RIP Durant (after Spring Regionals) [Archive]

JandPDS

12/14/2011, 09:39 PM

Hey if everyone who is playing durrant now please bow your heads for a moment of scilence. Durant as a deck will only be viable until Spring Regionals. Then the next set sould give us the Heatmore that will be teched into every Deck to destroy Durant.

So enjoy the fun wile it lasts it will come to an end soon. (translation courtesy of Pokebeach) And this is the attack that will signal the end of the milling
[C] Hot Tongue: 10 damage. If the opponent’s Active Pokemon is Durant, this attack does an additional 50 damage.

untitled

12/14/2011, 09:42 PM

I for one won't even consider playing Heatmor. Durant is just a troll deck. It's good, but the best players avoid it, and most decks can beat is by a reasonable margin with or without the Heatmor. Heatmor is a stupid and useless card outside of one matchup that isn't even popular. It's just a waste of deck space.

All that's going to happen is Durant will get trolled on occasion. It's not going to wreck the deck.

Miamisportsfan45

12/14/2011, 09:42 PM

It would be a waste of a tech. The simple route to beating Durant is free retreat and one heavy hitter - or just having one Pokemon out as your only active Pokemon. That's it.

JandPDS

12/14/2011, 09:45 PM

It would be a waste of a tech. The simple route to beating Durant is free retreat and one heavy hitter - or just having one Pokemon out as your only active Pokemon. That's it.

That fails just ask my opponenets. I dont think I can I can play around through this. and as it is a colorless attack it can be in any deck. Guess I will start playing Darkria EX when this set comes out.

Miamisportsfan45

12/14/2011, 09:49 PM

JandPDS

12/14/2011, 10:01 PM

It hasn't quite failed for me yet. You just need to get a turn 2 stage 1 out or a heavy hitting basic (and I mean for about 100 or more) or if you have a Pokemon with free retreat on your bench so that if you get Catcher'd you can just retreat for free. The trick is to be able to one shot Durant every turn. Heatmor isn't really necessary. As untitled and I have both stated above; it only takes up deck space.

Yea your struggle to set up a heavy hitter and then I erase your heavy hitter in one turn and go back to milling while you try to build annother. The only real issue for Durrant decks are pure fire decks or Decks full with heavy basic Like ZPST where when you cant erase the attackers faster then they can set them up. But most other deck really do not give durrant a problem. But this Heatmore ... I can not think of a good way to solve it.

Regis_Neo

12/14/2011, 11:44 PM

There would be an irony if Heatmor was the answer...you know, anteater, ants, lol...

Shino Bug Master

12/14/2011, 11:47 PM

What this card does is discourage Durant play more so than counter it. Why would you play an already luck reliant deck when someone can search this thing out and end your day? If Durant would remain popular (which couldve happend as it does well enough vs Mewtwo) this card just kicks it int he rear a little harder.

Sapphire Birch

12/15/2011, 09:45 AM

Yea your struggle to set up a heavy hitter and then I erase your heavy hitter in one turn and go back to milling while you try to build annother. The only real issue for Durrant decks are pure fire decks or Decks full with heavy basic Like ZPST where when you cant erase the attackers faster then they can set them up. But most other deck really do not give durrant a problem. But this Heatmore ... I can not think of a good way to solve it.

erase heavy hitters? lolwat how so?

Miamisportsfan45

12/15/2011, 09:49 AM

erase heavy hitters? lolwat how so?

That's what I was thinking lol.

In my experiences as of recently, I haven't struggled against Durant yet.

You get a Zekrom out, three lightning and Bolt, Bolt, Outrage, Outrage, Outrage. Hammer Arm does nothing. Catcher does nothing if you have a free retreat on your bench or if Zekrom is your only active.

Is he planning on Catchering me and using Seeker or something?

Electric Spider

12/15/2011, 02:18 PM

That's what I was thinking lol.

In my experiences as of recently, I haven't struggled against Durant yet.

You get a Zekrom out, three lightning and Bolt, Bolt, Outrage, Outrage, Outrage. Hammer Arm does nothing. Catcher does nothing if you have a free retreat on your bench or if Zekrom is your only active.

Is he planning on Catchering me and using Seeker or something?

I tried that during a Cities match with my Zekrom. You know what my opponent did? Dropped a rainbow on his Rotom and KOed my Zekrom. I did have a cleffa on the bench, but as I struggled to set up another attacker, Durant just devoured away.

PokePop

12/15/2011, 03:18 PM

You all just haven't been playing against good Durant decks, have you?
Wow.

untitled

12/15/2011, 03:37 PM

Come on, guys. He's talking about using Drifblim or Cobalion to "erase" it.

gallade

12/15/2011, 03:38 PM

And I thought that pokepop would be the last person on this earth to make such a terrible post :nonono:

dreamdemon

12/15/2011, 03:58 PM

That's the dumbest attack I have ever heard of.
Posted with Mobile style...

evil psyduck

12/15/2011, 05:03 PM

And I thought that pokepop would be the last person on this earth to make such a terrible post :nonono:

He only speaks the truth.

FMaholic

12/15/2011, 06:12 PM

You all just haven't been playing against good Durant decks, have you?
Wow.

1: "Good"
2: "Durant deck"

Choose one.

mudkipmaster

12/15/2011, 07:01 PM

1: "Good"
2: "Durant deck"

Choose one.

Define "good" please. Not everyone thinks the same deck is "good". So what makes a deck "good"?

FMaholic

12/15/2011, 07:31 PM

Define "good" please. Not everyone thinks the same deck is "good". So what makes a deck "good"?

Please do not give me the arduous task of giving an objective definition to something so subjective as "good".

It's subjective, your own definition is as good as anyone's, so why ask me?

PokePop

12/15/2011, 08:40 PM

1: "Good"
2: "Durant deck"

Choose one.

