Changes in the new POP Floor Rules [Archive]

SteveP

10/01/2003, 02:34 AM

As I read the newest POP Rules at Pokemon-TCG, I've found a few minor changes that will effect some. They are:

#1

Cards Legal for Construction Deck Format

"All Pokemon cards from trading card game expansion sets that have been released in the United States...."

Sounds like Japanese cards are out, or maybe I'm reading this wrong. Bummer dude. I for one am going to petition for a change to this ruling.

#2

New Releases

"All Pokemon trading card game sets and promotional trading game cards are allowed in POP-sanctioned tournaments as soon as they are released to the public."

So, this sounds like "official release dates" determine when cards are legal; not like in the past when they became legal once you had one in your hands.

#3

Pre-game Setup

A couple of differences here.
1. Pokemon aren't layed down until BOTH players have at least one basic. Then, Pokemon are layed down at the same time by both players.
2. The FIRST Pokemon layed is the active Pokemon. So, players better be careful NOT to lay down their bench first.

#4

Minimum number of Players

"For an event to remain sanctioned, there must be a minimum of 8 players."

Before, you only needed 4.

That's all I see that's different for now. Has anyone else seen anything different?

HypnosProjectHQ

10/01/2003, 03:55 AM

Well, the old Mulligan rule... where if you and your opponent both have no basics, you shuffle your hands back into your decks with no drawing of extra cards. Also, you show your hands at the same time too.

And about the Japanese cards, as long as you have colored sleeves, you can play them IF they have been released in America. Make sense? Thanks much for posting these Tourney Rulings!

NoPoke

10/01/2003, 04:00 AM

I saw the pre-game procedure change too...For a while wotc was like this untill they fixed it by requireing you to place a basic face down as proof that you haven't muliganed.

It wasn't broke but its been fixed anyway.( and is slightly broken now IMHO)

----------------------

Requireing that all cards have to be released in the USA will cause problems for local language cards. French cards are apparently illegal for tournament play even in France by a strict interpretation of this rule!

A minor wrinkle is that the English Sandstorm cards that I have are not for sale in the USA or Japan... and the American R&S that I have aren't legal for sale outside the USA! So I can play with the imports but not with the locally purchased product?!?!? Not to big a deal for Englaish cards since how can you tell once they have been opened: LOL

International EX set boosters not legal? Can't be correct and I expect will get fixed. That is unless Nintendo are making the decisions in which case regionalisation will be the norm. I think konami have tried this in Belgium with YuGiOh. The response from the players wasn't favourable. Michel can tell us more as I don't follow YuGiOh

=========
Card interpretation...

This one is interesting...major International events, presumably Worlds have to use the Japanese card interpretations. So Slowking only works when active. This isn't a problem at the moment but there is potential for confusion in the future.

==========

Cards aren't legal for play until released to the public...this will cause us outside the USA yet more grief. Much as it did under WotC when local availability declined. Not so bad for us in the UK where we get the american product repackaged.

[Note that EU law generally forbids any practice that can be used as a barrier to trade within the EU. But we shouldn't need lawyers to interpret this kind of stuff should we ;)]

===========
There are some minor gramatical errors too.

Prof Donphan

10/01/2003, 04:34 AM

Which cards are Promotional cards numbered 001 and higher?
Ex Kyogre?

No best promo allowed? Bye Prof.Elm, Mew, Lucky Stadium and so on?

Marcello-Milord

10/01/2003, 04:41 AM

I have another interpretation for the "cards release in USA" quote...

I think they refers to sets thathave been released in USA. So, as Ex: Ruby & Sapphire and Ex: Sandstorm are released, they are Modified legal EVERYWHERE.
This could mean that, if tomorrow PUI allows to sanction tournaments in Italy, and I run a Constructed Modified tournament in Italy, Ex: R/s and Sandstorm are allowed, also if they are still not released officially for Italy.

Maybe if I'm wrong.. but they have written:

"All Pokemon trading card game sets and promotional trading game cards are allowed in POP-sanctioned tournaments as soon as they are released to the public."It's not the same as:

"All Pokémon trading card game sets and promotional trading game cards are allowed in POP-sanctioned tournaments as long as they are printed, released and legal for sale in USA."

And, Prof. Donphan:
Wizards' promo (both Black Star and Best) are NOT allowed. So, bye bye prom promo black star #21 from #53 and bye bye all Best ç_ç

NoPoke

10/01/2003, 04:50 AM

Marcello the point is that floor rules should not be down to interpretation. They should be crystal clear!

