POP Floor rules encourage cheating?

[ukpokemonpro]

Michel posted this section of the POP floor rules on the Ask the Masters section of the gym...

3. The player going first checks to see if he or she has a Basic Pokémon card in their hand. If they don’t have any, that player reveals their hand to the opponent and then shuffles their hand back into their deck. That player draws a new opening hand of 7 cards, while their opponent may draw an extra card. This will be repeated until the starting player has at least one Basic Pokémon in their hand.
4. The other player checks to see if his or her hand has at least one Basic Pokémon at this time. If they don’t have any Basic Pokémon, they shuffle their hand back into their deck and draw an equal number of cards. (For example, Jake drew an extra card because Sarah had to re-draw her hand once. If Jake doesn’t have any Basic Pokémon in his hand of 8 cards, he will shuffle his hand back into his deck, and re-draw a hand of 8 cards.) The starting player would be allowed to draw one extra card.

From this passage if I go 2nd I could state I have no basic cards in my hand NOT have to show my hand to my opponent and shuffle the cards back into my deck... and draw another hand of cards equal to the number I shuffled away.

Now this means the POP rules have made the start of the game and who goes second really important since first does not get a card draw and second can mulligan when they like without worrying I cannot see any tourney level player not going second... Oh dear cheatermon has landed maybe?

Or is this mis-print going to be amended to ..

The other player checks to see if his or her hand has at least one Basic Pokémon at this time. If they don’t have any Basic Pokémon, that player reveals their hand to the opponent they then shuffle their hand back into their deck and draw an equal number of cards.

[NoPoke]

OUCH!

Not sure that I'd say 'encourages' cheating but it certainly makes it easy for those so inclined :(

Even without the above cheat I believe that the tactical advantage in EON now lies with the player going second.

[PokePop]

MetaRule of Pokemon: If you draw a limited number of cards trying to get a specific type of card and don't get any, you show those cards to your opponent.

Ref: Rulings on Energy Search and other cards.

Same thing here. The "show" is assumed.

I agree it should be added for clarity, but as a Judge, I'd be enforcing the "show".

[League Leader Terry]

Wait a second? The second player redraws the same number of cards of he or she Mulligans, too? I always thought that if BOTH players Mulligan'ed, they both redraw 7 cards.

[Joe Monkey]

If you have nothing of worth to add to the discussion,especially an off the cuff remark,then don`t say anything.-`Sensei

[ukpokemonpro]

Same thing here. The "show" is assumed.

I agree it should be added for clarity, but as a Judge, I'd be enforcing the "show".

PokePop, we have enough players over here who would at the very least argue that the rules state they do not have to show their hand... assumed only makes an .. and the rest won't work with these filters but you know how it goes .. basically we need to spell it out and make it bullet proof to prevent arguments and yes we would judge it that way too but after it has happended and the floor rules state you don't show then what penalty do you apply?

Re-working needed methinks...

[DARKGeNGaR094]

Wait a second? The second player redraws the same number of cards of he or she Mulligans, too? I always thought that if BOTH players Mulligan'ed, they both redraw 7 cards.

About 1.5/2 years ago it was. They changed that in the 2002/03 floor rules (or sooner)

[Porygon3]

the judge always has final say, if your player or players want it in writing ... tough.

[NoPoke]

Judges don't always get called... Players have been known to browbeat their opponents. Maybe this kind of gamesmanship doesn't occur in the USA?

The floor rules should be crystal clear on the starting procedure. As it stands you DO NOT HAVE to show your hand if you are going second. There is no excuse for such an omission in the floor rules.

Sad to say I know players who I anticipate will attempt to take advantage of the floor rules. Not necessarily cheat, but if it doesn't say show your hand then I doubt that they will wish to give there opponent any clues about what deck they are playing. Can't say I blame them either if they are playing in a sporting manner.

I think the floor rules need a bit of work. Perhaps circulating the drafts to a wider audience would have improved the final rules.