Jimmy O'Brien thought my Durant deck was "very legit".

mudkipmaster

12/15/2011, 08:58 PM

Please do not give me the arduous task of giving an objective definition to something so subjective as "good".

It's subjective, your own definition is as good as anyone's, so why ask me?

Sorry, just getting sick of people knocking decks I meant no disrespect

Miamisportsfan45

12/15/2011, 09:15 PM

I've experienced the Driftblim setup recently. It works well, but again, against quickly set up decks, it only works in the right scenario.

gallade

12/15/2011, 09:27 PM

He only speaks the truth.

What you view as the 'truth' does not equal a helpful post, even if it is true. I can say true statements all day and I won't help one person out in testing against durant.

Strawberry is a berry.
Tomato is a fruit.
Durant is modeled after the common ant.
Pizza is a vegetable.

JandPDS

12/15/2011, 09:52 PM

Define "good" please. Not everyone thinks the same deck is "good". So what makes a deck "good"?

How about it wins most of the time and it OWNS The Truth decks. I would say that makes a deck good.

Rambo

12/16/2011, 06:15 AM

Why does everyone assume that when making a deck all of the cards in the deck should be used against every matchup? The idea of a tech is so that you only have to use it against a certain matchup and therefore shouldn't be played down every game. Durant doesn't need to use Drifblim in every matchup all the time, against most decks there's little point. That's like saying you shouldn't use Zekrom in ZPST because sometimes your opponent plays fighting decks.

homeofmew

12/16/2011, 06:44 AM

If you are playing someone that is playing Durant, which is a deck now, but it's not popular enough even now to play it. Nice VS Durant Deck though.

FMaholic

12/16/2011, 08:29 AM

He only speaks the truth.

"onlh speaks the truth'
"speaks the truth"
"the truth"

Ross Deck is the key to beatinh Durant everytime, how dix nobody elde catch this?
Posted with Mobile style...

Rambo

12/16/2011, 08:52 AM

"onlh speaks the truth'
"speaks the truth"
"the truth"

Ross Deck is the key to beatinh Durant everytime, how dix nobody elde catch this?
Posted with Mobile style...

What terrible Durant decks have you played?

Muk Man

12/16/2011, 09:05 AM

durrant runs black belt so if you have only 1 zekrom in play and you bolt twice... GG oh and durrant is a very good deck... ive seen some crushing hammer flips destroy decks

PhadedPhione

12/16/2011, 09:06 AM

Heatmor gives trainer lock deck a chance, assuming any of them can survive Mewtwo EX - e.g. Gothitelle. People will still play Durant. Some people will always love their giant metal ants no matter what.

Jaeger

12/16/2011, 09:22 AM

Jimmy O'Brien thought my Durant deck was "very legit".

Oh Geez Pokepop is name dropping

cpeterik

12/16/2011, 10:28 AM

How about it wins most of the time and it OWNS The Truth decks. I would say that makes a deck good.

Congrats, you can beat the Truth! That... one guy.. still playing the Truth..

You can't argue that Durant is the most luck-based deck in the format. Sure, it beats things, but that is dependent on so many things; coin flips, opening hand, prizes, and most of all, opponent's playing ability. It also loses to things, very badly, like Fire and ZPST. Why would you play a deck that loses to (almost) half the field? No hate on the deck, I think its fun, if not clever, but very gimmicky.

Miamisportsfan45

12/16/2011, 10:41 AM

Congrats, you can beat the Truth! That... one guy.. still playing the Truth..

You can't argue that Durant is the most luck-based deck in the format. Sure, it beats things, but that is dependent on so many things; coin flips, opening hand, prizes, and most of all, opponent's playing ability. It also loses to things, very badly, like Fire and ZPST. Why would you play a deck that loses to (almost) half the field? No hate on the deck, I think its fun, if not clever, but very gimmicky.

I'm glad you said it. The Opening hand. If it's Rotom or Driftloon, they're played down by force which hurt your chances of winning with Durant. Especially if I am familiar with how to play against Durant and therefor did NOT tech in a Heatmor for it. I stand by the fact that it's a waste of deck space and a wasted tech. I don't view Durant as a metagame worthy deck. I view it more as a pest kind of deck that I'd likely play in the first round or two and it feeds off of unaware players or slower paced decks. I have decks that win championships to tech against; Durant isn't one of them.

Rambo

12/16/2011, 10:59 AM

I'm glad you said it. The Opening hand. If it's Rotom or Driftloon, they're played down by force which hurt your chances of winning with Durant. Especially if I am familiar with how to play against Durant and therefor did NOT tech in a Heatmor for it. I stand by the fact that it's a waste of deck space and a wasted tech. I don't view Durant as a metagame worthy deck. I view it more as a pest kind of deck that I'd likely play in the first round or two and it feeds off of unaware players or slower paced decks. I have decks that win championships to tech against; Durant isn't one of them.

You tech against decks that win cities that include Durant but aren't Durant? k.

Miamisportsfan45

12/16/2011, 11:02 AM

You tech against decks that win cities that include Durant but aren't Durant? k.

Durant doesn't win Masters Cities.

Rambo

12/16/2011, 11:09 AM

Durant doesn't win Masters Cities.

I disagree (http://pokegym.net/forums/showthread.php?t=157680)

cabd

12/16/2011, 12:27 PM

Durant doesn't win Masters Cities.

...

Are you ignoring the actual results for your argument? By making such a statement, you're insulting not just everyone playing durant, but everyone in top cut that loses to it too...

Patsfan112892

12/16/2011, 08:16 PM

Oops durant went first and milled ur heatmore and ur super rod is prized now what?
Posted with Mobile style...

griEGO

12/16/2011, 08:16 PM

rayquaza2222

12/17/2011, 10:16 AM

I think R.I.P is not the right title for this. R.I.P should be used when there's a rotation.

