of the game as parents who receive preferential treatment from staff at events.

I cannot stand staff members judging a children's card game who clearly hate teenagers, but who are hearty friends with all the PokéParents. As a result, I've seen juniors who have misplayed, etc. who are the prodigy result of a deeply invested PokéParent get preferential treatment over other kids. Disgusting.

Again, though, in this area Jimmy and the other tournament organizers are pretty careful about having good judges and avoiding preferential treatment to PokéParents/their kids.

[dadbobo]

I think that the argument can be made that there bad players that result in bad judging sometimes.. There are players who think they are right no matter what and will argue with the judge even if you show them the correct ruling. There are mistakes made by both parties judges and players especially when you are new to the game or judging but you gotta start somewhere and if poke-parents did not step up who would. You cannot have games with out judges, so remember that they are doing the best they can and its a steep learning curve and mistakes will be made, however its learning from the mistake as a player and a judge that is the difference.. If a judge makes the same mistake over and over then maybe some more training needs to happen, if a player argues over and over with multiple judges at every event then maybe its time to look at yourself as a player. I feel I am very lucky to be in the North Texas area we have I feel the best staff and my local league especially has a very good poke-parent judge who drives kids to events and teaches us all...Lets remember why we play the game because of the love of it we are all kids at heart in this community

[NoPoke]

WOW! I must say that I do find the obvious alliance between high-rank staff and know-nothing PokéParents somewhat aggravating at times. What obvious alliance? No seriously what obvioius alliance. That is a major accusation.

My issue isn't so much judges who have been promoted without knowledge of the game as parents who receive preferential treatment from staff at events. Without Knowledge????: you need to give examples. And "without knowledge" would be a BIG issue for me so why not you? Perhaps this is just scaremongering and you can't give examples? (If you can then don't do it here)

I cannot stand staff members judging a children's card game who clearly hate teenagers,HATE TEENAGERS?? again any event where the staff behaves that way needs to be reported not brought up as a general accusation without substantiation. but who are hearty friends with all the PokéParents. more wild accusation? As a result, I've seen juniors who have misplayed, etc. who are the prodigy result of a deeply invested PokéParent get preferential treatment over other kids. Disgusting. I've seen bias too. mostly in the very early days, it was why I switched from player to judge. If it is still occurring regularly then it is disgusting and does need to be addressed. Railing and wailing here won't help though :(

Again, though, in this area Jimmy and the other tournament organizers are pretty careful about having good judges and avoiding preferential treatment to PokéParents/their kids.

And at the end you try to redeem your post by not offending your local PTO. Do you realise that you just made a fairly standard racist polemic? My local <insert disliked group> is okay but all the others are bad.

If a player goes into a tournament with the attitude that staff are "Guilty until proven innocent" then they will have problems, but the sad part is that they probalbly won't realise that they are part of the problem and its not all someone elses fault.

[Kayle]

I must say that I do find the obvious alliance between high-rank staff and know-nothing PokéParents somewhat aggravating at times.

Wait aren't most of the high-rank staff here PokeParents?

WHOA. MIND-BLOWING!

Sometimes I am a little annoyed by the alliance between high-rank staff an P!P, buuuuut... this is much more of a stretch.

[chrataxe]

Can we at least acknowledge the diference between a mistake by a player and a mistake by a judge? When a player makes a mistake that results in a game loss, most players are somewhat ok with that as it was THEIR mistake. When a player loses a match because a judge makes a mistake, no player is ok with that since it WASNT their mistake. So, can we really quit pointing the finger at the players? Players dont play so judges can judge but judges do judge so players can play, there is a huge difference.

Sent from my LS670 using Tapatalk

[Cyrus]

While I'm not sure exactly what all I agree or disagree on in your post, I will say that the principle behind it has some merit. The issue it addresses isn't necessarily tied to Pokeparents, but can be applied to all bad judges in general. A huge issue with judging is that - due to the volunteer system - it's hard to always find the best people you could get.

How could Pokemon draw in better staff? Simple: more compensation. While this won't necessarily change the PTO's opinion as to who he/she wants, it "does" grow the applicant pool, and the more applicants the PTO hears from, the greater the odds are that a staff dream team could be organized.

Two boxes per judge; pay for the day's event; hotel comp; Pokemon Kraft Mac n' Cheese. No matter what's chosen, if TPCi makes a sufficiently good raise in compensation, and if PTOs keep an open mind, then this issue could dissolve.

[NoPoke]

The very worst judging I ever experienced was from professional staff brought in to run an event many many years ago. They had zero interest outside that days pay. That isn't saying that they did not want to do a good job but that they lacked the knowledge that would allow them to do a good job. The same can be true of volunteers, and I have a deal of sympathy for any organiser who is trying to run events where the knowledgeable players don't want to help run the event. I have no sympathy for a TO that does not put in any effort to try and find good staff. I would be surprised if that occurs much in the USA amongst its PTOs. If that is not the case then TPCi needs to know.