GymLeaderPhil

10/01/2003, 06:16 AM

I'd like to see some Penalty Guidelines. The clearer we are with what is wrong to do in a match, players and judges will be able to spot potential problems out.
-Phil

farbsman

10/01/2003, 07:28 AM

I think they should change it and allow the Best promos back in, nothing like getting a promo one month and not being able to use it the next :(

Gym Leader Blaine

10/01/2003, 07:44 AM

Well OP is suppost to start today, so Lets hope all the rules and question everyone has gets worked out. You know a weekly chat would be nice, it always has helped in the past. I know we have a place on the board to post stuff, but it is just no the same.

old man

10/01/2003, 07:47 AM

Did you also notice that the World's tournament is by invitation only?

Not a big surprise there unless it's talking about you can't even play in a side event, which I doubt.

Taking notes: Players may NOT take notes during the match except to keep track of effects of cards in play.

This has changed some. You use to be able to keep notes as long as you did it in a timely, non disruptive manner.

Don't forget the line that states that you can use a card from an older set, (base-revelations), as long as that card has been reprinted in one of the current, legal sets.

Updated Results - Once a tournament is reported as completed & final, ratings & rankings for the individual players will be calculated the next morning.

This indicates you may not have to wait for a specific day of the week for the updates, as it looks it can happen on any day.

That's all that I see that is noteworthy that hasn't been mentioned

PokePop

10/01/2003, 09:31 AM

I have another interpretation for the "cards release in USA" quote...

I think they refers to sets thathave been released in USA. So, as Ex: Ruby & Sapphire and Ex: Sandstorm are released, they are Modified legal EVERYWHERE.
This could mean that, if tomorrow PUI allows to sanction tournaments in Italy, and I run a Constructed Modified tournament in Italy, Ex: R/s and Sandstorm are allowed, also if they are still not released officially for Italy.

Maybe if I'm wrong.. but they have written:

It's not the same as:

"All Pokémon trading card game sets and promotional trading game cards are allowed in POP-sanctioned tournaments as long as they are printed, released and legal for sale in USA."

And, Prof. Donphan:
Wizards' promo (both Black Star and Best) are NOT allowed. So, bye bye prom promo black star #21 from #53 and bye bye all Best ç_ç

The intent is to allow Japanese and other non-English cards, as long as they have been released by P-USA or WotC.
I imagine the difficulty in the language is to phrase it without directly mentioning WotC.

NoPoke

10/01/2003, 09:51 AM

how about

Cards legal for constructed deck format

All Pokémon cards from trading card game expansion sets that have been released in the United States, including promotional cards, are legal for tournament play. International equivalents of those cards are also legal for tournament play. Players are not restricted to using only locally released cards. Specific constructed deck formats may include additional rules on which card sets are allowed.

I'm not sure where the thread is but Michel posted that Konami only allowed Belgian cards at a Belgian YuHiOh tournament. When I've found it I'll post a link.

ShadowCard

10/01/2003, 04:08 PM

GymLeaderPhil

10/01/2003, 05:28 PM

"Player Eligibility: Employees of companies who assist Pokémon USA, Inc, in promoting organized play in their country"

This probably should have been easy for me to understand and i'm probably analyzing it too much. To what extent does this go to? If i work at a small store that's 1 of 3 places and we run the pokémon league, does that not allow me to play in any tourneys anywhere else? Does this mean anyone who works for WOTC or CVS or any other companies that sell Pokémon cards cannot play in tournement's that aren't at their own store?

They are speaking of employees involved with distributing the Pokemon TCG in other countries. This does not include anyone working at a store or other location that sanctions events. If you are one of those and not the TO/Judge of that tournament, you may play.
-Phil

NoPoke

10/02/2003, 12:34 AM

ShadowCard just ensure that your shop doesn't assist PUI and you'll be fine ;) However you are correct in pointing out the exclusion is unclear as written. Anyone got any suggestions upon how to rephrase the ASSIST exclusion?

Rainbowgym

10/02/2003, 11:41 PM

Just for one time i'm happy to be in Europe

We still don't have OP so sunday i'm going to play my Prof Elm in a large tournament.

I feel sorry for all you american players who lost that beautyfull card. Nice to know that the Rocket's Hitmoncan we earned last week is not allowed in a short period (at least if we want to follow OP rules, not sure if i'm going to do that). Also nice we can play with Kyogre en Groudon EX promocards which we don't have overhere, nice we are allowed to play Combusken promo which is given out in leauguekits which TPC is not willing to send to our distributors.
O boy this is really an international supported game. Taking care of all its players.

ukpokemonpro

10/03/2003, 12:28 AM

Tego

10/03/2003, 02:37 AM

"Player Eligibility: Employees of companies who assist Pokémon USA, Inc, in promoting organized play in their country"

So I really have played my last sanctioned tournament ever. -__-; It's been nice being a player... Roll on, non-sanctioned Wizards/Professor Challenge-type premier events! =P

PokePop

10/03/2003, 05:36 AM

Careful now Rainbowgym that kind of language gets your posts deleted!