Besides, I doubt this will happen.
Posted with Mobile style...

Rambo

12/17/2011, 12:36 PM

I think R.I.P is not the right title for this. R.I.P should be used when there's a rotation.

Besides, I doubt this will happen.
Posted with Mobile style...

You doubt what will happen?

Miamisportsfan45

12/17/2011, 01:39 PM

I disagree (http://pokegym.net/forums/showthread.php?t=157680)
Durant finishing in 4th place kind of impresses me, but that goes without knowing how many players were entered within the tournament, who and what Durant had played throughout, etc. It still hadn't won and if only finished 4th, it obviously only won top cut in one round. I'm not trying to bash on Durant, I just don't think it's competitive enough for this format and I don't feel Heatmor will change that.
...

Are you ignoring the actual results for your argument? By making such a statement, you're insulting not just everyone playing durant, but everyone in top cut that loses to it too...

What results? A fourth place finish in a City Championship as there were hundreds of other Cities ongoing at that same point in time? I'm not insulting anyone who loses to Durant by any means. Durant has it's good matchups; which was the slower paced decks that are effective in the long run. Any mill deck can easily hurt a setup. But decks that run quickly and control their own destiny (for example setting up rapidly) aren't going to get hurt by much milling.

If you can show me a Durant report that actually won a Cities or finished top cut in a larger event, then I'll reconsider but until Durant actually begins to give me problems or until I see a report from a larger event, I'm not going to consider it as a metagame deck.

Dual_Draw

12/17/2011, 01:46 PM

Tash

12/17/2011, 01:59 PM

Oops durant went first and milled ur heatmore and ur super rod is prized now what?
Posted with Mobile style...
You've just got to start killing the things until you draw your Super Rod.

Spidy

12/17/2011, 02:45 PM

how good durant is aside
This reminds me of when everyone said cryogonal would be the end of donphan. but now that its out, ive seen no decks with it. Its just not worth it to run it

now heatmor is a little more splashable, but that doesnt really matter. why? cause by the time we get it we will have a bunch of EX cards to 1hko the little ant with.

psychup2034

12/17/2011, 03:13 PM

What results? A fourth place finish in a City Championship as there were hundreds of other Cities ongoing at that same point in time?

Nope. 3 1st places, 4 2nd places, and 13 3rd/4th places. That's a total of 20 top 4 appearances to date.

For some perspective, Truth has only 17 top 4 appearances to date.

Miamisportsfan45, by answering your question seriously, I'm assuming you're not a troll, which is just silly on my part. Either way, you should learn how to read posts carefully before commenting on them and sounding extremely ignorant. :nonono:

Rambo

12/18/2011, 12:44 AM

Durant finishing in 4th place kind of impresses me, but that goes without knowing how many players were entered within the tournament, who and what Durant had played throughout, etc. It still hadn't won and if only finished 4th, it obviously only won top cut in one round. I'm not trying to bash on Durant, I just don't think it's competitive enough for this format and I don't feel Heatmor will change that.

What results? A fourth place finish in a City Championship as there were hundreds of other Cities ongoing at that same point in time? I'm not insulting anyone who loses to Durant by any means. Durant has it's good matchups; which was the slower paced decks that are effective in the long run. Any mill deck can easily hurt a setup. But decks that run quickly and control their own destiny (for example setting up rapidly) aren't going to get hurt by much milling.

If you can show me a Durant report that actually won a Cities or finished top cut in a larger event, then I'll reconsider but until Durant actually begins to give me problems or until I see a report from a larger event, I'm not going to consider it as a metagame deck.

Are you serious? Did you even look at the link I provided in that post? The one that says 3 Master division wins, 4 second places and 13 3/4 places? What on earth did your internet send you to?

JandPDS

12/19/2011, 07:20 AM

Are you serious? Did you even look at the link I provided in that post? The one that says 3 Master division wins, 4 second places and 13 3/4 places? What on earth did your internet send you to?

Make that 14 3/4 place as I went T4 yesterday, I won my T8 2-0 (Vs the #2 seed and a player who beat me in swiss) and I took the T4 match to a sudden death game 3 (after barely loosing game 1) but I had a one durrant/ twins start, Not a good matchup in sudden death, Still I was very happy with the decks performance thoughout the day and the entore CC season. Only has one bad tourney out of the 7 CC I have played in, And that one I rant into 3 fire deck in a row. Dont knock Durant it is a very good deck.

dreamdemon

12/19/2011, 07:30 AM

I think you are way off on the idea that people will put in the heatmor just because of durant. Most decks out there already have ways around durant and don't want to waste the deck space for one card that counters one deck. In any case, when the Pokemon center stadium card comes out, durant will be more playable than ever. The deck that will die off when that happens is one with kyerum in it. Lol
Posted with Mobile style...

TonySandlin

12/19/2011, 12:34 PM

No one plays it because they are mad that it works and feel like they are above the deck lol. Kinda like Shuppet Donk.

darck467

12/19/2011, 03:00 PM

mime jr. dude... + durant....

JandPDS

12/20/2011, 10:18 PM

No one plays it because they are mad that it works and feel like they are above the deck lol. Kinda like Shuppet Donk.

This is way way better then Suppet donk. Shuppet either donked or it lost. Durant is versitle it can win games so many different ways. It allways keeps your opponent guessing. That is the true strengh of durant. You control the gamestate most of the time and you force your opponent to react to you. Some games I have given up 4 prizes yet never felt any fear that I would loose the game.

TonySandlin

12/20/2011, 10:35 PM

If played with a good build, Shuppet donk can work almost every time. But my point was really that no one wants to admit that a deck that they either expect to be bad or that they hate because of its style, can actually be pretty good. I will be playing Durant.... mainly because I have no cards for other decks.