"When a judge makes a mistake" seems to be a common theme. The central idea being that players are allowed to make mistakes but judges are not. Judges generally don't interfere with matches unless to prevent a small mistake from turning into a big one. Judge initiated interactions are typically at the Caution level or less and this does exactly what to the in progress game? I can't absolve a judge from making a card ruling error when called over by players but the responsibility does not shift 100% onto the judge once called. Its not a hot-potato and no longer a player issue once a judge is called.

It goes without saying that there will be poor judges out there. They may be poor for lots of reasons but blaming them for being poor for being pokeparents is a lot like blaming them for being poor for having blue eyes or being short or having two legs. If you experience poor judging then you must let the HJ know - preferably on the day at the event during the incident by using the appeal process. No TO wants to deal with the fallout from poor staff. At least none that expects to continue as a TO at the bigger events.

[Cyrus]

Paid and compensated =/= "professional." There can be an argument that if P!P moves in the direction of independent agencies and outfits judging their events, then they may lose the personal touch required for Pokemon events; however, better compensation is a powerful motivator, and is likely to draw many of those desirable people into the competitor's pool for event organization.

[NoPoke]

greed is a motivator. A motivator that can produce good outcomes as well as bad. I have seen both.

I want to be 100% clear that there is a problem with attracting and retaining quality judges. Also that the prospect of being roasted on a forum like this one or a forum that has less restrictions upon how members can post is a deterrent that reduces the number of volunteers from the player pool. That there is a "them and us" attitude too but much of the time it is coming from the players and not the PTOs and staff.

[Lawman]

Well said Ian! I agree with both of your last 2 posts 100%.

Keith

[MrMeches]

Rokman... after today, Pokeparents aren't the issue... it is just BAD JUDGES!

Pick me... so in a Tier 2 I f I shuffle my hand into my deck just because, can I just be verbally told not to do that and keep playing without a hand? I mean I know the Rules say Game Loss, but can I keep playing, please?

Why Yes.. you just get no hand nor will I even give you a penalty of any kind!

BAD JUDGES!

Fish

[charcharchar]

Actually, bad player.
That is seriously against SOTG guidelines, sir.

[EHLERZ5]

Just a nobody from nowhere here so this post may not hold much clout... My family hasn't even got to play the game for almost a year. I've read this whole thing from an outsiders point of view. Good Judge/Bad Judge Poke Parent or not... Why aren't the Judges in General getting any praise for giving their time so you people and your family can enjoy the game of Pokemon? Even if they don't know a darn thing about the game -- they are still there, at least pitching in helping the Organizers. Without someone stepping in and tossing their hat in the ring... You don't play! I understand the big business, the worlds trips, yadda-yadda-yadda... But look at this card game for what it is - a good time for family and friends.

Take the NFL out of here --- and insert the teenage umpire doing his/her thing at your kids little league game... The umpire is out there in 90+ degree heat with all the gear on, and yes alot of calls they might make can be described as BRUTAL... There always has to be one Parent in the crowd who is constantly showing his rear and yelling about every little call, especially when it's against their own.... admit it... You want to pop him in the chops! Instead of giving the kid the props for sweating buckets so his/her kid can play a game... they got to ruin the show....

Bottom line.... Show repect or pony up and volunteer yourself.... Think about it...

[EeveeLover]

Not always is compensation the driving force on people working for a particular TO / PTO. Sometimes it is the people you get to work with.

I paid my own way to Florida for States, just to get to work for the Curry's and all the other Staff that was there. Some (read Most) Judges still do it for the fun involved, not what they get at the end of the event.

[chrataxe]

Just a nobody from nowhere here so this post may not hold much clout... My family hasn't even got to play the game for almost a year. I've read this whole thing from an outsiders point of view. Good Judge/Bad Judge Poke Parent or not... Why aren't the Judges in General getting any praise for giving their time so you people and your family can enjoy the game of Pokemon? Even if they don't know a darn thing about the game -- they are still there, at least pitching in helping the Organizers. Without someone stepping in and tossing their hat in the ring... You don't play! I understand the big business, the worlds trips, yadda-yadda-yadda... But look at this card game for what it is - a good time for family and friends.

Take the NFL out of here --- and insert the teenage umpire doing his/her thing at your kids little league game... The umpire is out there in 90+ degree heat with all the gear on, and yes alot of calls they might make can be described as BRUTAL... There always has to be one Parent in the crowd who is constantly showing his rear and yelling about every little call, especially when it's against their own.... admit it... You want to pop him in the chops! Instead of giving the kid the props for sweating buckets so his/her kid can play a game... they got to ruin the show....

Bottom line.... Show repect or pony up and volunteer yourself.... Think about it...

I think you missed something. There is plenty of props given to the staff. By your logic, it would be perfectly acceptable for Pokemon to market their product like this: "Come buy our cards! We do have organized play...and, well, there are rules, but we don't necessarily have to follow them, do we? Just remember, this IS a family game (for kids), so don't take your time or money (that you give us) seriously!" I mean, really, you completely ignore about half of the player base by saying "I dunerstand the big business, the worlds trips, yadda-yadda." Call me crazy, but if THOSE players that DO care about that stuff didn't play, I doubt there would be any kind of support because there would be NO pressure for it, everyone would be content to "play for fun." I have a two year old. I play with him for fun. When I want a good competition, I play pokemon. Some of us thrive on that competition. For you to imply that we should not be allowed to have it because "its a game?" I find THAT insulting.

