Alternate Version of the TCG

[untitled]

(Note to mods: if you want to move this to Create-A-Card, that's fine, but I think that the discussion which will come out of it will be more relevant to this forum.)

Lately, I feel like a lot of people have become frustrated with the current format. Big basics are so powerful now that it's more or less pointless to attack with a Stage 2. No point in evolving when you can use a Basic that does the same amount of damage.

Even those who love the format will probably admit that some of the game's past formats were better, and at the very least will admit that there's room for improvement. I have yet to meet anybody who thinks this is the best format the game has ever had.

Admittedly, making the game fast and simple draws a lot more people into it. It's less daunting learning a game that's easy and fast-paced than one that's slow and complex, especially for the little kids the game is marketed towards. This is a great marketing strategy, and it's good they've found a way to make the game so profitable. However, for competitive and casual players who enjoy a slower, more diverse and skill-based format, this is not an ideal format.

About two months ago, I decided I wanted to try to create an ideal format myself. I started creating and excessively testing a bunch of fake cards in an effort to make a game where strategic plays and skill determined the outcome of a vast majority of matches, there are many deck and tech options to choose from, and cards are fun to play with. Obviously, no format can be flawless, but there can still be some great ones. After working for two months, I hope I've created one like that.

I also wanted people to actually be able to play my version of the game. So instead of just creating spoilers like most people in the Create-A-Card section do, I created some (very shoddy and terrible-looking) printable versions of the cards. They can be printed off in the same way as proxies are, and people can play with them with their friends or over Skype. I'm aware that the cards look terrible, but again, the purpose of them is to be usable, easy to make, and practical, not pretty and collectible.

I realize this game won't be for everybody. Many people only enjoy this game because they get a chance to be competitive in a high-risk, high-reward tournament environment and casual play bores them. However, just as many people (if not more) enjoy playing this game because it's so much fun, they get to be creative, and there is a nice blend of skill, creativity, deck choice, and a bit of luck. These are the type of people my game is geared towards. Many people have already expressed a lot of interest in this project, so please don't comment saying how my project will crash and burn because there are no prizes at steak, etc. Even if this happens, your telling me that won't help me avoid it, and I just don't want this thread to go downhill like that.

The biggest question in your mind right now is probably: "Why bother playing with these cards when I can play with cards from past formats?" Well, the answer is simple: if this game gets support and people like it, I plan to create a new set of ~20 cards every 2-3 weeks. This will keep the game fresh, whereas old formats will have the same archetypes every time. They'll never change.

Or maybe, the biggest question in your mind is, "Where can I find these cards?!" Well, the link to the site I'm publishing them on is in my signature (99% sure that's okay; terribly sorry if it isn't).

Please feel free to comment on anything related to this game here, give suggestions about how I could make it better (PLEASE do this if you have any), discuss the metagame or specific cards/decks, or whatever else you want to.

[TRAINER HEZ]

Hey, I think I might have seen you putting these sets together on another site once, good job! I agree with you that the recent format is far too biased towards big Basics, it's sad they've resorted to such strange marketing when the game can easily exist with both slow complex decks AND quick simple decks in the same format. At a glance the sets look really nice, the only thing I don't agree with is bringing Special Dark and Metal back as these types are no longer a limited number of gimmick cards, but fully fledged types. Either all types should get a special energy or none at all.

If you're interested in alternate formats and balanced gameplay, have a look at the Unlimited 150 format. The 100 card singleton decks and the ban / ex list mean the new power-creeped sets are brought down to a similar level to many years worth of sets. See my sig. for the post on this site and the official Facebook page.

P.S. Excavate Sableye FTW! :D

[untitled]

Yeah, the thing about Special Dark/Metal in my version of the game is that unlike in the current format and every format since DP, there are no basic Dark/Metal to go along with them. So even though they get the benefits of the Special Energy, they miss the much greater benefits of having Basic Energy.

But you're right that there are many more Dark and Metal Pokemon now than there used to be. For this reason, I made a way to "generate" basic Dark/Metal Energy without actually having their physical cards in the game, which I'll release in a set or two. Their types not having physical basic energy should balance their having special energy, but I'll definitely consider eventually replacing the special energy with basic energy. Not having the basic Dark/Metal offers some interesting design space, which I wanted to re-introduce the Special Energy versions.