[Big Daddy Snorlax]

Wait a second? The second player redraws the same number of cards of he or she Mulligans, too? I always thought that if BOTH players Mulligan'ed, they both redraw 7 cards.

Actually, while DARKGeNGaR094 is correct about WotC changing the Mulligan rule a couple years ago, for all types of play, in Casual Play PUI has changed it back. From the Sandstorm Rule book:

What Happens if NeitherPlayer Gets a Basic Pokémon Card in His or Her First 7 Cards?
Sometimes neither you nor your opponent get any Basic Pokémon cards in your first hands of 7 cards. If this happens, both players shuffle and draw 7 new cards. In this case, neither player gets to draw an extra card. Repeat this process until at least one of the players has a Basic Pokémon card in his or her hand of 7 cards. If the other player still doesn’t have a Basic Pokémon card in his or her hand, that player can shuffle and draw 7 new cards, but the player who already has a Basic Pokémon card can draw an extra card as usual. Continue this process until each player has a Basic Pokémon card in his or her hand of 7 cards.

This subject came up at a Rules Team meeting a couple weeks ago and Jimmer said that for League and other Casual Play situations the Rule Book should/could be followed. For Tournaments, you would of course follow the Floor Rules, in cases where they are different, like the Mulligan rule. I'm not sure why they chose to make them different, but they are, at least right now.

BDS

[SteveP]

Interesting. I highly doubt this omission will remain in the Floor Rules for long.

There is a VERY EASY solution to this omission. If my opponent claimed he had no basic and refused to show me his hand, I'd call over the judge to look at my opponent's hand. If he did have a basic, my opponent will be caught cheating and be penalized. Now, if my opponent decides to shuffle in his hand very quickly before the judge comes over, what should the judge do? That's a tough one, but if I were judging, I'd certainly give a warning and maybe a prize-swap/game-loss penalty if I suspected cheating.

[Sensei]

PokePop, we have enough players over here who would at the very least argue that the rules state they do not have to show their hand... assumed only makes an .. and the rest won't work with these filters but you know how it goes .. basically we need to spell it out and make it bullet proof to prevent arguments and yes we would judge it that way too but after it has happended and the floor rules state you don't show then what penalty do you apply?

Re-working needed methinks...

Ya know,this is the one thing that really peeves me to no end.People who have run/judged tournaments and/or League Play and come to me saying "I need this clarified,this ruling answered by such and such himself,etc,etc...because the people in my area would argue that it doesn`t say such and such in the Floor Rules,etc".

You gotta be joking.

First of all,people trying to "get around the rules" by not doing something that we all know is the way to play in a certain situation should be warned.This is another form of cheating and should not be tolerated.

Second of all,it`s been the rule that the Head Judge is the final authority when it comes to a ruling.When the HJ issues his ruling,then there is no question, whether any player likes it or not.If someone argues the point,then they get DQ`ed.Any situations that are not clear,as in the one above,should be mentioned before the tournament starts.

If a player has a problem with that,then he needs to be elsewhere.I just don`t understand why some people(players) can`t get this through their heads.

Don`t get me wrong,I`m not yelling at anyone...just giving my opinion on this type of situation that keeps rearing it`s ugly head. ;)

`Sensei

[ukpokemonpro]

Sensei,

Ya know,this is the one thing that really peeves me to no end.People who have run/judged tournaments and/or League Play and come to me saying "I need this clarified,this ruling answered by such and such himself,etc,etc...because the people in my area would argue that it doesn`t say such and such in the Floor Rules,etc".

You gotta be joking.

First of all,people trying to "get around the rules" by not doing something that we all know is the way to play in a certain situation should be warned.This is another form of cheating and should not be tolerated.

Second of all,it`s been the rule that the Head Judge is the final authority when it comes to a ruling.When the HJ issues his ruling,then there is no question, whether any player likes it or not.If someone argues the point,then they get DQ`ed.Any situations that are not clear,as in the one above,should be mentioned before the tournament starts.



Well it doesn't help when those players and parents who display gamesmanship and challenge rulings, then post here where a host of parties jump up and down on the judge telling them what they should have done at the time!

