TT - Calm Down!

[dancingaway]

Trollandtoad.com have got their EX pre-orders up for Dark Explorers. Goddam it's annoying. Darkrai ex is $50! This is silly. Nobody knows if he'll be good. All is does is fuel hype and push up prices to silly levels before the card even ships!

Raikou was $10 (and $15) but sold out quickly. Tornadus in also only $10 (and $15) so clearly they're not completely well informed.

Does anyone else think this is a little silly? By all means charge more for cards that are better but artificially pushing up prices for unreleased cards to such ridiculous levels really grinds my gears!!

For the record, i like TT and i use them a lot. They're reliable, (usually) cheap and ship fast, even to the UK. I would highly recommend them. I just think that the Mewtwo pre-order debacle was stupid and it's happening again!

Here's my suggestion: Charge maybe $20 for all the EXs and then increase or decrease prices according to actual sales, rather than acting on and fuelling hype and trying to artificially create demand!

[Raen]

They raise their prices when people preorder them en masse; don't preorder and the prices don't go up.

Seriously, people need to stop complaining about these things. T and T raises prices entirely based on demand; if enough people are willing to pay $50 for Darkrai they will charge them $50. If you aren't willing to buy for that price, then don't. That simple.

[King Piplup]

Just an FYI, Darkrai's prices WERE based on people continually buying them...

(And notice that since nobody bought any at $50, they dropped the price...Supply and demand, it's that simple)

[raichuforyou]

If they sell it high they win and don't lose anything. If they sell it too low they are missing out on potential profit. I'm sure they will adjust the price accordingly when the set comes out.

[Tagrineth]

Here's my suggestion: Charge maybe $20 for all the EXs and then increase or decrease prices according to actual sales, rather than acting on and fuelling hype and trying to artificially create demand!

Herp derp they do, the Darkrai preorder went up like a month ago and already got drove up by initial preorders.

[Skitty]

Herp derp they do, the Darkrai preorder went up like a month ago and already got drove up by initial preorders.

I agree. I saw it on T&T for $15 back then. But I didn't get any because I much prefer the FA versions. That and I didn't expect it to rise so much.

[yankeezone13]

They raise their prices when people preorder them en masse; don't preorder and the prices don't go up.

Seriously, people need to stop complaining about these things. T and T raises prices entirely based on demand; if enough people are willing to pay $50 for Darkrai they will charge them $50. If you aren't willing to buy for that price, then don't. That simple.

To expand on this(even though it has been explained in too many other topics)what T&T does is they have their starting price based on the cards rarity. Their staring price for all of the regular EX's started at $10, but they only sell 16-20 for that price. When they sell all of those, they bump up the price. Darkrai started at $10, and kept going up. The only EX I believe didn't start at $10 was Mewtwo, but could be mistaken.

And on a side note, getting Raikou at $10 each is a hard deal to pass up
*hangs head in shame for contributing to the price bump*

[Miamisportsfan45]

Guess it's time for me to start buying Raikou EX's on T&T now, then sell them once the hype skyrockets like it did Mewtwo. Smart investing?

[Freudinio]

Guess it's time for me to start buying Raikou EX's on T&T now, then sell them once the hype skyrockets like it did Mewtwo. Smart investing?

Forget the stockmarket, that's where the money is at!

[Miamisportsfan45]

Forget the stockmarket, that's where the money is at!

It becomes the sad truth when you've done this with Mewtwo's and made over a $200 profit on those alone. :tongue:

[King Piplup]

Took me 20 min even get on the site...FA Tornadus/Raikou are up to 30, Regular are at 25

[vaporeon]

This is the reason why 'poor' players can't win or play or trade for cards needed to do well because T&T keeps doing this. There's no need for a card to be over 15 at most. It's also annoying that the company does nothing about this. Releasing mewtwo ex in a tin or blister pack fixes the price almost over night.

[King Piplup]

This is the reason why 'poor' players can't win or play or trade for cards needed to do well because T&T keeps doing this. There's no need for a card to be over 15 at most. It's also annoying that the company does nothing about this. Releasing mewtwo ex in a tin or blister pack fixes the price almost over night.