And after all it doesn't toe the PUI line of International OP is alive and well under our hands just not supported, consulted or thought about much!

I still wonder why PUI cannot send the MPs some promo's, I still wonder why they ruled Mis-print Marill as they have and then changed the print run for the rest of the world so no free retreat Marill in our packs >.<... but I must not stray off-topic too much.

Thank god it's E-on but banning the best promos when Europe still doesn't have them all .... MMMMMMM well you considered our feelings well....

Let me be blunt because I am getting ticked off about the attitiude that we don't allow discussion about your very real concerns.

What we don't want is every topic turned into a "Europe doesn't have this either" discussion.
Do you mind if we keep our board enjoyable for the broad range of players?

So, please feel free to post about this real issue.
Feel free to put PUI through the ringer.
Talk about how you can't get a discussion going with your distributors.
But, please, please, PLEASE, either start a new "Europe doesn't have access to the promos in new Modifed" topic or discuss it in one of the other "Europe is getting short shrift" topics.

Is that too ****ing much to ask?
Can we stop the snide "Team Compendium won't let us discuss Europe's problems" remarks, when any cursory review of the board shows that to be patently untrue?
Are you purposely being obtuse?
Can I rephase this any other ways?

signed- at the end of my rope.

ukpokemonpro

10/03/2003, 09:30 AM

Is that too ****ing much to ask?

PokePop can you not see that your post typifies the one rule for US and another for everyone else?

Certainly I am concerned that the POP floor rules have involved no input from non-US players and that all that does is confirm our view of how much PUI really thinks of INTERNATIONAL PLAY ... ie not a lot!

)v(ajin_ipg21

10/03/2003, 09:49 AM

Yo,

Usually I am a silent MOD cause it is a HAPPIER place BUT WHO in the US was consulted for FLOOR RULES?

DO you know?
DO you have tapes?
Do you have witnesses?
Did you eaves drop?

From what I understand IT WAS ALL OF THE HARD WORK AND LABOR that the MT's put into in @ WotC.
*THAT somewhat ticks me off that FOR any new players MAY not acknowledge ALL THE WORK the MT's did to develop this game & community, IT is all PUI copyrighted*

So PUI is also suppose to TOE YOUR LINE? AND whatever is GOOD enough for the USA is NOT for the rest of the world?
AND I beleive if changes are deemed nessecary THEY will occur.

*no one has anymore patience*

I think they consulted JAPAN =/

PokePop

10/03/2003, 10:09 AM

No. My post typified that I'm one of the owners of this board and am losing my patience.

Yes, there does seem to be a lack of support for Europe OP at this point. I don't know if that will be resolved to your satisfaction soon or not, but what I do know is that we are happy for you to vent your frustrations on the subject.
Just not in every single topic.
Split off a new topic and discuss. What's the problem with that? Please address that and only that. Not whether you have problems in Europe. In case you missed it, we agree that you have a problem.

SteveP

10/03/2003, 11:38 AM

Yup, I just wasted 5-minutes reading posts in this topic that had NOTHING to do with my topic.

meganium45

10/03/2003, 11:45 AM

SteveP

10/03/2003, 12:02 PM

Thanks Meganium45. That's certainly a new ruling. I assume that's listed in "Ask the Trainers" rulings section.

PokePop

10/03/2003, 12:55 PM

Thanks Meganium45. That's certainly a new ruling. I assume that's listed in "Ask the Trainers" rulings section.

No need. It's in the new Sandstorm rulebook.
I think someone is asking whether Clefairy Doll also gets that treatment (have only read the topic title so far, so I'm guessing) and that's a good question for ATMT.

Tego

10/03/2003, 12:56 PM

Ukpokemonpro, it's enough now. The new floor rules affect us too. The new Promo cards will probably all become available here later.

I do understand how frustrating it is to read about all the new and cool things players in the USA get and I do understand you get angry, frustrated and sad for knowing you don't get anything of this... yet!

For Europe, it isn't a case of "we'll never ever get any of it" it's just "we'll get some of this - just later". It might even be a "we'll get all of this - just later"!