I'll say again, players don't play so judges can judge, judges judge so players can play. If a judge doesn't know the rules, then the players aren't getting to play (farily). If there is a HORRIBLE ump, yes, something SHOULD be done about it. Bringing the NFL back into it, I remember watching a game a few years ago where the game was stopped for like 20 minutes while the officials consulted the "official rules committee" or whatever. The gist of it was that the refs didn't know what to do, they got clarification, then proceeded. That is all rokman is asking. Similarly, lets look at a couple of horrible calls we have seen in the NFL and think about how negatively they affected the game:

The tuck rule. Only cost Oakland the AFC championship, no big deal, right? The Raiders and Raider fans should be thankful they had a reffing staff, right? Oh, and they should remember, its just a game. So, what was the consequences of that? Did they just say "be happy you had refs, we stand by them?" Of course not. They went back and clearly redefined the rules as to try and ensure it never happened again.

The botched coin between Detroit and Pittsburgh on thanksgiving. Jerome Bettis: "Heads." Ref:"You call tails, its heads, Detroit, what do you want to do?" So, its no big deal, right? Its just a game, be thankful they had refs, right?

So, if Pokemon let instances of that caliber go unchecked, it should be ok, right? A judge is defined as: a person who is appointed to determine the result of contests or competitions. So, are we, the players, supposed to believe that it is OK to have the judges, the people determining the outcome, have no clue about the rules or the cards in the game? That's like the equivalent of say "It doesn't matter if the ref knows what a first down is" or "Well, the ump doesn't have to know where the strike zone is" or "It doesn't matter the ball came out of his hand after the buzzer, the ref didn't know that he had to shoot before the buzzer." That premise is ridiculous!

Another common theme I see in here is implying that the players are "bad" or that they don't know the rules. Fair enough. But, when is the last time we asked a judge this: "JUDGE!!! Hey, so, I'm obviously playing the mirror. He's collectored for two Garchomps and a Dragonite. As you can see, I have a pretty bad hand, what should my strategy be?" THAT is what the player is worried about. The judges have the luxury of not having to deal with the thought process of playing the game. As such, I think it is 100% the judges responsibility to know the rules...and yes, the players SHOULD, though I don't think it is a necessity, just like I think judges SHOULD understand strategy, but shouldn't it is a necessity.

I think its obvious that Rokman isn't attacking all judges, yet most seemed to be offended. Judges, remember this: its the PLAYERS experiences that determine how well you judge, not YOUR opinion of how well you THINK you did. If you feel like you've been attacked, its probably warranted. If you have received nothing but praise and its OBVIOUS he isn't talking to you, quit acting like there aren't bad judges out there. We all know there are and we all know its part of the game. Just as much as ya'll have to right to blindly defend them, he has the right to complain about them.

And, for what its worth (and yes, it does ALWAYS happen), go read some reports coming from States, there are a lot of disgruntled players. Like I said, THAT is how players perceive judges, regardless of how judges feel about themselves.

[NoPoke]

I did not switch to judging so that I could be a judge. I am like many who switched to judging because as a player I was unhappy with the standard of judging at tournaments I attended.

I agree that players don't play in order to provide an opportunity for judges to judge. If the players didn't make mistakes and knew as much as they often claim after the fact there would be no need for judges at all.

Once again I'll say that I agree that there are bad judges out there. But broad brush attacks on the general population of judges will DO NOTHING to fix the issue.

[Cyrus]

Not always is compensation the driving force on people working for a particular TO / PTO. Sometimes it is the people you get to work with.

I paid my own way to Florida for States, just to get to work for the Curry's and all the other Staff that was there. Some (read Most) Judges still do it for the fun involved, not what they get at the end of the event.

Nice to hear judges out there do those sorts of things. IIRC, you've done the same for Cook, haven't you?

Anyways, the compensation argument doesn't operate on the principle that compensation is always the driving force. Compensation is just one huge reason why people might pursue something, and the more applicants the PTO hears from, the greater the odds are that a staff dream team could be organized.

There are lots of motivations to judge: liking to work with people; liking to do it for its own sake; trying to find a way to make up for tournament performance; profit; trying to fix a broken system. But as I see it, the volunteer system as it stands does very little to ensure quality - certainly not as well as the employer/employee relationship.

[EeveeLover]

Yes, I have done this for Cook.

3 of my 4 Worlds trips, as well as New Mexico States the last 3 years.

On the flip side of the compensation coin, yes you might get more people wanting to work, but you will also get more that are just in it for the perks.

[Cyrus]

Does it matter the motivation, so long as the quality is top notch?

As a player, I'd rather have a selfish judge who's top notch at doing his/her duties than a selfless judge who's anything less. I'd especially prefer this sort of "in-it-for-the-money" type over one of the poor judges that OP bemoans.

Plus, it's the PTO's job to ultimately vet out good apples from bad apples. If the PTO's pool is larger to choose from, then I (generally) expect only good to result from it.

[ShuckleLVX]

Nice to hear judges out there do those sorts of things. IIRC, you've done the same for Cook, haven't you?