As much as I'd like to agree, it's not like Troll and Toad is STARTING the price at absurd levels. The players are buying them, so I can't blame Troll and Toad for raising the price. T&T is just going by the age old business principle. The more demand there is, the more they can charge for it. Proof of concept, Darkrai EX dropped down to $45 this morning. This didn't happen because T&T decided the card was worth less; it happened because nobody was buying the card at $50. Nobody buys it, the price drops. People buy it, the price rises, end of story.

The players want to buy cards cheap as dirt, and T&T wants to make money.

It just so happens both of these can't happen at once, and T&T is the one with the cards, not us.

tldr; Don't hype, don't preorder, and this won't be an issue.

[DJGigabyte]

A bit of top secret info here guys, not sure I should be spreading it around.

But, rumour has it, that Troll & Toad isn't the only place that you can buy cards from.

Keep it under your hats.

[Freudinio]

A bit of top secret info here guys, not sure I should be spreading it around.

But, rumour has it, that Troll & Toad isn't the only place that you can buy cards from.

Keep it under your hats.

Obvious trap is obvious!

[DJGigabyte]

Basically, my point is, if you think T&T's price is too high, go and buy it cheaper somewhere else. If you can't buy it cheaper anywhere else, then the price isn't too high.

Also, if you are going to be the kind of person who insists that they must have a card the very instant it comes out, then I have no sympathy for you. Cards are never made legal until after the set is officially released, and before that there are two-three weeks of pre-releases.

Even if the tournament that you need the card for is a week after the set is released, then that still gives you three weeks to obtain the card from the start of prereleases. As soon as prereleases start, there will be some people selling the cards you want, whether on forum, eBay, wherever. Other online stores who don't do pre-orders will also start to stock them. Most of the time, you'll be able to get a cheaper deal from somewhere.

[FrostyFluxy]

Couldn't have said it better Dan. :thumb:

This is the reason why 'poor' players can't win

- Cards don't make the players win, the players make the cards win

If you can't win. Get better.

[Freudinio]

Couldn't have said it better Dan. :thumb:



- Cards don't make the players win, the players make the cards win

If you can't win. Get better.

If only things were that simple.

[King Piplup]

40 FA

30 Reg

I'm going to bet they finish 70 and 60 respectively.

[vaporeon]

Couldn't have said it better Dan. :thumb:



- Cards don't make the players win, the players make the cards win

If you can't win. Get better.

A players wallet should not decide if they can win or not. Tell this to the same people who have kids playing that can't afford the cards needed to be competitive with.

---------- Post added 04/12/2012 at 03:27 PM ----------

As much as I'd like to agree, it's not like Troll and Toad is STARTING the price at absurd levels. The players are buying them, so I can't blame Troll and Toad for raising the price. T&T is just going by the age old business principle. The more demand there is, the more they can charge for it. Proof of concept, Darkrai EX dropped down to $45 this morning. This didn't happen because T&T decided the card was worth less; it happened because nobody was buying the card at $50. Nobody buys it, the price drops. People buy it, the price rises, end of story.

The players want to buy cards cheap as dirt, and T&T wants to make money.

It just so happens both of these can't happen at once, and T&T is the one with the cards, not us.

tldr; Don't hype, don't preorder, and this won't be an issue.

The problem is T&T has control over what the cards prices are. Raikou EX went up 10 bucks in the last hour. Not 5 but 10. Same with Tornadus EX. I'm glad I pre-ordered some while I did but I only did it so I can have playable cards without having to break the bank. Its the reason I don't have Mewtwos and thats because I can't afford them.

[baby mario]

A players wallet should not decide if they can win or not. Tell this to the same people who have kids playing that can't afford the cards needed to be competitive with

But it does.

Why? Because Pokemon TCG is part of a commercial business. It's not a charity for people who need a cheap TCG. It's not a sport, or a community service.

Not being able to afford the cards is harsh, but not being able to afford things is just a part of life.

That said, Pokemon is STILL cheaper than most TCGs. Trading and borrowing cards from friends can save a ton of money as well.

[sdrawkcab]

40 FA


30 Reg

I'm going to bet they finish 70 and 60 respectively.

for which, darkrai or raikou?

[vaporeon]

But it does.

Why? Because Pokemon TCG is part of a commercial business. It's not a charity for people who need a cheap TCG. It's not a sport, or a community service.

Not being able to afford the cards is harsh, but not being able to afford things is just a part of life.

That said, Pokemon is STILL cheaper than most TCGs. Trading and borrowing cards from friends can save a ton of money as well.