Perhaps we need to reinforce the line that the HEAD JUDGES DECISION IS FINAL. Then when the players whine here we could all just quote that and then take a general discussion on rulings further rather than hammering the judges over specific rulings.

Certainly I do not think that the floor rules can stay as they are and that they need revision and I hope that they will be passed amongst the MPs for comment so that these issues can be raised before it goes live.

As it stands saying that it is a given when the rules don't say that will leave us open to potential problems and it is not hard to revise the rulings .. at least not according to Dave Shwimmer...

[PokePop]

I hope that they will be passed amongst the MPs for comment so that these issues can be raised before it goes live.


One more thing for Tony Blair to get in trouble over.

[ukpokemonpro]

PokePop ... :clap:

Master Professors then so we hit the Judges and TOs :lol:

[Sensei]

Perhaps we need to reinforce the line that the HEAD JUDGES DECISION IS FINAL.

Last time I checked,it`s always been that way.I don`t understand what problem anyone has on this matter.This is a given.

If you have problem people,then you need to take care of them.Period.

`Sensei

[jdb728]

First of all,people trying to "get around the rules" by not doing something that we all know is the way to play in a certain situation should be warned.This is another form of cheating and should not be tolerated.

Second of all,it`s been the rule that the Head Judge is the final authority when it comes to a ruling.When the HJ issues his ruling,then there is no question, whether any player likes it or not.If someone argues the point,then they get DQ`ed.Any situations that are not clear,as in the one above,should be mentioned before the tournament starts., Umm, I have a couple questions about a judge who does this: #1: How long do you think players will want to attend tournaments that you're judging in if you keep penalizing people for doing something that is completely legal(at least according to the rules), and then DQing anyone who points out that a Judge may have made a mistake? #2: How long do you think anyone will allow you to judge a tourney that they're TOing if you keep penalizing people for doing something that is completely legal(at least according to the rules), and then DQing anyone who point's out that a Judge may have made a mistake?

To keep on topic, I think the floor need to be fixed.

[ukpokemonpro]

jdb728,

yep good questions .. as a head judge or TO at the moment it is crucial that we point out the need to show your opponent your hand when you mulligan at the start of the game regardless of who goes first or not.

Even though that is not in the floor rules the TO and HJ can add local rules and this looks like one of them.

As to answering your questions well you would likely lose players and when they came on here all vocal and got support from senior figures here you would likely lose some more.

And yes your TO may well dump you although I think what really happens is that the TO and HJ learn to spell out their interpretation of rulings right at the start...

[SteveP]

I've got to agree with jdb that any HJ who alters a rule because he feels it's wrong (or an omission exists like for this rule), that HJ is tredding in dangerous waters. Sure, the HJ has the final-word, but that final-word had better be consistant with the current rules.

IMO, there is a flaw in the ruling. However, my HJ remedy would be this:

1. Tell the players before the tournament starts about this flaw (maybe not using the word "flaw" though).
2. Tell the players going second that if they don't want to reveal their hands to their opponent before they mulligan, then their opponent has the right to call over a judge to check their hand. If they DID have a basic, they'd be penalized for cheating.
3. Encourage all players to PLEASE not use step 2, but will allow them to use it if they are so compelled (because they don't want to reveal their hand, and possibly reveal their deck strategy).

Listen, until this "flaw" is remedied, we've GOT to abide by it! Players HAVE THE RIGHT to use this "flaw" to their advantage for the time being, so long as they aren't cheating.

[GymLeaderPhil]

What we really need are Penalty Guidelines (AND updated ruilings on cards)... or at least a hierarchy of steps that lead up to Disqualification (Example: Warning, Caution, Prize Penalty, Game Loss, DQ).

We are going to run into a whole bunch of trouble if this "penalize as needed" without examples thing continues. For example, let's say a player goes to one tournament locally and then attend another tournament ten states over. With Penality Guidelines, a player who drew an illegal amount of cards would recieve a prize penalty at one tournament and a warning at another tournament. We've just managed to confuse that player. Just imagine the differences we would have if Worlds was tommorow. Ruiling Disputes would be out the window.

