Rules: Time called, finishing final turn

[NoPoke]

copied from the ASK THE MTS forum... http://www.pokegym.net/showthread.php?p=17094#post17094

In the new Tournament rules, it is said that when time is called, the active player is allowed to finish his or her turn.

Here is the question: If the active player's Pokémon is Poisoned, has 10 HP left and both players are tied on prizes. The active player has no way to retreat against it (say the Defending Pokémon is Cradily and the active player has no cards in hand) and the Active player cannot do enough damage to knock the defending Pokémon out. When would the active players turn end?

Would this be:
a) after the entire attack of the active player's Pokémon has been completed (i.e. damage has been done and alle effects of the attack have been applied)
or
b) after the entire attack of the active player's Pokémon has been completed ánd all effects lying on both Pokémon (as Special Conditions or perhaps Char counters when playing in an unlimited tournament) have been applied, effectively giving the non-active player the win for this round.


Its a) ie a DRAW


ref 'Your turn is now over' in the rule book. After each players turn is over poison etc are figured.

I'm not aware that this is any different now under Nintendo to what it was with WotC at the helm.

[White Gryphon]

So, in other words, the game ends AFTER the active player's turn ends but BEFORE the between-turn effects happen... which would add yet another time phase to the game, the time between between turns?

[Big Daddy Snorlax]

Here is the answer I posted in the Ask the Master Trainers forum:

The answer to your question can be found in the Sandstorm Rule Book:

What Happens after Each Player’s Turn?

After each player’s turn, if either player’s Active Pokémon is Poisoned, it takes
damage; if it’s Burned, it might take damage; and if it’s Asleep or Paralyzed, it
might recover. Then the next player’s turn begins.

While Floor Rules sometimes change the game procedures slightly, they do not affect the game mechanics. Therefore, since Poison places Damage after the player's turn, it would never happen in your example. Your proposed answer "A" would best describe what would happen.

BDS

Although Jimmer has not "officially" answered this one, in cases where there are official rulings or the rule book covers the answer to a question, we are currently posting those answers, citing the proper reference. This allows Jimmer to spend his limited time on things that have not already been covered. Whenever you want to discuss one of the questions, or one of the rulings, feel free to copy the question and/or answer into this forum as NoPoke did. Community discussion on rulings is a very good thing. Occasionally they do get reversed or modified as a result of these type of discussions. It's not an exact science! ;)

BDS

[PokePop]

I'd actually like to take this one to Jimmer.
While it does happen after the player's turn, it could be seen as part of "finishing" that turn.

[NoPoke]

Well Jimmer is credited with writing the revised rule book. And item 4 on page 12 is very clear...

4 Your turn is OVER now.

this is printed all on its own in the rule book presumably for emphasis.

So as a judge I'd definately rule that it is a draw as things stand. I'd be surprised if it gets changed. But then what would life be without surprises?

[White Gryphon]

I'd actually like to take this one to Jimmer.
While it does happen after the player's turn, it could be seen as part of "finishing" that turn.

Hmm... The way I see it, since there could be a time between turns when no between-turn effects take place, then the game would end without any of them happening anyway. For there to even be a space between turns, there would have to be a turn following.

I admit, it doesn't take much to make my head hurt... but I would like to hear what Jimmer has to say about it. :D

[Big Daddy Snorlax]

Well, I must admit I thought I was pretty safe answering this one. However, since we have some differing opinions, or at lease some people with questions, I will pull my answer from the ATMT forum. The only answers that we should post in there are ones that are crystal clear.

Now, having said that, ARE YOU PEOPLE NUTS??!!!?!!?? :eek: This has been a game mechanic for as long as I can remember. Things that happen between turns do not happen at the end of a game when time is called and someone finishes their turn. Turn over - game over. I will be amazed if Jimmer rules differently.

BDS :lol:

[PokePop]

You know, now that I think about it, you're right.
Still, worth getting the new crew's take on it.

[Sensei]

Well,end of turn means end of turn.It doesn`t mean "Oh wait,lets go to between turns and do stuff now".End of turn is end of turn and the game ends.

That`s my take on it.:)

`Sensei

[Sensei]

Here`s the ruling from the Rules meeting.The players turn ends when that player does everything allowed during his/her turn.Between(After) turn effects are not resolved.

Q. In the new Tournament rules, it is said that when time is called,
the active player is allowed to finish his or her turn. After this, do
players still check for Burn, Poison, and other relevant Special
Conditions, or is the game over before the Special Conditions can take place?
A. When time is called, the end of the game would trigger at the end of
the current player's turn after resolving all of the effects that occur
during that player's turn, but before addressing any actions that
happen between turns such as Special Conditions. (Oct 16, 2003 PUI Rules
Team)

`Sensei

[NoPoke]

Okay...

So time is called, its a single game tournament. The active player succeeds in taking their last prize. Is this a full win or an incomplete win?

[PokePop]

I don't understand. Why would it not be a complete win if they took their last prize? Taking the prize is still part of the turn, per the rule book.

[yoshi1001]

Well, under WotC, as I understood from what I was told, if a player takes their last prize (or knocks out their opponent's last pokemon), they still get a full win.

[SD PokeMom]

Except we're _not talking_ about the game as run under WotC, are we?...:rolleyes:

'mom

[Big Daddy Snorlax]

It doesn't sound like anyone has picked up on the fact that we may not have 2 points awarded for a timed win any longer. I find nothing in the Floor Rules about 2 point wins, and in the Prerelease instructions you get "3 points for each win, 1 point for each draw, and 0 points for a loss." There is no reference about 2 point wins at all. The tournament software does not award 2 points either. In fact, I've seen nothing written anywhere about 2 point wins. Definitly something to check out with Jimmer.

BDS

[Baboon]

Taking a Prize should be part of your turn. I would see no reason to only give an incomplete win, if even a thing should exist.

Even after we get a final answer, the odds are someone at a tournament somewhere will end up arguing it... -_-

[NoPoke]

Sorry but we are completely ignorant of any of the tournament software or pre-release tournament instructions provided by PUI in the USA.

Another thing that I hadn't picked up on would be that Match play (ie best out of three) also no longer exists ???

Breaks out some old chess software for pairings use...

[Big Daddy Snorlax]

Sorry but we are completely ignorant of any of the tournament software or pre-release tournament instructions provided by PUI in the USA.

Another thing that I hadn't picked up on would be that Match play (ie best out of three) also no longer exists ???

I'll e-mail you the Prerelease tournament instructions FYI. As to the match play, it has not been eliminated. Here is the applicable reference from the Floor Rules:

Definition of a Match
Each match consists of one game of Pokémon. A tournament organizer may declare at the beginning of a tournament, that a match consists of more than one game, but must state this before the tournament starts.

BDS

[NoPoke]

I'd hate to be the TO having to run a match play tournament without software that supports a 2-0 win being superior to a 2-1 win.

[edit: who needs computers anyway.. I'll just have to go back to the old pencil and paper method for match-play

Oh and thanks for the paperwork BDS. As players arrive at the event location, when they sign-up, the organizer will fill out pairing slips for the players. maybe the pre-releases will be done the good old fashioned way too ]