You can't use that argument. It's like a store raising the price of a laptop 300 bucks at a store because it keeps selling out or even with video games at Game Stop. What T&T is doing is not good for the game. TPCi or whoever needs to address this.

Yes I do agree that Pokemon is a pretty cheap in regards to others but on what grounds though. Every ultra rare is valued extremely high compared with every other card in the game. This makes trading very hard and makes it unfair for the younger group looking to get the card.

T&T needs to back down 45 bucks for a card is crazy and Pokemon needs to do something about this.

---------- Post added 04/12/2012 at 03:52 PM ----------

Basically, my point is, if you think T&T's price is too high, go and buy it cheaper somewhere else. If you can't buy it cheaper anywhere else, then the price isn't too high.

Also, if you are going to be the kind of person who insists that they must have a card the very instant it comes out, then I have no sympathy for you. Cards are never made legal until after the set is officially released, and before that there are two-three weeks of pre-releases.

Even if the tournament that you need the card for is a week after the set is released, then that still gives you three weeks to obtain the card from the start of prereleases. As soon as prereleases start, there will be some people selling the cards you want, whether on forum, eBay, wherever. Other online stores who don't do pre-orders will also start to stock them. Most of the time, you'll be able to get a cheaper deal from somewhere.

The thing is most website go by T&T's prices. Even most card shops do. On top of that, most players go by T&T prices.

[baby mario]

You can't use that argument. It's like a store raising the price of a laptop 300 bucks at a store because it keeps selling out or even with video games at Game Stop. What T&T is doing is not good for the game. TPCi or whoever needs to address this.

Yes I do agree that Pokemon is a pretty cheap in regards to others but on what grounds though. Every ultra rare is valued extremely high compared with every other card in the game. This makes trading very hard and makes it unfair for the younger group looking to get the card.

T&T needs to back down 45 bucks for a card is crazy and Pokemon needs to do something about this.

T&T are simply doing what the market is telling them to do.

TPCI can't do anything about it. What should they do? Refuse to supply T&T? Would that even be legal?

Yeah I agree it sucks, but there is nothing anyone can do about it short of players refusing to buy at those prices (and we all know that's not gonna happen) or another retailer coming in to undercut them.

T&T are a business and trying to maximise their profits. Why would they sell for less than they can get?

[DJGigabyte]

One simple answer is, if you can't afford Mewtwo or Darkrai, play a deck that doesn't use Mewtwo or Darkrai.

As far as I know, Durant is still a pretty competitive deck, and that runs solely on commons and uncommons (one rare if you include Rotom, which most do).

This is pretty much the only game where a deck like this exists, I don't think YGO or Magic have any decks built around cheap, non-rares which still remain competitive.

What T&T is doing has no effect on the game, what they are doing is running a business. If T&T got shut down (and the rest of the online card stores), then the only place to get cards would be eBay. Then rather than having a store whcih offered the cards, you'd only have people opening packs and selling them.

$45 is not crazy for a highly competitive and desirable card, and Pokemon does not need to do anything about it.

A healthy secondary market just proves the popularity of the game.

[vaporeon]

T&T are simply doing what the market is telling them to do.

TPCI can't do anything about it. What should they do? Refuse to supply T&T? Would that even be legal?

Yeah I agree it sucks, but there is nothing anyone can do about it short of players refusing to buy at those prices (and we all know that's not gonna happen) or another retailer coming in to undercut them.

T&T are a business and trying to maximise their profits. Why would they sell for less than they can get?

I don't expect TPCi to refuse supply to them. I expect them to lift the burden of price of these cards on us. After all, they don't profit from Mewtwo EX being 80 bucks. What I expect them to do is release cards like that as Tin promos or blister pack promos as a 'we'll still supply to you but will continue to do this' type thing when the price for a card becomes over the top.

[DJGigabyte]

Releasing cards as promos if a price becomes too high is a great way for TPCi to annoy people who had already paid for the cards.

In the end you'd get people too scared to make the investment.

[vaporeon]

One simple answer is, if you can't afford Mewtwo or Darkrai, play a deck that doesn't use Mewtwo or Darkrai.

As far as I know, Durant is still a pretty competitive deck, and that runs solely on commons and uncommons (one rare if you include Rotom, which most do).