Yes, I do know that the HJ's decision is final, but if we have too many cooks in the kitchen... players will have Soup instead of Steak. Then they end up leaving our resturant.
-Phil

[NoPoke]

psst: don't let on Phil, but we are still using the wotc guidelines over here.

But slightly more seriously the penalty guidelines were just that 'GUIDELINES' so the scenario you describe of a player receiving a different penalty for the same infraction at different tournaments was present even under Wizards.

I do think that example based guidelines are a good idea. We should probably start a thread requesting examples of infraction and suggested penalties. Better yet TC could start a forum dedicated to such examples. that way the guidelines wouldn't get lost amongst all the other stuff in the existing single card forum.

[Sensei]

, Umm, I have a couple questions about a judge who does this: #1: How long do you think players will want to attend tournaments that you're judging in if you keep penalizing people for doing something that is completely legal(at least according to the rules), and then DQing anyone who points out that a Judge may have made a mistake? #2: How long do you think anyone will allow you to judge a tourney that they're TOing if you keep penalizing people for doing something that is completely legal(at least according to the rules), and then DQing anyone who point's out that a Judge may have made a mistake?

To keep on topic, I think the floor need to be fixed.

First of all,if you read my post,I`m talking about suituations as described above where someone finds a "loophole" so to speak where there is the correct way to play a situation but because it`s not printed,they try to get around the rules and argue with a HJ.Trying to do something everyone clearly knows is not the way to play because something was omitted by mistake is simply wrong!Don`t take my words and twist them.

Second of all the HJ is the final authority in any tournament and,if you read my post again,I was aiming at the people being described as arguing all the time and the judges/HJ`s that constantly let people get away with arguing and saying "you have no proof" or "it`s not written",etc.If a player argues the final judgement,and continues to do so after being warned,it falls under bad sportsmanship and should be dealt with.

Oh,and saying something is "legal" just because it`s not written down does not mean you can do it.What the HJ rules is whats legal(keeping common sense here..don`t twist the words and say that a HJ can now make up any rules).Like I said,the HJ is the final authority as we all know and all players should play with sportsmanship and not try to twist things and cheat(as described in this thread).

As for rewriting the Floor Rules a bit,as with all first drafts,you need to find the kinks in them and fix them.Of course they should fix it.I do also agree we need a penalty guideline.The DCI one was a great resource.

`Sensei

[ukpokemonpro]

as with all first drafts,you need to find the kinks in them and fix them.Of course they should fix it

Oh I thought we had already had a draft of these rules circulated to the US TO's who ran prereleases and TC... I thought these were the set in stone ones???

So when's the re-write and who do we send revisions to?

[PokePop]

Oh I thought we had already had a draft of these rules circulated to the US TO's who ran prereleases and TC... I thought these were the set in stone ones???

So when's the re-write and who do we send revisions to?

Again, based on what do we know this?

The only public info I saw was a cryptic post by GLP about "top players" or some such wording. TC has never said that we had an early view of this document and had lots of input into it. The only thing we have publically discussed is the weekly rules meetings we set up with PUI.

Aside from this "Mulligan look", I also agree that PUI should add in the Fossil set up rules. But if they don't, does that mean these things don't exist?

[SteveP]

PokePop, the rules about starting with Fossil trainers are found in the Sandstorm Rulebook. I would assume that's official enough for tournament play. But, I can see it would be nice to also have them in the Floor Rules.

Sensei, so if you were head judge and a player going second refused to reveal his hand to his opponent, what would you rule? If I was that player and you told me to reveal my hand, I'd argue that you made an incorrect ruling.

Here's my point. The Floor Rules supercede the theme deck Rulebook (where applicable) in tournament play. Common sense tells me that there's probably an omission in the Floor Rules, but it's NOT the HJ's job to "legislate" the rules because he feels they're wrong.