Miamisportsfan45

12/20/2011, 10:43 PM

Are you serious? Did you even look at the link I provided in that post? The one that says 3 Master division wins, 4 second places and 13 3/4 places? What on earth did your internet send you to?
My mistake. Thought it was a single cities report. But all in all, I still don't believe Durant is actually a compatible threat. I've lost my fair share of matches for it I will admit, but I've never played, or have yet to even see for the most part, a Durant in the Masters Division with a winning record at all in any of my local events I've been attending. Also, I usually don't lose to Durant due to knowing how easily to play it and when to expect it. Then again, maybe it's the competitiveness of the players I play when they use Durant and the lists they've used. But again, I'm not here to argue anyone on anything, I'm here to simply state my opinion. Which remains: Heatmor is a waste of deck space to counter something like Durant.

Although, on an exceptional standpoint... The only time I could see Heatmor as being useful, is if you need a full setup to actually keep consistency running in your deck. In which case running Heatmor as a Durant counter makes sense, because instead of loading your entire bench up with your setup only to be Catcher'd or slowed down, you could run Heatmor and use only the Heatmor throughout (with some free retreat Pokemon on the bench) or whatever your case may be.

That said, I can easily see Heatmor being a counter for Durant (obvious enough) but I don't see it as being consistent enough or as much of a need for said reasons. Just my simple input. As someone stated recently before me, most decks already have the mindset and playability within the deck itself to know how to find ways around Durant at this point.
Nope. 3 1st places, 4 2nd places, and 13 3rd/4th places. That's a total of 20 top 4 appearances to date.

For some perspective, Truth has only 17 top 4 appearances to date.

Miamisportsfan45, by answering your question seriously, I'm assuming you're not a troll, which is just silly on my part. Either way, you should learn how to read posts carefully before commenting on them and sounding extremely ignorant. :nonono:
Again, I read the list wrong.

You looked at the example on how to post a CCs info(Kevin Durant should have been the giveaway), Durant actually has 3 1st Place finishes, 4 2nd Place and 13 Top 4 finishes all in masters.

My mistake. I realize that I have read the list wrong.

DoomScizor

12/21/2011, 12:27 AM

All hate aside, I'll just have to tech that little anteater into every deck i ever make so If I ever play grafton roll again, I'll have the upper hand

Jason

12/21/2011, 01:36 AM

All hate aside, I'll just have to tech that little anteater into every deck i ever make so If I ever play grafton roll again, I'll have the upper hand
You do realise that when you tech in that, Grafton might consider changing decks to something else.

Otaku

12/21/2011, 04:25 AM

I think we have a variant of "the chicken and the egg" here: if everyone runs that Heatmor to counter Durant, Durant decks die out... but then Heatmor becomes a waste and people would stop running it, and thus Durant decks could make a comeback. If they make a comeback, Heatmor usage makes a comeback, and Durant usage declines. If Durant usage declines, Heatmor usage will likely die out...

...and all this assumes Durant decks can't counter Heatmor by then with any reasonable plays. I mean if everyone runs three or four of that Heatmor, then yeah, but now we have a different dilemma: if Durant decks are as good as some people on this thread say they are, shouldn't it take an opponent running two or more Heatmor to truly counter Durant decks? Conversely, if they are not as good as some proponents are making out, why would a deck need Heatmor for a counter?

I realize there is almost certainly a third option I am missing, and would appreciate the more experienced players pointing it out.

untitled

12/21/2011, 06:37 PM

^The situation you described is a lot like the Tyrogue and Cleffa thing now.

At first nobody ran Tyrogue, then everybody sees what happened in Canadian Nationals, and then everybody runs it. People get donked all the time, so they cut down on Cleffa, or remove it completely. Nobody donks with Tyrogue, so all of them are out of decks by the time worlds rolls around. Then, 30HP basics become a safe play, and furthermore a great play in Ross's deck, Eelzone, Gothitelle, etc, because people were too lazy to put Tyrogue back in their decks or something like that. It's possible the same will happen with Heatmor, where it sees some play at first, and Durant dies off a little. Then when Heatmor dies off again, Durant makes a permanent comeback and Heatmor doesn't. We'll see what happens when that time comes.

Tash

12/21/2011, 09:36 PM

I think it'll be a case similar to Crygonol, where it was expected to hard counter Donphan, but by the time it was released Donphan became so uncommon that it became a waste to run the thing.

DoomScizor

12/22/2011, 12:21 AM

You do realise that when you tech in that, Grafton might consider changing decks to something else.

He better not, I want revenge.

Ninjask88

12/22/2011, 07:15 PM

Shishio

12/22/2011, 08:53 PM

Heatmor and Durant are enemies correct, Like Zangoose and Seviper? So, doesn't tgat mean that a Durant card will be made to 'counter' the Heatmor?

I don't know what will happen but that is just what it seems like to me.

I think its more of a one-sided thing. EVen though ironically in the VG Durant annihilates heatmor.

Lawman

12/24/2011, 11:11 AM

Durant doesn't win Masters Cities.

I guess Ness is a scrub player and he got lucky winning the 1st FL marathon CC. BTW, Durant won the 1st 2 days in FL in MAs.

Still think Durant is a bad play in MAs?

Keith

Otaku

12/24/2011, 01:29 PM

Um... Keith, I think that actually was already addressed and settled earlier in the thread. XD

Miamisportsfan45

12/27/2011, 04:23 AM

I guess Ness is a scrub player and he got lucky winning the 1st FL marathon CC. BTW, Durant won the 1st 2 days in FL in MAs.

Still think Durant is a bad play in MAs?