Also, thanks for the response/feedback. :D

[bullados]

Some of those cards are exact reprints.

Drayden = Celio's Network
Iris = N = Admin
Max Revive = Pokemon Retriever
Old Gateau = Windstorm
Steven = Steven's Advice
PokeToy = Warp Point
X Attack = PlusPower


Fluffy Tail: Where do the pre-evolutions go?

I like the specific wording on Mend.

I hate Double Colorless. It should have never been reprinted. That one card unbalances the entire format.

Advantage Energy should include a clause about Basic Energy.

Look over the history of the game. There are a bunch of effects that you've used here that have historical names. Pokepedia is a great resource for this kind of information.

Overall, a decent start. I'd do a bit more with x2 Weakness on power cards like EX and Star, but this looks solid.

[untitled]

Yeah, I didn't want to re-invent the wheel. Warp Point, Celio's Network, etc. are some of the best-designed cards the game has seen imo. No point in trying to fix something that's not broken. I'm trying to avoid reprinting attackers and combos, but reprinting some cards was somewhat necessary. I would have kept the card names the same, but there are no sprites for a lot of them. I didn't want to have to deal with getting permission to use the artwork.

With Fluffy Tail, the pre-evolutions go back into the deck too. I worded it following Rescue Energy, which doesn't specify where they go, so I figured it was okay. Was this incorrect?

I've noticed many people hate DCE. I hate it too, in the current format. However, I like the design space it offers. Originally, I had Double Rainbow Energy, but it was hard to "control" its power. When DCE's benefits are given primarily to basics that are already broken without it, it certainly unbalances the entire format. However, when its power is given to cards whose power if "nerfed" according to the additional acceleration they're given, it's actually a very balanced card. For example, Venusaur-EX can't use DCE, but it's very powerful to make up for it. Whereas Victreebel is an average card, but it makes up for it with the ability to use DCE.

I'll definitely look through PokePedia more. I wasn't too concerned with keeping the names consistent since it's time-consuming to do so, but if a lot of people care about it, I'll definitely try to.

Thanks for the comment!

[Otaku]

@_@

I sent you a PM of what I originally posted.

Long story short I fear this shall be a short lived experiment, as you seem intent on repeating that which didn't work for TPC. =/

Since it is coming up here as well, already "public", I've got to make a point. You wanted a certain mechanic (multiple Energy from a single Special Energy card) and when you tested, it gave problems. You reluctantly accepted part of what I had explained and laid out. Now Bullados points out the same thing and while you have an answer, it literally is "I totally will only make perfect cards". Instead of accepting that DCE is overpowered without nerfing the rest of the game... you're nerfing the rest of the game. -_-

[bullados]

DCE is a broken card. It doesn't matter whether or not you think so. It is. It has absolutely defined every format it's ever been printed in, whether or not the "good" attackers could utilize it or not. It's the only costless energy acceleration the game has ever seen. It doesn't matter if you try to balance the format's attackers around it. It's still a broken card.

I'm also not thrilled with the new Scramble you put forth (I prefer the DRE/Scramble cross), but it's probably more balanced than the original version.

[untitled]

Double Rainbow Energy's cost was so small that it was often irrelevant. That type of "nerf" can be built into cards that abuse DCE.

However, I can certainly see some of your guys' points. I ask, however, that you give this a chance the way I've laid it out. I spent two months testing various methods of acceleration, and I liked this method much better than anything else I tested.

I'm very open to change, however. I'm very new at this and inevitably, I will make some/many mistakes, especially at the beginning. If I do, I'll happily try to fix them with erratas or whatever else is possible, as I said in the "Welcome!" post. I have no training at this, and I'm doing it in my free time, so problems will most likely arise. I'll just do my best to fix them and avoid similar mistakes in the future.

Although I would like it if you guys could give me some specific examples within the sets of cards that DCE makes too good. I can understand the argument for why you guys would dislike DCE, but if it's not creating any problems within the sets I've made, I see no reason to change it.

I'll make a more detailed response later about why DCE seemed like the best solution, but I'm about to go to bed now and any post I attempt tomake will probably be incomprehensible.

