Looking for Support for a Kyogre & Groudon LEGEND

[Otaku]

The thread title sums it up pretty well: I would like to explore support for Kyogre & Groudon LEGEND as a viable attacker, in a deck built to accommodate, possibly center around it.

Why would I want to do this? Well, besides my inner Timmy just liking the card, parts of it (pardon the pun) do look quite promising. The attack costs are huge, but look at what you get: five cards milled from the top of your opponent's deck with between 0 and 100 Bench spread damage, or at the cost of five of your own cards milled 0 to 500 points of damage (before other effects).

Obviously there are some huge problems with the card:

1) Speed
2) Reliability

Being a Pokemon LEGEND and requiring four Energy makes setting one up (and re-setting one up) a challenge. The attacks are based on how much Energy is discarded by the attack, so while you're always milling five cards (for either you or your opponent) and unlikely to hit no Energy cards, most of the time you'll hit just one or two.

Then of course further hampering reliability is having just 150 HP when you are complicated to set-up and give two Prizes; a Mewtwo EX is going to be able to OHKO a Kyogre & Groudon LEGEND that just attacked if it can attack at all. Lastly there is that unfortunate :lightning::grass: Weakness; I don't know the current state of Virizion usage, but even if it plummeted I know Zekrom is still heavily played.

So I'd love to hear from people over what support has been tried and how it did, how one thinks it might do now (most of what I found with a quick search and glance was old), and what current and pending support may help. I've got some ideas myself (or I wouldn't have started this) but am out of time. Plus it is probably better if I am mostly responding to others, given how lengthy my post would be addressing everything at once.

Thanks!

[EliGagerNorris]

The fastest way would probably be a combination of Legend Box and Research Record.

Electrode just gives prizes up really quickly, T1 Catcher kill a Voltorb and an Energymite means you are down two prizes, and KGL give two already anyway, so just a Zekrom BW, Thundurus, or Mewtwo only needs to kill off two KGL for the game to end.

[PidgeyCornerFTW]

Feraligatr prime seems like the best option. You can also try a crazy Good Rod / Rotom / research record engine to manipulate the cards on top of your deck then Legend box it out, but it's harder to pull off, obviously.
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[pokesam128]

eleki from oregon in md-on format he ran it with bubble coat and it was really consistent he ran smeargle maybe try electrode but he ended up getting top 8 at a regionals with it

[Electric Spider]

I saw someone running it with Mantine and Feraligatr prime. It ran pretty well. It can get set up turn 2-3 and wrecks benches.

[R D L]

For a battle roads I tried KGL in Ross, it didn't do too bad.

[Raen]

The biggest problem with KGL is that it relies on the opponent having a lot of energy in their deck.

And, usually, people run as little energy in decks as possible. I really don't see KGL being viable unless a deck that uses a lot of energy pops up.

[Miamisportsfan45]

Feraligatr prime seems like the best option. You can also try a crazy Good Rod / Rotom / research record engine to manipulate the cards on top of your deck then Legend box it out, but it's harder to pull off, obviously.
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We think alike... Especially with your Pidgey avatar and it being my favorite Pokemon.

Though, I have to throw in some more options and viability here. Not only would Feraligatr Prime speed up consistency, but along with Junk Arm, Super Rod, Collector, Communication, Research Record, Legend Box, Cheren and other obvious supporters. It could easily work. Maybe Twins as well?

[Otaku]

Should Disruption be included?

The hard part is keeping KGL alive, so that all those attacks add up, right? Should we be trying to spam things like Defender? Lost Remover? Crushing Hammer?

[PidgeyCornerFTW]

Put Gothitelle active to block their trainers while you set up? Lol, or just go with vileplume if you don't mind a slower set up.
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[Otaku]

I actually have been considering a Vileplume build. The problem is that I don't have room for Vileplume, Reuniclus, and Leavanny. ;)

I am still tempted to look for another solution anyway, since any turn my opponent Catcher's up (or snipe) a Solosis or Sewaddle, they aren't KOing KGL.

Seriously: even if I have invested and those are now a Candied Reuniclus or Leavanny, that is one Prize, not two. That's another Mega Tidal Wave... and if the opponent is giving me two Mega Tidal Waves, that's 10 cards from my opponent's deck and anywhere between 0 and 200 points of damage spread across the bench (though I'd probably only expect 40 to 80).

Should this deck essentially be Feraligatr, Kyurem, and Kyogre & Groudon Legend?

[desufnoc]

I think it will have to be Feraligatr, Kyurem, and KGL. I think my decklist would look like this:
13-Pokemon
3-1-2 Feraligatr
2-2 KGL
2-Kyurem
1-Cleffa

33-T/S/S
4-Pokemon Collector
4-PONT
4-Cheren
4-Junk Arm
4-Pokemon Communications
4-Catcher
4-Crushing Hammer
2-Lost Remover
2-Rare Candy
2-Twins
1-Energy Retrieval

Maybe replace the Energy retrieval with switch. Also try to fit room with N. I think this deck would have to be disruptive.


Energy-14
12-Water
2-Rescue

[bullados]

I'd replace the Retrieval with Super Rod in that previous decklist. KGL, despite its massive HP, is rather fragile in the current format, and you're probably gonna lose them a fair bit. You need to get them back.

[Otaku]

I was able to try this build out a few times, and only a few times. It didn't do so well. Just two Gatr make it vulernable to not ever getting Gatr out. My third game, the first I wasn't stuck with a single opening basic... both Gatr were Prized.