Anyways, the compensation argument doesn't operate on the principle that compensation is always the driving force. Compensation is just one huge reason why people might pursue something, and the more applicants the PTO hears from, the greater the odds are that a staff dream team could be organized.

There are lots of motivations to judge: liking to work with people; liking to do it for its own sake; trying to find a way to make up for tournament performance; profit; trying to fix a broken system. But as I see it, the volunteer system as it stands does very little to ensure quality - certainly not as well as the employer/employee relationship.

My issue with adding comp to create a dream team is that by adding comp, you will get more people.... who are interested in comp. The folks that would be best suited to a dream team are the ones who will do it, comp or no.

[EeveeLover]

PTO's do go out of their way to get the so called Cream of the Crop in Judging.

Things were easier when we had 4 days to run States, as both players and Judges could travel to more events.

Now, many Judges are willing to travel. However, they still feel loyalty to their home state.

I traveled to New Mexico and Florida this year, missing my own state of Colorado.

Also, some of the top judges are also PTO's that run the events, so that futher depletes the Cream of the Crop available.

Sometimes, a PTO has to work with who is available. They will have to put less experienced Judges with stronger Judges and hope it balances out.

In most cases it does, but sometimes it does not.

[NoPoke]

Does it matter the motivation, so long as the quality is top notch?

As a player, I'd rather have a selfish judge who's top notch at doing his/her duties than a selfless judge who's anything less. I'd especially prefer this sort of "in-it-for-the-money" type over one of the poor judges that OP bemoans.

Plus, it's the PTO's job to ultimately vet out good apples from bad apples. If the PTO's pool is larger to choose from, then I (generally) expect only good to result from it.

Every part of that is true. True given the premise that selfish judges will work hard to become top-notch. But what if that premise is not true and that the pool of judges that work hard to become top notch are not primarily in-it-for-me types? Worse, I have no idea how pokemon could actually pay the selfish judges sufficient to compensate for the time and effort that it takes to be one of your top notch judges.

For the most part compensation has to be there to ensure that judges can actually afford to judge in the first place. What this means in practice is that there has to be a local judge pool to call upon and it is that absence that results in inexperienced judges and the mistakes that follow. So if your event suffers from poor judging then look to the quality and availability of your local judges.

[Cyrus]

NoPoke: You raise a good point about the sufficiency of payment, and that's honestly an answer I won't offer specifics to. But I do hold to the general claim that the higher the pay/compensation, the more likely you are to receive applicants who will do their best. There comes a point when you "evolve" (devolve to some) from being a volunteer in it for the community, to being an agent to a principle; you hold a higher level of duty because you're no longer doing it solely out of good will, but to please a boss.

As for your statement about the premise - I think it goes back to the smarts of the PTO. Even if the best are usually not in-it-for-me types, there are several top-notch judges you could attract that "would" at least somewhat qualify under that.

(Of course, you'd likely get several useless people applying who never would have due to the incentive, but I think that's a marginal issue, since a decent PTO's vetting process ought to allow for swift elimination of those types.)

As for ShuckleLVX, just because competition for spots exists doesn't mean that synergy can't also exist. There could be a very competitive pool applying to judge a large scale event, but that doesn't mean that you'll produce a disagreeable team in the least.

Eeveelover: I'm not operating on the assumption that PTOs don't do that; quite the contrary, since I've been working on the assumption that they "do" look for the best they can. My interest, though, is in giving them stronger people to work with. I don't want a PTO to have to compromise, "work with who is available," and choose someone with a high probability of screwing up an event - I want a PTO to receive the best applicants.

[Rogue Archetype]

NoPoke: You raise a good point about the sufficiency of payment, and that's honestly an answer I won't offer specifics to. But I do hold to the general claim that the higher the pay/compensation, the more likely you are to receive applicants who will do their best. There comes a point when you "evolve" (devolve to some) from being a volunteer in it for the community, to being an agent to a principle; you hold a higher level of duty because you're no longer doing it solely out of good will, but to please a boss.

I simply do not agree with this.

Frankly, I wouldn't want to create an atmosphere where people are contracted into adjudication.
People who are motivated by monitary incentives have less concern for the participant; they are more concerned with appearing to offer services well enough to hold down the gig.

What's amazing to me is the CONNOTATION that seems to be placed on the word "PokeParent."

What is this ... image that people are getting/associating with the word "PokeParent"???

Let's just kick around some hypotheticals here:

Let's say that there's a 20 yr old somebody (we'll call him "Buckwheat") that we've agreed to pay $50 for every CC he judges. Buckwheat is a college sophomore in a junior college. Buckwheat knows the compendium well and stays updated by reviewing the "Ask the Rules Team" forum on a daily basis. So, Buckwheat is prepared to make judgment calls on the gamestate of a game. Buckwheat doesn't like small children.

Meanwhile, you have someone like LAWMAN (who's contributed to this thread) who is just a loving parent who want to make sure the game is fair. Lawman is an actual attourney who hold more than one college degree and has a brilliant mind. Lawman will work for peanuts just as long as he's supporting his kid.

Is one any better than the other?