This is pretty much the only game where a deck like this exists, I don't think YGO or Magic have any decks built around cheap, non-rares which still remain competitive.

What T&T is doing has no effect on the game, what they are doing is running a business. If T&T got shut down (and the rest of the online card stores), then the only place to get cards would be eBay. Then rather than having a store whcih offered the cards, you'd only have people opening packs and selling them.

$45 is not crazy for a highly competitive and desirable card, and Pokemon does not need to do anything about it.

A healthy secondary market just proves the popularity of the game.

A deck does not not need Darkrai to be competitive. Not everyone wants to play Durant. Mewtwo is needed to be competitive or you get swept by them. 45 bucks for a single card is insane when you know the price will continue to go up. I expect Raikou EX to be 60 by the end of the day and it will only go up. For once, don't think about yourself but the health of the game.

People are not going to play if they can't afford the cards they need to be competitive with.

[DJGigabyte]

I understand that not everyone wants to play Durant, but if thy are restricted by funds, then the option is there. If you only have the money to afford Durant, then the choice becomes Durant or a cheap rogue deck. If you refuse to use either of these when you can afford anything better then you're only hurting yourself.

If Raikou EX is up to $60 by the end of the day, it is because of this thread, and this thread alone. People are reading crazy predictions of price increase, they start panic buying the card, the crazy price increase happens.

I am not just thinking about myself, I am mainly a collector, I very rarely spend money on competitive cards, but I still managed to go to Regionals with a deck containing 2 Zekrom Ex, Mewtwo ex among others, just from borrowing from friends.

The health of the game is not decreasing, and won't decrease purely on people having to choose to play a cheaper deck option.

[baby mario]

I don't expect TPCi to refuse supply to them. I expect them to lift the burden of price of these cards on us. After all, they don't profit from Mewtwo EX being 80 bucks. What I expect them to do is release cards like that as Tin promos or blister pack promos as a 'we'll still supply to you but will continue to do this' type thing when the price for a card becomes over the top.

They profit from NEX selling out as everyone chases Mewtwos ;)

What you are asking is completely unrealistic. There simply isn't time to respond to secondary market price jumps by releasing promos like that.

Besides, why would anyone buy stuff from the set if they knew any valuable or chase cards were going to be a $5 promo by next week?

The only solution which I can see working would be if TPCI released cards at the same time as Japan, and they were super careful about not leaking scans.

Actually, I would like that for a lot of reasons. Cards get hyped for so long in advance that people are bored with them by the time they are released.

[Freudinio]

One simple answer is, if you can't afford Mewtwo or Darkrai, play a deck that doesn't use Mewtwo or Darkrai.

As far as I know, Durant is still a pretty competitive deck, and that runs solely on commons and uncommons (one rare if you include Rotom, which most do).

This is pretty much the only game where a deck like this exists, I don't think YGO or Magic have any decks built around cheap, non-rares which still remain competitive.

What T&T is doing has no effect on the game, what they are doing is running a business. If T&T got shut down (and the rest of the online card stores), then the only place to get cards would be eBay. Then rather than having a store whcih offered the cards, you'd only have people opening packs and selling them.

$45 is not crazy for a highly competitive and desirable card, and Pokemon does not need to do anything about it.

A healthy secondary market just proves the popularity of the game.

Yep, even the WoW TCG where I play competitively have issues, while you can build somewhat competitive with mediocre rares, most top tier decks still run ~1k$.

[Charranitar]

Don't really see the complaint about what Troll and Toad is doing, it's just supply and demand economics at work.

Troll and Toad runs their store website on the Amazon Marketplace software, and the card prices on the websites are controlled by algorithms (how much people are buying, how fast they're selling, etc.) all affect the price.

They're really doing us a favor by even making them available for $10 to start with. They could easily start cards like Darkrai or Tornadus EX at $30, because that's where the market will take them, but by providing them at $10 to start, they allow some players to get good deals on the cards.

I got 2 Darkrai EX for $25, 4 Tornadus EX for $10 and a FA for $14, 1 Groudon EX for $10, FA for $14, 3 Raikou EX for $10 and a FA for $14. That's not too bad imo going into pre-releases. Just need to find 2 Darkrai, and maybe 1 more Groudon in my boxes/pre-releases and I'll be good to go.

And releasing every good card as a tin promo would be bad for business. Why would anyone buy boxes or packs if they could just get all the good cards for $5 each?