Keith
I'm aware. I live and compete in the Florida area and go to league with over half of the people that made top cuts throughout the marathons. No disrespect to Jason at all, but I don't think it was Durant that won as much as it was the player. He's the kind of player that can build a deck from "you name the card" and still manage to make top cut. :lol:
Um... Keith, I think that actually was already addressed and settled earlier in the thread. XD
Correct and noted.
Heatmor and Durant are enemies correct, Like Zangoose and Seviper? So, doesn't tgat mean that a Durant card will be made to 'counter' the Heatmor?

I don't know what will happen but that is just what it seems like to me.

It would be interesting to see a Durant card made to counter the Heatmor honestly. It'd give a Durant deck more versatility and an ironic twist. It could either hurt or help, but then as Otaku said, I think it'd fluctuate the use of each particular Durant with only a 4 Durant maximum. What I mean by this, is that as Durant dies off and comes back, when Heatmor comes back the counter will come back as well and it'd give an even thicker currency of when it shows, how it shows and etc.

Roarkiller

12/27/2011, 07:34 AM

Durant isn't winning as much is probably because few people are playing it, or playing the right build. Magneel and ZPST are hogging the top probably because it's what is played most.

For the record, I'm 4-1 against ZPST at my cities, that one loss was razor thin too, and came out 2nd. Beat the donk, you beat the deck. But anyway...

Even if durant somehow manages to make it big enough, heatmor won't be a threat due to one big reason: IT'S A TECH. And as far as techs go, you will only risk one copy in your deck, and the chances of starting with it are slim indeed. Turbo durants, or most durants in fact, run 4 catchers, so unless that one starter of yours has free retreat, you can bet that heatmor is going to be sitting on the bench for quite a bit unless you run seeker, but then it becomes a two-card tech, no?

Skyarrow bridge is probably the biggest asset for anyone running heatmor, since the catcher trap no longer works. However, just like how seeker can help you get rid of your lone benchwarmer, durant decks can also run seeker to pull out that lone bench and rid you of your heatmor before dropping a spiritomb to shuffle it back into your deck. In fact, this tactic is already one of the more common disruption tactics in durant builds, along with rainbow for rotom and black belt. Not to mention they can also run counter stadiums. Or worse, Rocky Helmet.

Back on the problem of durant, if your area plays a lot of setup decks, than durant is one of the best decks you can bring out. Tyram meta, best to shelve it, I haven't found a good enough counter for it yet. ZPST, only if you don't fear donks, and I sure don't.

ogremarauder

12/27/2011, 01:13 PM

wouldn't v-create victini be a better counter? It is more useful in multiple matchups than the heatmor.

JandPDS

12/27/2011, 01:19 PM

One of the best players in our area tried the V-Create as a Durant counter in his Gothitelle deck. It did not save him. The first one went down to a Cobalion. He revived it and got it powered up a few turns latter and took out the Cobalion, then it went down to a Black Belted Durant. By the time he was able to set it up a 3rd time it was too late and he was decked out. The problem with V-Create is that it takes 2 energy and that makes it too slow to be effective against durant.

alexmf2

12/30/2011, 01:25 PM

Post Next Destinies Emboar variants will begin to see play a lot more. Even just that could be the end of Durant, as Emboar destroys Durant every turn and Crushing Hammer does nothing to it. On top of that, Black Belt and Cobalion wouldn't even make a dent in the strategy if your playing someone smart that sets up their main attacker or another Emboar as well.

Rambo

12/30/2011, 04:36 PM

Emboar variants don't beat Durant..

Shabby Krabby

12/31/2011, 01:48 AM

This post mad me lol so hard.
Durant isn't my kind of deck, he's so popular though because the cards needed to make the deck are cheap and if you cannot get out at least one attacker to KO ants b4 they discard something good your in for a boring game, not to mention Cobalion to clean up the only attacker you managed to setup.

To everyone who says Durant is broken and unfair, stop complaining the deck is just disruptive and annoying @ best.

To everyone who makes a big deal about Teching in 1-2 Heatmor enjoy having your deck devoured.

SidewaysDaze

12/31/2011, 07:38 AM

Durant doesn't win Masters Cities.

Durant won a city championship in Washington 2 days ago. And i have a feeling it wasn't the only one in the masters division to win

Rambo

12/31/2011, 02:17 PM

Durant won a city championship in Washington 2 days ago. And i have a feeling it wasn't the only one in the masters division to win

It's won 5 and come second 6 times to be exact, but we've already established he was wrong.

alexmf2

12/31/2011, 03:13 PM

Emboar variants don't beat Durant..

Any deck that can ko a Durant a turn no matter what the Durant does beats Durant. Thats why people tech in Victini in Trainer Lock decks if they have trouble with Durant, and it's why ReshiPhlosion and ZekEel can consistently beat Durant.

JandPDS

12/31/2011, 06:26 PM

Any deck that can ko a Durant a turn no matter what the Durant does beats Durant. Thats why people tech in Victini in Trainer Lock decks if they have trouble with Durant, and it's why ReshiPhlosion and ZekEel can consistently beat Durant.

ONe of my opponents tired Victini today. After he Ko's me I atached a 2nd energy to a durant and KO'd him with Balack belt. He only took one more prize that game befire I decked him out.

I also decked out a Donhaan deck in like 6 turns today that was my fastest yet. (he played a some draw supporters that helped).

I missed out on top cut becuase in R5 my opponent drew his final card from his deck on the turn he took his 6th prize. I had catchered up and unpowered Kyurem, but he had the junk arm and switch in his discard pile. If I had paid more attention to my hand the turn before when I played twins I would have won that game. My misplay, not the deck caused me to loose that game. But I still went 3-2 so I was happy.

Only 2 more weeks to go of CC's good luck to everyone.

Rambo

01/01/2012, 02:48 AM

Any deck that can ko a Durant a turn no matter what the Durant does beats Durant. Thats why people tech in Victini in Trainer Lock decks if they have trouble with Durant, and it's why ReshiPhlosion and ZekEel can consistently beat Durant.