Yes, it is a shame that PUI choose to give us OP and everything around it so much later than the US. Yes, it is a shame that we'll just start slowly with OP this autumn. But this is the way it is - face it. We can't keep on whining about this. We know for a fact that there will be OP in Europe, we've known for ages that it's later than the USA.

It's October now, the wait has been long, but it's nearly over. Mid-October is when the Pokémon Company will gather all European distributors in a big meeting about OP. WE WILL HAVE NEWS THIS MONTH!

Can you just accept that you have to wait a few more weeks (maybe just _two_ more weeks!) and stop destroying every topic there is on Pokégym about anything you desire?

Ukpokemonpro, I understand where your frustration comes from, and why. But you need to stop firing around angry and sarcastic comments all over the place. Actually, all of us European players need to stop that.

Sorry for this very long off-topic post, 'Pop. But I just felt this was something I desperately needed to say. Maybe it destroyed another topic (sorry, SteveP) but it might help the 'Gym as a whole.

NoPoke

10/03/2003, 01:24 PM

Lovely how the European players do that.

Another rule which was set forth is that instead of a mulligan, if all you have is a fossil in your hand, it is your choice whether or not you mulligan.

Interesting.

There, that was actually on topic.

Meganium45

You are incorrect meganium: there is no mention of a fossil counting as a basic in the floor rules.

Its a good catch though as it most certainly should be in there. Since without it you cannot start with a lone fossil. Like I said good catch: its often hardest to see what is missing.

It needs an additional rule in the Pre game Setup section. Something like.

During setup it is your choice if a fossil trainer card is considered to be a basic pokemon or a trainer for the purposes of resolving muligans.

Michel

10/03/2003, 01:58 PM

I hope Pop will not delete this post even if I'm going to talk about Europe ... it's information, and nothing else ;)

Answer to the YGO question. Konami is very clear about the cards authorized at official tournaments in Europe : only European cards are allowed. That means that cards released in Japan or in the USA are forbidden. You can recognize the cards at the number which includes a letter in Europe (E for English, F for France, ...). Two sets have been released in Europe, 7 in the USA and a lot more in Japan.

What happened in Belgium at the qualifier for Worlds ? The belgian distributor (who distributes Pokemon too) who ran the tournament is distributor of the cards in English only. Cards in French are also sold officially in the country but distributed by another company. The distributor has first decided to ban non English European cards at the tournament, which was against the Konami official rules.
After complains of a player who wanted to see the international rules respected, and as they didn't want to authorize cards in French, they've changed the format 8 days before the tournament and changed it from contructed to sealed. The language problem was 'solved'.
Tournaments run by the French YGO distributor may be played with cards released in Europe in any language (English, French, German, ...) which is according to the Konami rules.

For Pokemon, since the last Wizards language ruling, things were very clear. You may play cards in any language since the day of release in the country.

I don't want to talk about the question of date, but about the language.
It is very clear that, in Europe, a player must have the possibility to play cards in any language. I've already played in Belgium (Dutch and French), Holland (Dutch), France (French), Spain (Spanish), Italy (Italian), England (English), USA (English). How do you want me to build a deck if I have to play cards in the local languages ? :confused:
Buy copies of the cards in local languages ? Forget it :lol:

Isn't it easy to say that cards may be played in any language and that the English version is the reference ?

Date of release ? Not a problem anymore as the next sets will be released Worldwide on the same day ;) :clap:

ScythKing

10/03/2003, 07:32 PM

You are incorrect meganium: there is no mention of a fossil counting as a basic in the floor rules.[/i]
Maybe not in the floor rules but I too remember reading it somewhere in the new stuff. Maybe the user guide from a theme deck... maybe in some of the TO stuff we were sent.

NoPoke

10/04/2003, 01:59 AM

ScythKing... you are correct that the new themedecks have the rule that you can start with a fossil if you wish, they also have a different way of resolving muligans to that detailed in the floor rules.

As A HJ, DCI TO, Reporter expert, premiere Event Organiser, Rules Geek. I can only emphasize that the floor rules MUST NOT be 'subject to interpretation' especially as to which bits apply and which bits do not.

Tournament play has always differed from casual play practice. It is the floor rules that specify how a tournament should be conducted.

It seems clear that the floor rules were checked without any knowledge of the new "fossils can be basics" rule. A very significant change that should be in the tournament rules. I have even proposed a small ammendment.

Its probably me and I've misunderstood the purpose of the thread... But aren't we trying to ensure that we have a set of clear, concise, precise, and inclusive, floor rules for us all to use?

ScythKing

10/04/2003, 09:18 AM