Some of our "PokeParents" are doctors, lawyers, politicians, school teachers, accountants, etc.

Think on that.

[SteveP]

I'm of the opinion that compensation tends to create a sense of "obligation" to perform well. Many occupations compensate based on performance. I'm not sure if judging Pokemon can support a performance-based compensation model (for example, what are the performance metrics?), but in a sense, I think it already does. Because the Professor pool is bigger than the available judging slots, the better-performing judges "should" be the ones that are working more regularly. Like many things in life, politics come into play when PTOs/TPCi choose staff, but I see favoritism as more of a tiebreaker between nearly-identical applicants rather than an outright determiner.

One of the bigger attributes when hiring someone for a position is their social skills (ie., how well do they fit into the group?, do they interact well with others?, do they have a pleasent appearance?). Sometimes, your skill-set can be trumped by "other" things. Knowing the rules is certainly important, but if you don't "fit the mold" of a Pokemon judge in other areas, your chances of getting hired could be greatly reduced.

[ShuckleLVX]

One of the bigger attributes when hiring someone for a position is their social skills (ie., how well do they fit into the group?, do they interact well with others?, do they have a pleasent appearance?). Sometimes, your skill-set can be trumped by "other" things. Knowing the rules is certainly important, but if you don't "fit the mold" of a Pokemon judge in other areas, your chances of getting hired could be greatly reduced.

Maybe I should read more into the fact that I started Judging more after I chopped my hair off then *shifty eyes*

(Just a funny observation, not necessarily a topic for discussion ^_-)

[Cyrus]

I simply do not agree with this.

Frankly, I wouldn't want to create an atmosphere where people are contracted into adjudication.
People who are motivated by monitary incentives have less concern for the participant; they are more concerned with appearing to offer services well enough to hold down the gig.

What's amazing to me is the CONNOTATION that seems to be placed on the word "PokeParent."

What is this ... image that people are getting/associating with the word "PokeParent"???

Let's just kick around some hypotheticals here:

Let's say that there's a 20 yr old somebody (we'll call him "Buckwheat") that we've agreed to pay $50 for every CC he judges. Buckwheat is a college sophomore in a junior college. Buckwheat knows the compendium well and stays updated by reviewing the "Ask the Rules Team" forum on a daily basis. So, Buckwheat is prepared to make judgment calls on the gamestate of a game. Buckwheat doesn't like small children.

Meanwhile, you have someone like LAWMAN (who's contributed to this thread) who is just a loving parent who want to make sure the game is fair. Lawman is an actual attourney who hold more than one college degree and has a brilliant mind. Lawman will work for peanuts just as long as he's supporting his kid.

Is one any better than the other?


Some of our "PokeParents" are doctors, lawyers, politicians, school teachers, accountants, etc.

Think on that.

"More likely" =/= a sweeping generalization, which is what you suggest I made. I don't say that it WILL happen; I say that it is MORE likely to happen.

I have no doubt that Lawman would be better than Buckwheat, but I am convinced that pay would bring in a more diverse (good diverse) applicant pool, and would give PTOs more choices than to just go with the Pokeparent who knows next to nothing about the game, and next to nothing about how to judge. It's happened so many times across the country I couldn't hope to count it on all fingers and toes.

But let's mix up your hypothetical a bit. Say we have Lawman, Buckwheat who dislikes children, and two clueless, bad judges who love children. You can only pick two judges...Who do you choose?

I would sure as heck hope you'd choose Lawman and Buckwheat over Lawman and one of the bad judges. Buckwheat's dislike for children can be dealt with prior to an event, but it takes a long time to fix a bad judge.

[Lawman]

@R_A: Thx for the love! (The thanks button wasnt there for me...why is that mods?? Some threads I see thanks, others I dont)

The issue of compensation is a funny one. IMO, Staff (not just judges) ought to be compensated for the time they give to the game. They are missing out on the playing aspect, which is a ton of fun. The Judges sometimes have to make calls that affect games.

For what it is worth, I like the comp schedule that most PTOs use. I appreciate what TPCi and P!P does for the staff they bring in for Nats and Worlds. For those that think we have it made, trust me, follow us around one time, volunteering your time and your chance to play to help the event go. You are worn out at the end of the main days. Topcuts are better days bc we get to sit more. BUT, the stakes are higher to make sure you catch any error and then put the correct fix to it!

Keith

[MrMeches]

@R_A: Thx for the love! (The thanks button wasnt there for me...why is that mods?? Some threads I see thanks, others I dont)

The issue of compensation is a funny one. IMO, Staff (not just judges) ought to be compensated for the time they give to the game. They are missing out on the playing aspect, which is a ton of fun. The Judges sometimes have to make calls that affect games.

For what it is worth, I like the comp schedule that most PTOs use. I appreciate what TPCi and P!P does for the staff they bring in for Nats and Worlds. For those that think we have it made, trust me, follow us around one time, volunteering your time and your chance to play to help the event go. You are worn out at the end of the main days. Topcuts are better days bc we get to sit more. BUT, the stakes are higher to make sure you catch any error and then put the correct fix to it!

Keith

You only get so many thanks for the day. Once you have used them all, it goes away.