[dkates]

I side with SteveP here. Technically, unless the HJ rules otherwise, the show is not necessary as the rules are written. Although it's obvious that this was unintentional, even a rule made unintentionally remains as is until it is officially changed. Take, for example, the infamous Suicune misruling. It was obviously wrong, but it was played that way until the ruling was officially overturned. Now, in the interest of fair play, I would probably not personally exploit this flaw, but neither would I side against a player who did not do so. In fact, if my opponent didn't show me his hand, I wouldn't even call the judge -- technically, my opponent's following the rules.
I agree that this rule is incorrect, and should be changed. BUT, in the meantime, it is technically legal to use this maneuver. If I had reason to suspect that my opponent were lying, and indeed had at least one Basic Pokemon in his hand, I might ask the judge to check his hand. But I would not ask my opponent to show it to me, because technically, according to these rules, he does not have to. If the judge rules that he shows it to me, fine, that's his right. But I wouldn't ask him to say that.

[DaytonGymLeader]

Here's the relevant references IMHO:

From the Sandstorm Rule Book:

What If I Don’t Have a Basic Pokémon Card in My Hand? Then show your hand to your opponent, shuffle it back into your deck, and draw 7 new cards. Your opponent can then choose to draw an extra card. If you still don’t have any Basic Pokémon cards in your new hand, you repeat this process, but your opponent can draw an extra card each time!
From the Floor Rules:

Pre-game set-up
1. Whoever wins the coin toss chooses which player goes first.
2. Both players draw an opening hand of 7 cards.
3. The player going first checks to see if he or she has a Basic Pokémon card in their hand. If they don’t have any, that player reveals their hand to the opponent and then shuffles their hand back into their deck. That player draws a new opening hand of 7 cards, while their opponent may draw an extra card. This will be repeated until the starting player has at least one Basic Pokémon in their hand.
4. The other player checks to see if his or her hand has at least one Basic Pokémon at this time. If they don’t have any Basic Pokémon, they shuffle their hand back into their deck and draw an equal number of cards. (For example, Jake drew an extra card because Sarah had to re-draw her hand once. If Jake doesn’t have any Basic Pokémon in his hand of 8 cards, he will shuffle his hand back into his deck, and re-draw a hand of 8 cards.) The starting player would be allowed to draw one extra card.
5. Each player places a Basic Pokémon face-down as their Active Pokémon, and then each player may start with up to 5 other Basic Pokémon on their Bench, face-down.
6. Both players set aside 6 Prize cards face-down, to the side of the match. In the case of Limited format tournaments, players set aside 4 Prize cards instead.From the Floor Rules:

Cheating

Players found cheating will be removed from the event to preserve the integrity of the tournament. The head judge may decide to reduce the penalty for lesser offenses and is the final arbiter of any penalty assigned during the tournament. Cheating is generally defined as any intentional act to gain advantage during a match through deceit or unfair play.

Examples of cheating:
• Drawing extra cards
• Manipulating any player’s deck; such as viewing cards that a player should not see, or alter the order of cards being drawn • Misrepresenting match or in-game information to any player or tournament staff I draw your attention to the section in bold, italics, and underlined above. Here's why: Player 2 is misrepresenting his hand by saying he/she has a mulligan and not showing his/her hand. This is MISREPRESENTATION.

NOTE: Anyone attending the Dragons Pre-Releases in MI, OH, and Western PA will be held to this standard and appropriate penalties will be assessed including and up to disqualification.

There is no doubt in my mind that this is misrepresentation. Should the verbiage be cleaned up? Probably. As a community, how many poor ways of writing have we had to deal with? TONS. This is just one in a long line. Common sense should rule the day here, not nitpicking and rules lawyering.

The floor rules should work in conjunction with the rulebook, not in contravention or overridding the rulebook. Granted, it is established that the Floor Rules do not apply for League and Casual Play.


Originally Posted by ukpokemonpro
Oh I thought we had already had a draft of these rules circulated to the US TO's who ran prereleases and TC... I thought these were the set in stone ones???