You try setting up an Emboar while going against Durant, then, try retreating Emboar every turn of the game when your opponent catchers it up. ALSO bear in mind, that Durant has most likely milled half of your recovery cards like fisherman at this point, if not more. The only trainer lock deck I'm aware of that techs in Victini is vVv, which if I recall is more for cobalion than anything. Reshiphlosion and ZekEel can't consistently beat Durant, I'm not sure anything can consistently beat it. You're better off with ZPST vs Durant than ZekEel, trust me from personal experience. As for reshiphlosion, I'm not sure why people have so much trouble with it, I hardly lose to it, maybe it's just my build.

PS it's not whatever can KO a Durant a turn, it's what ever can KO a durant a turn from pretty much T1 or T2.

Miamisportsfan45

01/01/2012, 02:58 AM

You try setting up an Emboar while going against Durant, then, try retreating Emboar every turn of the game when your opponent catchers it up. ALSO bear in mind, that Durant has most likely milled half of your recovery cards like fisherman at this point, if not more. The only trainer lock deck I'm aware of that techs in Victini is vVv, which if I recall is more for cobalion than anything. Reshiphlosion and ZekEel can't consistently beat Durant, I'm not sure anything can consistently beat it. You're better off with ZPST vs Durant than ZekEel, trust me from personal experience. As for reshiphlosion, I'm not sure why people have so much trouble with it, I hardly lose to it, maybe it's just my build.

PS it's not whatever can KO a Durant a turn, it's what ever can KO a durant a turn from pretty much T1 or T2.

Have you considered Emboar being set up lonesome? It fairs pretty well against a Durant dealing 160-60 (assuming you have 4 SP. Metal and an Eviolite on Durant it still ko's)

Though, Emboar is doubtful to even get set up properly as it is. Especially if you're playing Durant by surprise.

Electric Spider

01/01/2012, 03:56 AM

Have you considered Emboar being set up lonesome? It fairs pretty well against a Durant dealing 160-60 (assuming you have 4 SP. Metal and an Eviolite on Durant it still ko's)

Though, Emboar is doubtful to even get set up properly as it is. Especially if you're playing Durant by surprise.

A lone Emboar is subject to getting attack locked by a Cobalion.

alexmf2

01/01/2012, 06:50 AM

You try setting up an Emboar while going against Durant, then, try retreating Emboar every turn of the game when your opponent catchers it up.
Its called attacking with Emboar

ALSO bear in mind, that Durant has most likely milled half of your recovery cards like fisherman at this point, if not more.
Read above. You shouldn't even be playing any energy recovery cards. Reshiram EX says hi.

The only trainer lock deck I'm aware of that techs in Victini is vVv, which if I recall is more for cobalion than anything.
Then you haven't played many trainer lock decks.

Reshiphlosion and ZekEel can't consistently beat Durant, I'm not sure anything can consistently beat it.
ReshiPhlosion and ZekEel do they exact thing that makes Durant lose, they KO a Durant a turn starting T2 and it is impossible to stall them.

You're better off with ZPST vs Durant than ZekEel, trust me from personal experience. As for reshiphlosion, I'm not sure why people have so much trouble with it, I hardly lose to it, maybe it's just my build.
Obviously ZPST is better than ZekEel against Durant... For ReshiPhlosion, its probably not your build (most are quite similar), it's probably that your opponents aren't to good. Did they even attack with Phlosion?

PS it's not whatever can KO a Durant a turn, it's what ever can KO a durant a turn from pretty much T1 or T2.
T2 is the key word here, and all the decks mentioned above can do just that.

Replied to you in bold.

Rambo

01/01/2012, 09:55 AM

Replied to you in bold.

You try setting up an Emboar while going against Durant, then, try retreating Emboar every turn of the game when your opponent catchers it up.
Its called attacking with Emboar

What are you going to do when a Cobalion prevents you from attacking and you're stuck with a beefy Emboar about to be KO'd next turn.

ALSO bear in mind, that Durant has most likely milled half of your recovery cards like fisherman at this point, if not more.
Read above. You shouldn't even be playing any energy recovery cards. Reshiram EX says hi.

You're not playing any energy recovery in an emboar deck? Mmk. Also you can't use a card that hasn't been printed yet as a reason. That era hasn't come, I haven't even had an opportunity to go to a cities yet.

The only trainer lock deck I'm aware of that techs in Victini is vVv, which if I recall is more for cobalion than anything.
Then you haven't played many trainer lock decks.

I have, none of them have played, or played to a good effect vs Durant, a Victini. Black belt OHKO revenges it.

Reshiphlosion and ZekEel can't consistently beat Durant, I'm not sure anything can consistently beat it.
ReshiPhlosion and ZekEel do they exact thing that makes Durant lose, they KO a Durant a turn starting T2 and it is impossible to stall them.

It is very easy to stall ZekEel, Reshiphlosion is harder, yes, but still doable.

You're better off with ZPST vs Durant than ZekEel, trust me from personal experience. As for reshiphlosion, I'm not sure why people have so much trouble with it, I hardly lose to it, maybe it's just my build.
Obviously ZPST is better than ZekEel against Durant... For ReshiPhlosion, its probably not your build (most are quite similar), it's probably that your opponents aren't to good. Did they even attack with Phlosion?

I'll pretend that my 3 time national champion is a bad player, as well as the other people from the most successful league in the UK then? Of course they attacked with Phlosion, when I let them.

PS it's not whatever can KO a Durant a turn, it's what ever can KO a durant a turn from pretty much T1 or T2.
T2 is the key word here, and all the decks mentioned above can do just that.

I'd like to see Reshiphlosion consistently KO a Durant every turn from turn 2.