[PokePop]

Buckwheat's dislike for children can be dealt with prior to an event, but it takes a long time to fix a bad judge.

Mmmmmmmm.

I don't know about that!
Why are these particular judges "bad judges"?
Are they bad because of lack of knowledge or a deeper reason?
How long have they been working and are they capable of progress?

I'd rather have someone on staff that needs assistance making a correct ruling than a staffer that is going to drive away my players, especially the young age group which is more sensitive to issues and more likely to not come back if they have a bad experience with staff.

You're not talking about hypotheticals with this. These are exactly the kinds of trade offs that PTOs do have to make when staffing events!

[Cyrus]

...Which makes this discussion all the more interesting!

Yeah, I guess I'll concede that the "why" for a judge being bad is a variable thing - fair point.

I don't know if you're "I would rather..." is referring to the hypothetical still or not, but R_A didn't say that he'd "drive off" players. Just because he doesn't like children doesn't mean that he'd be unprofessional, nasty, or snarky...It just means that he doesn't like kids.

There's no question that Buckwheat is a good judge in all judge-y aspects; the question is if there's a place for him. In my revamped hypo, there is (albeit under the assumption that what makes the other judges "bad" can't be fixed in time).

But have some considered that with the bigger applicant pool, some in-it-for-the-money types would also be good with children?

[MrMeches]

It doesn't take a long time to fix a 'Bad' Judge. It takes a more experienced, good Judge *WILLING* to help the bad judge become better. Any bad judge can be assisted down the right path, as long as they are willing to learn. That is why it is important for Higher Tier Judges to share their knowledge of the Game and also of the Players within the Game.

The Seminar is the best method, as well as providing insights and experiences. This is why some are beginning to do this within their areas. One occurred in NTX as your aware of, and it was full of discussion and direction that I believe benefited all that attended.

The Main thing I think these 'Bad' Judges do is what 'pop eluded too.. they do not seek the assistance and feel they know everything. There is a reason P!P has Judging TEAMS at Nats and Worlds with full ranges of experience and characteristics. Some are solid on delivering Rulings to those that have earned them. Some are strong with Big Personalities. Some are Strong with Knowledge of the Game. If Judges come together and find their strengths and weaknesses, this allows for a more successful event.

Fish

[PokePop]

...Which makes this discussion all the more interesting!

Yeah, I guess I'll concede that the "why" for a judge being bad is a variable thing - fair point.

I don't know if you're "I would rather..." is referring to the hypothetical still or not, but R_A didn't say that he'd "drive off" players. Just because he doesn't like children doesn't mean that he'd be unprofessional, nasty, or snarky...It just means that he doesn't like kids.

There's no question that Buckwheat is a good judge in all judge-y aspects; the question is if there's a place for him. In my revamped hypo, there is (albeit under the assumption that what makes the other judges "bad" can't be fixed in time).

But have some considered that with the bigger applicant pool, some in-it-for-the-money types would also be good with children?

Well, to me, it seems that the only way that I'd know that he doesn't like children is that he has exhibited the dislike. Kids pick up on that.

If he doesn't exhibit any evidence of his dislike, then it is a non-issue and why am I considering it? The fact that it's brought up as an issue means that it is having an impact.

If the other judges are bad in ways that they're not willing to fix (all things are fixable if the person is willing), then I wouldn't use them. I have no use for people that aren't willing to improve.

So, then I'd have Buckwheat work Masters.

As for bigger compensation, I vote for it.
But I'd also vote for a $20 minimum wage.
Doesn't mean that we're going to get either one of those.
Pokemon's budget is tight. If they increase judge comp, the money for that is going to come from somewhere else.
That somewhere else is from the number of events that they allow PTO's to run.

So, the choice is more comp for judges and fewer BRs, Cities and PRs.
Or the current comp for judges and more of those events.
Which do you choose, since we're playing the "choosing game"?

This is also a real life choice. You don't get something without if affecting something else.

[Cyrus]

Fish: the seminar was definitely some solid work - making new judges good, and good judges better is definitely an easy way to solve the "I know everything" without damaging egos or stepping on toes.

Pokepop: The fact that it's being brought up as an issue means nothing other than that it's a piece of R_A's hypo. We haven't extended the hypo into "Buckwheat acts snarky, mean, and cruel to children half his height." :biggrin:

Yeah, it's true that -as things stand right now - there'd be a tradeoff. But this thread is more of a "how should things be?" than a "how are they?" Sure, you need a dose of realism, but an increased budget - at first glance -seems realistic to me, as does better compensation. At least it's a realistic thing for us customers to demand...Although there's no guarantee we'd get it. Lol.

[PokePop]

Cyrus: I disagree. If I, as a TO, am aware that he doesn't like kids, then that means that I became aware of it somehow. I doubt Buckwheat came up to me and said "Can I be a judge? By the way, I hate kids".
I'm aware of it because it has affected his performance somehow. Otherwise the point wouldn't be here to consider. Are you saying its a red herring?

I expect that POP would welcome a popular uprising from the players demanding that TPCi increase POP's budget!
Can you imagine them not liking that???