[Otaku]

untitled, I want your project to succeed, but remember it is your job to sell us on it. Right now it isn't very convincing because guys like me and Bullados love analyzing this game. I might be completely wrong on my fundamental assumptions, but you've got to convince me of that. Changing someone's foundational views is quite a challenge!

Until then, it looks like you're going down the same road as the real game. The real game isn't as good as it could be either. Plus a lot of justifications you've given me over PM and the like also justify the actual TCG's current state. If it comes down to choosing between the actual game and a fan's project, I think you might be at a disadvantage. ;)

Oh and quick point: DRE's costs were never irrelevant, because part of it's cost was being unable to work with Basic Pokemon and Pokemon-ex. If you mean the "-10" damage, it hurt me a lot back in the day, but I see your point. I don't think you're seeing mine or Bullados' point: Energy based Energy acceleration is a bad thing. XD

[untitled]

untitled, I want your project to succeed, but remember it is your job to sell us on it. Right now it isn't very convincing because guys like me and Bullados love analyzing this game. I might be completely wrong on my fundamental assumptions, but you've got to convince me of that. Changing someone's foundational views is quite a challenge!

Until then, it looks like you're going down the same road as the real game. The real game isn't as good as it could be either. Plus a lot of justifications you've given me over PM and the like also justify the actual TCG's current state. If it comes down to choosing between the actual game and a fan's project, I think you might be at a disadvantage. ;)
Guys like you and Bullados will probably always love analyzing the game. I don't see any way to change that, nor do I want to; I love analyzing the game too. However, I fail to see how your love of analyzing the game invalidates my project. :/

I understand that I have to sell the game. I'm working on it. It is incredibly hard to please everybody. Believe it or not, I know quite a few people who love DCE, DRE, Scramble, un-nerfed Rare Candy, etc. Keep in mind that your views do not necessarily represent the majority. I can certainly try to change your fundamental views of the game, but as you said it's hard. You haven't been able to change my views of the game much.
Oh and quick point: DRE's costs were never irrelevant, because part of it's cost was being unable to work with Basic Pokemon and Pokemon-ex. If you mean the "-10" damage, it hurt me a lot back in the day, but I see your point. I don't think you're seeing mine or Bullados' point: Energy based Energy acceleration is a bad thing. XD
Bullados literally just said he likes "the DRE/Scramble cross". I don't think I'm alone when I say Energy-based Energy acceleration is not a bad thing.

DRE's inability to work with Basic Pokemon and Pokemon-EX was in fact not a cost, but a restriction. They are two entirely different concepts. DCE also has restrictions; it is more or less incompatible with any card that doesn't have CC in its attack cost. The difference is that DRE's restriction is set in stone whereas DCE's restriction is "written" on other cards in the sets. DCE is more flexible, which is all-in-all a good thing.

Also, until you guys actually play this game, I'm going to have trouble believing your arguments. Sure, DCE was a pretty bad card for every format it's been in. However, imagine a much simpler situation where all Pokemon do 60 damage. Introduce a tool for Grass types that increases the damage they do by 20, and suddenly Grass becomes unfairly better than the other types. However, in a situation where all Pokemon do 60 damage but Grass types do 50 and the same tool is introduced, the type is balanced to be about as good as the other types. The additional 10 damage the Grass types now have the ability to do is balanced by the need for an unsearchable trainer card being attached in order to do so. Clearly, the tool is broken in one format but balanced in another. The same thing applies here, at least in my testing.

[Human Destroyer]

Sure, DCE was a pretty bad card for every format it's been in.

Excuse me what?

Anyway, looks interesting enough, although personally I would have just reprinted the current cards we have with balancing changes. ;)

I wish you luck and hope you eventually achieve your goal.

[Otaku]

Bad as in "broken", not bad as in "ineffective". ;)

Don't want that point to get swallowed up so I won't comment on anything else in this post, and since I really do want untitled's project to succeed, perhaps it is best that I refrain from commenting further on my concerns anyway.

[untitled]

Excuse me what?

Anyway, looks interesting enough, although personally I would have just reprinted the current cards we have with balancing changes. ;)

I wish you luck and hope you eventually achieve your goal.
Meh, but then ultimately people would end up playing with decks very similar to the ones already existing. I wanted to offer a completely new format. Thanks, though.

[untitled]

The site has been updated with Set #5: Lost Legends! Let me know what you think of it.