So when's the re-write and who do we send revisions to?
My wife and I have ran 6 Pre-Releases to date under PES. Nobody I know has gotten advance copies of the Floor Rules nor were in the review process for the Floor Rules.

[ukpokemonpro]

My wife and I have ran 6 Pre-Releases to date under PES. Nobody I know has gotten advance copies of the Floor Rules nor were in the review process for the Floor Rules.

Interesting, from what was posted on the gym earlier my understanding was that all the pre-release TOs had access to the floor rules my mistake.

But I have to say if the floor rules contradict the rulebook as they do here is it not the floor rules that take precedent?

[PokePop]

Interesting, from what was posted on the gym earlier my understand was that all the pre-release TO had access to the floor rules my mistake.

Yes, one inappropriate, uncorroborated statement by one individual has led to a lot of bad feelings. I hope we can move past that statement and move forward.

[ukpokemonpro]

Of course we can after all we squabble, moan and fight but we are a family here... passionate at times and defending our corner but still a family united (i hope) by this game we all love..

PS still think the rules need changing ;)

[SteveP]

You are correct ukpokemonpro, the Floor Rules take precedence over the Rulebook for tournament play (if there's a conflict).

DGL, two things:

1. We all agree that it's cheating when you trying to mulligan with a "real" basic in your hand. (PS, under the current rules, you can choose to mulligan or not with only Fossils in your starting hand.) The agrument here is, must the player going second reveal his hand to his opponent when declaring the mulligan? Clearly, the Floor Rules omit that requirement, and who knows, maybe Nintendo intended that omission. So, any attempt by a HJ to alter that omission should be frowned upon.

2. There ARE many cases where the Floor Rules contradict (and supercede) the Rulebook. This is one of those (starting the game). So, yes, if you're playing a tournament game, any consideration of using the Rulebook's Game Start rule would be WRONG.

[GymLeaderPhil]

Yes, one inappropriate, uncorroborated statement by one individual has led to a lot of bad feelings. I hope we can move past that statement and move forward.

Sorry, I guess I'm that aforementioned individual. I was under the assumption that ALL Primere TOs were given some advanced info surrounding some parts of organized play. I have thus been corrected that only a select few have been. If you look back at my statement I never plotted to insult or anger those not involved with the process. It was to prove a point, to stop the whining about knowing the Modified Format in advance.

But now, when I revisit my replies, it was taken a different way. I talked about an inner circle. Allude to the existence of an inner circle, and suddenly everyone wants in. If it makes anyone feel better, I never saw anything in advanced either since late March. Poor me. I'm not one of the elite, just your average middleman. But heck, I don't complain about it. I could care less to burden that task, even if it was good. Concealing something that could hurt the community is never something I would want to hold back.

So uh, yeah I would have to agree with farbsman, second player follows the same rules as the first player casual or sanctioned in ANY event that I'm working with. This is not some new rule, otherwise it would have been highlighted in the section of the rulebook like this link:
http://www.pokemon-tcg.com/p_strategy/rules_expert.jsp#1
-Phil

[NoPoke]

Well in my role as HJ you take the floor rules as a whole. Either you accept the validity of the document as a whole or you reject that validity. You don't get to pick and choose.

If the floor rules have a section that says that this is how you start the game then that is how you start the game. Floor rules should not be subjective or open to interpretation. I have faith that this will be fixed before it becomes an issue. Klicks red shoes together and repeats three times........

[DaytonGymLeader]

Then I guess I'm going to be wrong for applying common sense.

[NoPoke]

The problem with common sense is that it it is not so common!

I will not penalise any player for abiding by the tournament floor rules. I may not be happy with that but it is not my decision to make. Surely we are all agreed that the floor rules need a fix?

[Sensei]

Sensei, so if you were head judge and a player going second refused to reveal his hand to his opponent, what would you rule? If I was that player and you told me to reveal my hand, I'd argue that you made an incorrect ruling.