So, here's how to do that. players would need to document how much Pokemon TCG product they consume each year.
Collecting that data to show TPCi that in fact the players do contribute a lot to their bottom line and that not all of the packs are purchased by little Timmy's Aunt Tilly and stuck in a shoebox never to show up at a tournament or league.

We'd be happy to compile the data here.
Then, armed with that, a combined request for stronger funding of OP might have a chance of being heard.

[PokeMedic]

We'd be happy to compile the data here.
Then, armed with that, a combined request for stronger funding of OP might have a chance of being heard.

That's a good idea. But will anyone contribute to the effort? Not seriously asking that, just upping the ante.

[EeveeLover]

^^ I certainly would contribute info.

[Cyrus]

Cyrus: I disagree. If I, as a TO, am aware that he doesn't like kids, then that means that I became aware of it somehow. I doubt Buckwheat came up to me and said "Can I be a judge? By the way, I hate kids".
I'm aware of it because it has affected his performance somehow. Otherwise the point wouldn't be here to consider. Are you saying its a red herring?

I expect that POP would welcome a popular uprising from the players demanding that TPCi increase POP's budget!
Can you imagine them not liking that???

So, here's how to do that. players would need to document how much Pokemon TCG product they consume each year.
Collecting that data to show TPCi that in fact the players do contribute a lot to their bottom line and that not all of the packs are purchased by little Timmy's Aunt Tilly and stuck in a shoebox never to show up at a tournament or league.

We'd be happy to compile the data here.
Then, armed with that, a combined request for stronger funding of OP might have a chance of being heard.

Yeah, it'd a red herring: does not like =/= hates. You can not like something or someone (or even whole groups of "someones"), but tolerate it in a professional, respectful manner. I think the "why" to Buckwheat not liking kids is just as important as the "why" to a judge being bad - that is, some "why's" will be more maladaptive than others, in which case we get into an interpersonal flaw that goes beyond merely disliking children.


Also, I'd be more than happy to contribute info to this. The only problem is that we don't know their budget - what'd be a good way to go about requesting an increase in a budget if the budget's quantity is unknown? Simply establish that the money they're currently investing is upping sales, and that more money would do more good?

[PokePop]

It's not for you to call it a Red Herring Cyrus. It's RA's hypothetical.
Rogue: Is it a red herring, or how do we know that Buckwheat dislikes kids?

[Rogue Archetype]

It's not for you to call it a Red Herring Cyrus. It's RA's hypothetical.
Rogue: Is it a red herring, or how do we know that Buckwheat dislikes kids?

If you want to go down that path, I'll offer up clarity for the hypothetical.. lol

Buckwheat actually says "I can't stand kids. Just let me judge the masters." When addressed by children with questions, he has a demeanor that shows that he's disinterested and is simply 'tolerating' them. He has sense enough not to snap at them. When offering up explanations, he doesn't break down his vocabulary and doesn't really communicate in a manner that is well understood by children.

There's your profile :)

Ya'll have fun. :smile:

The POINT really is...

There's nothing wrong with "PokeParents" as they are the 'adults' in the room that are responsible enough to want to be in the room helping in any way they can.

One of my FAVORITE pieces to come out of this, however, is the issue of APTITUDE.

I suppose what's really beneath the surface is the fact that some people just ain't smart. :cool:

So, we have some parents that are very intelligent and capable of understanding mechanics (and how rulings apply to them), and others who try very hard but just don't have it in themselves to be much help to the situation. :redface:

I would argue that this pheonomina would apply to ANY pool of candidates whether they are paid are not (regardless of amount of compensation). I would argue that tossing the monkey wrench of cash incentives would only widen the pool of incompetant (and otherwise indifferent) applicants.

If I were the guy in charge of all things Organized TCG, I'd simply take a more corporate approach and have professional development meetings.

In government, we meet and get briefed about things.
We also attend conferences to get updated on specific areas of interest/concern.

In education, we meet and discuss things.
We, also, have meetings and inservice conferences that get us up-to-speed on best practices in pedagogy.

I've often served on the Council of Review for professional organizations.
We are PAID to sit and engage in comprehensive planning of large events.

So, my "solution" would NOT be to simply pay the judges.

I would offer a suggestion of paying judges to meet!

Before a season (BRs, CC, States, or Regionals), the PTO should be given an expense allotment to meet with all of his judges from the upcoming season. This could be done at a popular casual eatery like Panera Bread Co.. At this gathering, the personnel can discuss, plan, and troubleshoot in an effort to get completely on the same page before the event. New judges can be afforded an opporutnity to ask the 'embarrasing' questions and experienced judges can render suggestions/comments about previous events.

Attendees would be paid milage to and from the meeting place and receive a free meal.

A simple meeting can work wonders for staff cohesiveness and can lead to a hightened level of consistency across the board.

If I were a PTO, I'd probably approach a season like this regardless of funding.

[Benzo]

^Breaking it down in a manner like that is very idealistic, and even achievable. I would like to see this become a reality.

[Cyrus]

Wow R_A, I don't know if you're just conglomerating all of the different things mentioned in this thread thus far, but either way, I LIKE it! :thumb:

Expanding the seminar system to a national/global scale would be awesome. Many thumbs up, sir.