More Durants have won than emboar variants, so I'm assuming that they have beaten emboars along the way.

JandPDS

01/01/2012, 10:17 AM

More Durants have won than emboar variants, so I'm assuming that they have beaten emboars along the way.

MY wifre runs Reshibaor, and while i have beaten her at home nd leage a few times, she wins the vast majority of our games, and when we met once in a CC this year she destroyed me. Yes it is an easeier match up then Typhlosian, but if you catcher up an Emboar it can OHKO your durrants just fine.

alexmf2

01/01/2012, 12:43 PM

I'm just going to give up on this, as neither of us is going to let down their argument. Lets just wait till tournament outcomes, but I just cant believe you honestly think Durant > Typhlosion/Emboar.

untitled

01/01/2012, 02:03 PM

More Durants have won than emboar variants, so I'm assuming that they have beaten emboars along the way.
More Reshiphlosion have won than Blastoise/Feraligatr. Does that mean Reshiphlosion consistently beats Blastgatr? Of course not...

For all you know, each of the seven times Reshiphlosion won, it lost to a Blastgatr in Swiss and managed to dodge it in cut.

More Magnezone/Eelektrik have won than Chandelure. That doesn't mean Magnezone/Eelektrik has a favorable Chandelure matchup (we all know it doesn't.) It just means it's won more.

You can't figure out a deck's matchups by just blindly looking at arbitrary numbers. I agree with everybody saying Emboar and Typhlosion decks > Durant decks, because when I tested the matchup, fire would consistently win. Our testing may differ, and that's fine. But Durant having more wins than Emboar isn't a valid reason to claim Durant has a good Emboar matchup.

InnoceNt

01/01/2012, 05:20 PM

Durant is legitimate, tier 1 definitely.

If you have a bad matchup, run Heatmor.

JandPDS

01/01/2012, 10:59 PM

[QUOTE=InnoceNt;2173045]Durant is legitimate, tier 1 definitely.

Yep, I would have to cut two tourney in a row with it but my last game I was one card away from decking him out. I made a misplay on my twins selection that turned out to cost me the game. But I have played it in 8 CC's this year and have a winning recored on all but one. Durant is defianlty here to stay it wont be going away anytime soon.

Electric Spider

01/02/2012, 02:59 PM

JandPDS

01/02/2012, 04:41 PM

Otaku

01/03/2012, 07:04 AM

Honestly Typlosion is a better bet than Emboar is when your facing Durant. Self recovery, cheaper attack, lower retreat. Emboar can't do much when a Cobalion hits the field and keeps it from attacking. At least Typhlosion can easily retreat out of it and recover the energies it discarded on retreating. Still not an auto-win though.

Durant decks Trainer lock? Sorry to seem dense but I didn't catch that early on. Or are you talking about a worse case scenario for the player? I realize that draw power is dangerous to use when facing Durant, but still I would think given how most decks are built that either Pokemon Catcher, Switch, or a Junk Arm to retrieve one of the two. Unless Iron Breaker is unusual and the effect only resides on the Defending Pokemon (normally these things seem to depend on both). Even then, the irony of Durant milling is that it may help the player break the soft lock by milling a Switch that the ample Junk Arm most decks run can recycle.

Please note why I brought this up for Emboar and Typhlosion Prime decks; this is cold comfort to your average deck and only really matters here because of those two Pokemon possessing Energy acceleration and hitting for Weakness.

If I am completely wrong I welcome correct; I once again had to sit out Cities so I need to learn these things!

PokePop

01/03/2012, 09:49 AM

Unless Iron Breaker is unusual and the effect only resides on the Defending Pokemon (normally these things seem to depend on both).

Actually, it is exceeding rare for an effect to depend on both. In 99+% of the time, an effect resides on either the Defending or the Attacking Pokemon.
In the case of Iron Breaker, the effect resides totally on the Defending Pokemon.

Gusting up an Ant does little. It has a Retreat Cost of one. I can either pay that, or just switch to milling the opponent, depending on how my hand, their deck, and their prizes look.

Milling against a Trainer Lock deck is a bit of a crap shoot. Who gets set up first. If a Trainer Lock deck can get set up completely by turn 3 or 4, it can cause turbo Durant a lot of trouble. Disruption and recovery of KO'd Ants becomes very difficult.

On the other hand, if Durant manages to mill away a few of their set up cards, or they don't get set up until after turn 4, chances are that you can mill them out.

With techs such as Cobalion, Trainer Lock decks face a big problem themselves as they generally don't do mega damage and Cobalion can shut them down.

Electric Spider

01/03/2012, 03:45 PM

Durant decks Trainer lock? Sorry to seem dense but I didn't catch that early on. Or are you talking about a worse case scenario for the player? I realize that draw power is dangerous to use when facing Durant, but still I would think given how most decks are built that either Pokemon Catcher, Switch, or a Junk Arm to retrieve one of the two. Unless Iron Breaker is unusual and the effect only resides on the Defending Pokemon (normally these things seem to depend on both). Even then, the irony of Durant milling is that it may help the player break the soft lock by milling a Switch that the ample Junk Arm most decks run can recycle.

Please note why I brought this up for Emboar and Typhlosion Prime decks; this is cold comfort to your average deck and only really matters here because of those two Pokemon possessing Energy acceleration and hitting for Weakness.

If I am completely wrong I welcome correct; I once again had to sit out Cities so I need to learn these things!

My friend plays Durant and I usually step up to help playtest. Setting up 1-2 Typlosions with minimal drawpower isn't too hard. Just play some communications or candy. The real problem is Cobalion. I run 2 switch and 4 junk arms. You are not guaranteed to have a switch/junk arm in your hand when you need it, so Typlosion's lower retreat/built in energy recovery is a nice back-up option and gives you a better chance of retreating and attacking with the benched Typhlosion in the same turn. Emboar isn't terrible but It doesn't share the same luxuries.