Now bad luck is bad luck, but really, if I've got Gatr and Kyurem I've pretty much got my spread covered. Plus I can't access Massive Eruption, and as I found out if I have to take out something active, I'd better be willing to crush my own deck.

I am switching to my other thought: Electrode Prime. I intentionally go down a Prize to attach but that enables Twins if I wasn't already behind a Prize. It also enables rapid attachment of Fighting Energy, allowing me to add either Groudon EX or Terrakion. Groudon EX fits the theme, but of course that's a Pokemon EX, another "two-Prizer". Oh, maybe Landorus. It might be a bit desperate, but at least Landorus who isn't OHKOed might be able to speed itself up. Plus it's Weakness is Water, not Grass. Oh and still does spread.

[Rogue Archetype]

Tried this ages ago. Look at new set and you'll see some support for you idea. Empoleon is a draw and an attacker that only uses one energy. You can think of the Legend as a bonus sweeper. Kyogre EX is a nice play in this.

[PidgeyCornerFTW]

Why not play a Legend Box engine similar to this (http://www.thedeckout.com/2011/11/rayquaza-deoxys-legend-going-rogue.html) (check out the 2nd decklist)

[Otaku]

First things first, you can find the exact list I used (and am now trying to "fix") here (http://pokegym.net/forums/showthread.php?t=163736). Now that it is more than a vague discussion, direct comments for it can be posted on its own deck thread, while general comments are of course best here. Hopefully I am keeping the intent (if not the letter) of the board rules in doing it this way.

Rogue Archetype: Despite building the deck around KGL, it actually already is something of a "bogey 'mon" in the deck; a distraction early game, and devastating sweeper late game. If luck favors and I can get it out early game I will, but yeah I already don't consider it to be the deck's main attacker.
Empoleon is a Stage 2 Pokemon with a shared Lightning Weakness. It also discourages the opponent from filling his/her Bench; good for Massive Eruption but bad for Mega Tidal Wave (and any other spread in the deck). I am not "pooh-poohing" the idea, but explaining my concerns with it up front. I'd like to hear more.

Especially Kyorge EX. I had considered Groudon EX; the first attack is a bit slow if I am powering it up manually and am unwilling or unable to sacrifice another Pokemon. If I get off an early Electrode Prime it is fine. Its first attack doesn't hit overly hard, but it sets up well for its second attack and it has the very desirable Lightning Resistance for this format. The Retreat Cost is pretty brutal, however.

Kyogre EX seems like a nerfed Kyurem. If we are still talking the Feraligatr build, then I can see trying it, though I still dislike being unable to use Massive Eruption (or really hurting my Energy flow including Rainbow or Fighting) and being so heavily Lightning Weak. In the Fighting/Water Electrode build, there isn't room for it and I don't think it brings more to the deck than another Kyurem.

PidgeyCornerFTW: Your screen name is kinda long, I ever tell you that? :lol: I checked out the deck and checked out your link. I don't think I can really adapt that for use with KGL, as it is pretty specific to Fire Energy. Reading the comments apparently the second list is actually the hardest to run and was designed when Noble Victories was only nearly out and not actually out; that's pre-Pokemon EX, and it shows in some comments. 90 HP is pretty much a OHKO past first turn.

I will try to figure out some similar ideas, however. Anyone know of any Pokemon that can self-accelerate Water or Fighting Energy fast enough (and preferably not Evolutions) to make comboing with Shaymin worthwhile? I must thank you though; all this time I had misunderstood the text of Shaymin and thought it was from one Pokemon to another (which was all it really needed for comboing with Pachirisu).

Knowing that, I guess I'll be looking into Floatzel/Shaymin/Kyogre & Groudon LEGEND. It will be hard given the raw set-up involved to get off much earlier than Electrode or Feraligatr, but it has certain advantages over either of them (at least on paper). It also feels like less of a waste including a few Rainbow Energy to shunt over to KGL (conveniently also avoiding said Rainbow Energy damaging KGL).

This also gives me an idea for using Rayquaza & Deoxys LEGEND that I didn't see suggested on The Deck Out. Slugma/Pachirisu/Shaymin engine. *re-checks article* Ah, there it is, but with Eelektrik. Easier to use but slower to set-up, and quite frankly if it is a choice between your normal Eel-centric deck and an RDL build trying to use Slugma... guess what wins in my mind? XD

[PidgeyCornerFTW]

It's not just used for Fire :) The main idea is to use Good Rod, Research Record and Rotom to arrange Legend pieces on top of your deck then Legend Box it out.I've tried it before, and itcan be done, although it's insanely difficult. :D
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[homeofmew]

x1 pichu
2-2 KaGL
3-2-1-1 Vileplme/ Bellosm
3-1-2 reuniclus
1-1 Zerkom ans reshiram Normal
- Seeker
- DCE
- Prism Energy
-Twins

Stall with whatever with pichu, get plume out and
then dce legend, use mega title wave.
use Bellosm to heal, seeker when needed.

you dont knock any of their guys out, you dont need to, deck them out xD

[wulfboy15]

I still run a KGL mill and this is what I use as my set up:
4 Research Record
4 Legend Box
4 Twins
3 Mantine
2 Pichu
2-1-2 Feraligatr
2-2 KGL
1 Cleffa

Then I run things like Switch+Seeker to keep KGL alive a little longer, Interviewer's to get those crucial energies, and Pokegear to fish out the supporters you need (though maybe you could use Random receiver instead since you're guarenteed a supporter)
After that, the Hooligans might be a good choice since your opponent will try to get their energy into their hand (unless it has Eelektrik) and Hooligans can cause massive disruption with a single heads