Here's my point. The Floor Rules supercede the theme deck Rulebook (where applicable) in tournament play. Common sense tells me that there's probably an omission in the Floor Rules, but it's NOT the HJ's job to "legislate" the rules because he feels they're wrong.

First of all,I`m out of state and alot has been said since I was on when I left that has been answered by `Pop and DaytonGL.Props to them especially Steve(DGL) as he is 100% correct.

If I was the HJ,and it had been announced before the tourney that the player going second must show their hands to their opponents if they mulligan,and they refused the judges ruling,and then after the appeal to the HJ and refused after I as the HJ ruled that he must show it,then I`d DQ him as the Head Judge is the final arbitor.Stating your opinion is ok,but don`t fall into bad sportsmanship and argue with the HJ.You will lose every time.

What I don`t understand is where you think that just because that this specific part of the pre game was omitted,you think that a HJ is making up rules.Wrong.I could understand if a HJ made up some weird rule or something,but this specific example where any player has always shown their hand to their opponent when mulliganing since the conception of the game is a clear cut,common sense rule of thumb.

Another point I`d like to make is that the Floor Rules are Guidelines.How many times have you "warned" a player when committing something when really the appropriate rule was to give a penalty?I`ve seen quite a few people on here do such,not to mention the MT`s, and I have also said that I like to be lenient as well in tournaments if the situation permits.We have always been told that in the tournaments that they were REL 1(DCI) and the main goal was to have fun.There are times when the HJ will make some exception to a certain rule.After all,he is the final arbitor.Of course,I must state again even though it will be ignored again,this doesn`t mean the HJ can make up new rules,etc.

I agree that they need to revise the floor rules,but if we find an omission like this,then the HJ,using common sense, has the right to abide by the intent of the floor rules and also invoke the Rulebook if necessary and applicable.Since when did the rulebook all of a sudden become "not applicable"?Just to fit this occasion so someone can cheat?C`mon guys.You are leaders in your appropriate areas.Use common sense and make the correct ruling.Don`t let people who like to twist things get away with it. :nonono:

`Sensei

[Jeremy Badeaux]

If I was the HJ,and it had been announced before the tourney that the player going second must show their hands to their opponents if they mulligan,and they refused the judges ruling,and then after the appeal to the HJ and refused after I as the HJ ruled that he must show it,then I`d DQ him as the Head Judge is the final arbitor.Stating your opinion is ok,but don`t fall into bad sportsmanship and argue with the HJ.You will lose every time.

What I don`t understand is where you think that just because that this specific part of the pre game was omitted,you think that a HJ is making up rules.Wrong.I could understand if a HJ made up some weird rule or something,but this specific example where any player has always shown their hand to their opponent when mulliganing since the conception of the game is a clear cut,common sense rule of thumb.

And before the new rulings:
you could always retreat as often as you liked.
you could always play as many stadiums as you wanted during your turn.
Going back a little further:
Pokemon Powers could never be shut off by anything other than sleep, confusion, and paralysis.
Magby's "Sputter" always lasted until the end of your next turn.

Just because something new and different occurs, does NOT mean that it's a mistake.

I agree that they need to revise the floor rules,but if we find an omission like this,then the HJ,using common sense, has the right to abide by the intent of the floor rules and also invoke the Rulebook if necessary and applicable.Since when did the rulebook all of a sudden become "not applicable"?Just to fit this occasion so someone can cheat?C`mon guys.You are leaders in your appropriate areas.Use common sense and make the correct ruling.Don`t let people who like to twist things get away with it. :nonono:

`Sensei

I agree with you on the premise of stating before hand about the ruling, and then proceeding to penalize as nessecary, by that ruling.

On the other side of that, if a HJ is running a Sanctioned tourny and doesn't follow the "handbook", they end up DQ'ing somebody that says the ruling you made was wrong, would you be willing to take the blame if they got reported to POP(regardless wether the decision is the "true" intention of the rules or not, they still went against what the "book" said was the proper procedure)?

I agree that something needs to be done about this(and how long would it take TC to check if it was a mistake :rolleyes: ), but if this was an accident or done on purpose, it's not the right of any one Head Judge to say what the intention of the rule was(without even having any official word on the subject).