And this game isn't all that expensive. I'm a college student, working full time with no parental support, and I'm able to afford any competitive cards I need. When I graduate in a month and get a better paying job, I won't even have to really budget some money away to afford the cards.

If you really can't afford the cards, and you really want to play, you might want to consider what you can do to improve your life situation to be able to afford luxuries like this.

[Team CREAM]

IMO, I think those prices are damn good right now. Stop complaining.

[King Piplup]

Prices up again by the way...

On another note, what kind of attack name is VOLT BOLT?!?!?

[flygon_frank_66]

And Troll & Toad is loving all it's sudden publicity.

[Steelix_281]

I just signed up for this forum and just recently started playing again. I'm a college student and where I can see people complaining about a $40+ card it isn't T&T fault its all the players. They keep buying at whatever price T&T puts it at and they leave it like that for awhile and then T&T pushes their luck again by trying to make the most money per card. All they are doing is simple capitalism making the most money they can while in a private company. I mean they have to make money so they can pay their employees, all the TCG companies for their inventory, and pay for their warehouses or buildings. Like I stated before I'm just a college student but I could even afford some of the more expensive cards if I ever get to the point where I want to start playing on a competitive level. If you can't afford the really expensive cards than go with a cheap competitive deck or use your brain and see if you can come up with a different deck to beat the more expensive ones its that simple.

[Tagrineth]

This is the reason why 'poor' players can't win or play or trade for cards needed to do well because T&T keeps doing this. There's no need for a card to be over 15 at most. It's also annoying that the company does nothing about this. Releasing mewtwo ex in a tin or blister pack fixes the price almost over night.

Are you somehow implying that Troll and Toad is the sole reason that cards have value above $15?

OK look at it this way. You get three EX in a box that has a $120 MSRP.

Generally card prices balance out so that if you were to resell everything you got in the box, you make back close to what you paid (assuming you don't pull all the worst cards, or whatnot).

If all EX were $15 (and maybe $20 for the FA), each box's SRs would amount to a paltry $50. The investment would be trashed and nobody would resell singles.

Anyway, it's all supply and demand. High demand off the same supply means prices go up. It's that simple.

Also, I scored five FA Raikou EX for $14 each. Booya.

[vaporeon]

Are you somehow implying that Troll and Toad is the sole reason that cards have value above $15?

OK look at it this way. You get three EX in a box that has a $120 MSRP.

Generally card prices balance out so that if you were to resell everything you got in the box, you make back close to what you paid (assuming you don't pull all the worst cards, or whatnot).

If all EX were $15 (and maybe $20 for the FA), each box's SRs would amount to a paltry $50. The investment would be trashed and nobody would resell singles.

Anyway, it's all supply and demand. High demand off the same supply means prices go up. It's that simple.

Also, I scored five FA Raikou EX for $14 each. Booya.

Yeah, thats about right. I did by the last FA Raikou ex they had. I did go crazy on the preorders so its as much of my fault as everyone elses.

[cookymonster]

insider trading!!!!!! its the 90s all over

[Skitty]

Are you somehow implying that Troll and Toad is the sole reason that cards have value above $15?

OK look at it this way. You get three EX in a box that has a $120 MSRP.

Generally card prices balance out so that if you were to resell everything you got in the box, you make back close to what you paid (assuming you don't pull all the worst cards, or whatnot).

If all EX were $15 (and maybe $20 for the FA), each box's SRs would amount to a paltry $50. The investment would be trashed and nobody would resell singles.

Anyway, it's all supply and demand. High demand off the same supply means prices go up. It's that simple.

Also, I scored five FA Raikou EX for $14 each. Booya.

Actually it would be close to that if the EXs were $15 each. If you're going by the prices that some card shops sell boxes at ($79 for ND for example). If you're going by MSRP then blisters usually have strange odds so that throws the whole value out of the window anyway. :tongue:

2 regular EXs per box $15 each = $30
1 FA EX $20
36 RHs ¢15 each = $5.50
12 holo rares $1 each = $12
Non-foil bulk ¢3 each x 290ish = $9

Total of $76.50. So even counting the good/playable trainers at ¢3 each and the good/playable holos/RHs as cheap bulk you're still almost getting back the price of a box. So if you factor in that at least some cards will be worth more than the cheap bulk prices, then you're already guaranteed to get more than what you payed for the box, even if you count every EX as only $15 or $20 each.