[SteveP]

Back when I was judging events, every PTO I worked for had a 2-3 hour staff meeting before the event - usually the night before. We didn't spend the whole time going over rulings, but we did spend time discussing some of the more recent rulings and changes.

Just like a classroom doesn't guarantee that all the students will get A's, likewise, a seminar is not going to guarantee that all judges will "get smart." Nevertheless, you can generalize that the judges will become better, which is really what we're after here.

Regarding judges who dislike working with little kids, I'd say "go find another place to judge." There will always be judges that prefer working with the older players, but judges who are incapable of working with little kids should not be hired, or they seriously need to be retrained.

[meganium45]

One of the major problems is that PTOs, like any other position, have strengths and weaknesses.

One of the HARDEST things to do is to make sure an event is properly staffed.

In my opinion, I would rather have a judge good with kids, and good with people and not as strong on rulings, and not a judge that is VERY good on rulings but horrible with kids and people.

All of my judges know that when in doubt, get help from a "teammate". We would rather take 5 minutes and confirm that metal energy reduces damage by 10 after weakness (or before, or whatever, alluding to a problem that we had years ago) to answer a concern, then to simply assume the answer when a player raises the issue.

I won't tolerate rude judges on my staff. I don't care how well you know the rules, and what you got on your professor test. I will take a good people person who is a non-professor over a professor who can't work well with others.

Oh, and you aren't 18? Not a problem in my gyms. I anticipate having a 9 year old judge at the Battle Roads, just about every one of them. Done it before, and given his play skill, no doubt as to his ability. He will make his rulings clear, and will tell EVERY player they can appeal the ruling is they would like to speak to the head judge to confirm it is fine, and he will confer with other judges if he is not sure.

Get a 1880 rating and then you can qualify to be a 9 year old judge too! LOL Just be good on the rules and with people.

Oh, and I am PROUD to say my judges at Regionals are being compensated with product and comp they will actually enjoy. You have to pay a little more to get the better judges.

Vince

[Lawman]

^You making BBQ again Vince ;)

Keith

[SteveP]

I worked for Vince once. It was one of my favorite times ever, except for the Texas heat.:thumb:

A 9-year old judge? Must be a whiz-kid!

[Cyrus]

One of the major problems is that PTOs, like any other position, have strengths and weaknesses.

One of the HARDEST things to do is to make sure an event is properly staffed.

In my opinion, I would rather have a judge good with kids, and good with people and not as strong on rulings, and not a judge that is VERY good on rulings but horrible with kids and people.

All of my judges know that when in doubt, get help from a "teammate". We would rather take 5 minutes and confirm that metal energy reduces damage by 10 after weakness (or before, or whatever, alluding to a problem that we had years ago) to answer a concern, then to simply assume the answer when a player raises the issue.

I won't tolerate rude judges on my staff. I don't care how well you know the rules, and what you got on your professor test. I will take a good people person who is a non-professor over a professor who can't work well with others.

Oh, and you aren't 18? Not a problem in my gyms. I anticipate having a 9 year old judge at the Battle Roads, just about every one of them. Done it before, and given his play skill, no doubt as to his ability. He will make his rulings clear, and will tell EVERY player they can appeal the ruling is they would like to speak to the head judge to confirm it is fine, and he will confer with other judges if he is not sure.

Get a 1880 rating and then you can qualify to be a 9 year old judge too! LOL Just be good on the rules and with people.

Oh, and I am PROUD to say my judges at Regionals are being compensated with product and comp they will actually enjoy. You have to pay a little more to get the better judges.

Vince

Having seen your wide assortment of elite staff in action, I can safely say that you're not lacking too terribly in top tier people. However, as PTO, if you did have a lack in good staff, then would you at least value a wider range of applicants?

("More" is a two-way street: more 'good' applicants and more 'bad' applicants.)

[meganium45]

Heck yes, and staff turns over. I am not using the same staff now that I did in 2004-5. They have all moved on and grown up, and may come back as parents one day.

The TOUGHEST job that a PTO has to do is maintain quality staff.

I give major props to any PTO who has been able to attract and retain great staffs over the years, and really have to compliment the staff that have stayed for a long time.

Do you know who those long term staffers are, a lot of them? Parents.

Some of them aren't, but a great deal of the non-PTO top tier judges are parents.

Gotta call one out - my friend from the East - Steve Arena - :biggrin:

The man single handedly taught me that there is more than one way to be right, a lesson I will always be thankful for.

Gotta call another one out - from my own backyard - Mike Copper - who has gone from a weak judge who was unsure of himself to one of the best HJs any PTO could EVER have. :thumb:

I look around the room at our PTO conference every year, and am amazed not at the new faces, but at those of us who have BEEN THERE since the beginning. Trust me, it is a love of the game.

Why am I saying this (other than to shout out a few props)?

I am saying this to give you a peek behind the curtain, and ask that instead of ranting about judges, if there is a problem, talk to your local PTO. We ALL take great pride in our events, and want to put top quality products out there for you players. Discussions done locally make a difference.

See you all in St. Louis in a few weeks. You know you wanna play some dodgeball!

Vince