That's all I'm saying, both cards have a very favorable match-up against Durant. It's just my own opinion that Typhlosion is a better bet.

Miamisportsfan45

01/03/2012, 04:14 PM

A lone Emboar is subject to getting attack locked by a Cobalion.

But even then, that's not enough to KO Emboar and you're looking at another OHKO on Cobalion and a wasted opportunity to discard.

Edit: Just realized you said attack-locked, not energy pressed.

---------- Post added 01/03/2012 at 07:16 PM ----------

My friend plays Durant and I usually step up to help playtest. Setting up 1-2 Typlosions with minimal drawpower isn't too hard. Just play some communications or candy. The real problem is Cobalion. I run 2 switch and 4 junk arms. You are not guaranteed to have a switch/junk arm in your hand when you need it, so Typlosion's lower retreat/built in energy recovery is a nice back-up option and gives you a better chance of retreating and attacking with the benched Typhlosion in the same turn. Emboar isn't terrible but It doesn't share the same luxuries.

That's all I'm saying, both cards have a very favorable match-up against Durant. It's just my own opinion that Typhlosion is a better bet.

I do agree with you on this post, however.

Otaku

01/03/2012, 05:59 PM

Actually, it is exceeding rare for an effect to depend on both.

Well, my bad.

In 99+% of the time, an effect resides on either the Defending or the Attacking Pokemon.
In the case of Iron Breaker, the effect resides totally on the Defending Pokemon.

Good to know. I didn't see that when I looked it up to be sure in the BW Compendium. I miss it or just failed at remembering "general" rulings? :redface:

Gusting up an Ant does little. It has a Retreat Cost of one. I can either pay that, or just switch to milling the opponent, depending on how my hand, their deck, and their prizes look.

Considering I only brought up using Pokemon Catcher to force Cobalion to the Bench under the mistaken notion that it would break the lock... well I guess it is good to have that confirmed, so thank you.

Milling against a Trainer Lock deck is a bit of a crap shoot. Who gets set up first. If a Trainer Lock deck can get set up completely by turn 3 or 4, it can cause turbo Durant a lot of trouble. Disruption and recovery of KO'd Ants becomes very difficult.

On the other hand, if Durant manages to mill away a few of their set up cards, or they don't get set up until after turn 4, chances are that you can mill them out.

With techs such as Cobalion, Trainer Lock decks face a big problem themselves as they generally don't do mega damage and Cobalion can shut them down.

...and later posts tell me that it is much harder than I expected procuring a Switch for something like Emboar, even with Junk Arm maxed out to recycle any that got discarded from the mill or previous use. So the Retreat Cost is much more important than I realized, and I thank all for sharing.

PokePop

01/03/2012, 06:08 PM

It's not so much that it's impossible to get a Switch or Junk Arm for one, but that one is not enough.
It will just get Catchered right back up again.

Calm_Lava

01/03/2012, 10:56 PM

Somewhat on the subject of Durant seeing it's end, do yall think that Durant will still be reasonably seen after the new set comes out? Or will it become less viable and less seen just like many other decks are expected to happen with?

Rambo

01/04/2012, 04:29 AM

JandPDS

01/04/2012, 06:43 AM

Regarding the new set, if mewtwo gets as much hype as it does, I can see Durant doing alright, but will have a tougher matchup just like most decks will. Resistance for Durant will be a bonus, low energy cost to attack makes mewtwo's first attack less viable early on. I think Durant's use of Crushing Hammer/Lost Remover will be much more important, but to ensure an equal to favourable matchup it's probably going to have to use Cobalion.

Yes I agree the new set will make Turbo durant increasingly a togher deck to win with. Not that it will not still be able to pull off the deckouts, just that there will be a increasingly tougher road for it to be able to do it. The fact that Iron Breaker makes it so Mewtwo cant attack the next turn will be a huge help. They will have to have two EX's powered up to beat you. If Cobalion has Eviolite and a Special metal it is blocking 50 damage. That means Mewtwo EX would need to have 6 energy on it to OHKO the Cobalion. Not an easy task.

CFOURCOLTSFAN

01/06/2012, 02:11 PM

PokePop

01/06/2012, 02:55 PM

I could be wrong but wouldn't Mewtwo being popular help durant? I mean i don't see any t1/t2 Mewtwo decks setting up more than one mewtwo that quick and wouldn't it have problems w/ a twins for Mewtwo+DCE- have fun getting another set up while i'm milling another 4 cards per turn?
I could be wrong..
Also heatmor doesn't end durant, for one heatmor only has 90 hp so a cobalion+PP would OHKO it...although if worse comes to worse durant could try to find some decent water tech(if one exists)

I'm agreeing with you on this.
Once you have a Pokemon that can OHKO a Durant, what difference does it make if it OHKO's it by 10 damage or by 100? And the Mewtwo EX builds that I have seen make use of Eelectrike. Hello, Catcher Bait!
Or, if all they have out is the Mewtwo after blowing up a Trode, meet my friend, Mr. Cobalion. How nice of you to have all those energy cards on you so I only need two energy to OHKO you.

No, I don't see Mewtwo doing anything that any other big hitter already does.

JandPDS

01/06/2012, 05:30 PM

I'm agreeing with you on this.
Once you have a Pokemon that can OHKO a Durant, what difference does it make if it OHKO's it by 10 damage or by 100? And the Mewtwo EX builds that I have seen make use of Eelectrike. Hello, Catcher Bait!
Or, if all they have out is the Mewtwo after blowing up a Trode, meet my friend, Mr. Cobalion. How nice of you to have all those energy cards on you so I only need two energy to OHKO you.

No, I don't see Mewtwo doing anything that any other big hitter already does.

Very true I think durant will survive the next set of Pokemon just fine.