[sdrawkcab]

There are only 190 commons in booster box

[espeon200]

There are only 190 commons in booster box

Non-foil bulk includes regular rares, commons, and uncommomns. Of those, you're guaranteed a certain amount of commons and uncommons (180 and 108 respectively). The variation would be on how many of your rare cards were foil, but we're assuming 12 since foil odds are roughly 1 in 3 packs. That means your non-foil bulk will be around 212 cards per booster box.

[dark wobbuffet]

If more stuff was playable and less junk was printed, we would win as card prices would be lower and there would be a more interesting meta, and pokemon would win people would be more likely to buy boosters, knowing theyll get at least something good rather than just buying singles and also because more people might take up the game.

[TheDarkTwins]

I think you will see a better balance with this set. I wouldn't be shocked if all the Ex are 20$ from this set because there is no true $50+ card. I still don't understand why there is no Suicune Ex.

Drew

[Nanashii]

$45 for regular Raikou EX and 55 for the Full Art? (https://encrypted-tbn2.google.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSLnRSim7Y4xmtU4Gnl7pOelf3xh7RwF v2vIjoJ4HjbDXwqr2ripw)

[TheDancingPeanut]

I am pretty sure their prices are calculated by automation.

[ashestowake]

I spen 3 hours typing them a mail with 900 cards to sell them and they sent this back to not only me but they attached 4 other people mailing them to it too "It appears some of your cards do not follow our websites formant, please retype and send again thx" and Im pretty sure I did everything thier website wanted.

Pissed me off.

[RichD]

In my dreams, this is what happens. All of the people that argue that the price of Pokemon cards in the secondary market is too high must band together, pool their money, and start a company that sells Pokemon cards at the price they think is fair. Moreover, these people are going to have to go big because if they can't match T&T and the rest for inventory then people will just buy cheap and resell at mark-up. A big competitor undercutting the others on price is about the only thing that will shift these price points.

[FrostyFluxy]

RichD, that is business. Troll & Toad are a business, there not going to make money sellling at the lowest possible price they can so we all can buy them cheaply. Business' tend to go for what they can get. As T&T are so popular many people will buy from them for what ever the price. This doesnt mean its right, as Waynegg has in his sig. TrollandToad is Not a price guide. I really don't see why everyone here is making such a fuss about this. If you don't like the prices, go somewhere else.
Posted with Mobile style...

[cookymonster]

RichD, that is business. Troll & Toad are a business, there not going to make money sellling at the lowest possible price they can so we all can buy them cheaply. Business' tend to go for what they can get. As T&T are so popular many people will buy from them for what ever the price. This doesnt mean its right, as Waynegg has in his sig. TrollandToad is Not a price guide. I really don't see why everyone here is making such a fuss about this. If you don't like the prices, go somewhere else.
Posted with Mobile style...
+1 on this trollandtoll is a business and business are meant to mkae money so i dont know why people complain tyt follows the main rule of business and that is buy low and sell high so as long as the demand is there tyt will keep up with those prices if you dont like it buy a booster box or trade for the cards

[raichuforyou]

I don't see why they would sell a card for $10 when someone else is happy to wave $40 in their face for the same card.
Supply and demand folks, it will NEVER change. No use complaining about it.

[Skitty]

I don't see why they would sell a card for $10 when someone else is happy to wave $40 in their face for the same card.
Supply and demand folks, it will NEVER change. No use complaining about it.

You mean like how shiny Catcher was $20 on there a couple days ago and now it's $60? That's also because they aren't even going to ship out many (or even any) of the ones that sold for $20. I have a few friends that have bought cards from them at their early/cheap prices and they ended up recieving an email saying they they "haven't recieved enough product to fufil the order". Oh really? Well that explaned why they still had a bunch of those same cards in stock at the expensive price that same day.

In other words, even if you pre-order cards at their early/cheap that doesn't guarantee that you'll recieve them for that price. And thier ToS agrees with it too. :/

Placing an order does not enter into a contract with Troll And Toad until the order is accepted. Troll & Toad may choose to refuse the order, based on lack of inventory, pricing errors, or concerns about payment. Please read the Conditions Of Use for a full explanation of these items.

[ashestowake]

Heres an idea

Dont buy it