BTW, don't even try to say that the earlier examples I used were all anounced changes(while this one is obviously not), there hasn't exactly been a ton of communication with PUSA(in fact, not much more than minimal communication).

The post you just read was NOT intended to offend anyone, and I DO realize that PUSA has been doing a great job(and the current situation probably doesn't allow for more communication than there currently is).

[SteveP]

You know Sensei, I'm not agruing with the authority that a Head Judge possesses and the respect he/she demands. Anyway, an up-front announcement by the HJ to enforce hand-revealing (regardless of the omission) would probably not result in a player revolt.

Hey, I expect this issue to be resolved soon, so we're probably wasting our time arguing about this particular rule omission. Nevertheless, the broader issue about a HJ's authority to interpret the intent of the rules can sometimes be taken to the extreme and sometimes be abused. When a judge deviates from the written law, even slightly, those deviations can appear biased or wrong, thereby reducing a judge's credability.

[jdb728]

First of all,if you read my post,I`m talking about suituations as described above where someone finds a "loophole" so to speak where there is the correct way to play a situation but because it`s not printed,they try to get around the rules and argue with a HJ.Trying to do something everyone clearly knows is not the way to play because something was omitted by mistake is simply wrong!Don`t take my words and twist them.

This "loophole" that "everyone clearly knows is not the way to play" is the official ruling that PUSA has setup for HJ's to follow, not just for the HJ's to decide to use it based on whether they like it or not.

Second of all the HJ is the final authority in any tournament and,if you read my post again,I was aiming at the people being described as arguing all the time and the judges/HJ`s that constantly let people get away with arguing and saying "you have no proof" or "it`s not written",etc.If a player argues the final judgement,and continues to do so after being warned,it falls under bad sportsmanship and should be dealt with.

"I was aiming at the people being described as arguing all the time and the judges/HJ's that constantly let people get away with arguing and saying "you have no proof" or "it`s not written",etc.", of course, in this particular instance, the player would be right, if there's no proof, and it's not written, then any good Judge(IMHO) would not DQ the player for saying the Judge is wrong, or even penalize the player in the first place for doing something that is not illegal(at least according to the Floor Rules made by PUSA)

Oh,and saying something is "legal" just because it`s not written down does not mean you can do it.What the HJ rules is whats legal(keeping common sense here..don`t twist the words and say that a HJ can now make up any rules).Like I said,the HJ is the final authority as we all know and all players should play with sportsmanship and not try to twist things and cheat(as described in this thread).

Please enlighten us all on how doing something that is not illegal in the Floor Rules(that ALL JUDGES are suppossed to make rulings by) is trying to "twist things and cheat".

As for rewriting the Floor Rules a bit,as with all first drafts,you need to find the kinks in them and fix them.Of course they should fix it.I do also agree we need a penalty guideline.The DCI one was a great resource.

`Sensei

I accually agree with you on this, the Floor Rules do need to be fixed IMO.

I must say that I agree with Jeremy Badeaux(for once), a Judge isn't suppossed to change any rules just because he dosen't agree with them, or just thinks it was a mistake, considering the fact of what's gonna happen when the HJ penalized players for doing something that turns out(even though a judges ignorance, or just a desire to show that they're above the rules causes them to think that it was a mistake in the rules) not to be a mistake? Would the HJ then take responsibility for his "common sense"?

With some of the people that have posted, I think not(NOTE: This does not go for all Judges who have posted on here).

[GymLeaderPhil]

On the other side of that, if a HJ is running a Sanctioned tourny and doesn't follow the "handbook", they end up DQ'ing somebody that says the ruling you made was wrong, would you be willing to take the blame if they got reported to POP(regardless wether the decision is the "true" intention of the rules or not, they still went against what the "book" said was the proper procedure)?


Whatever the Head Judge says is final. This has ALWAYS been the direction taken with Organized Play. As a player, one must respect the ruiling even if the Head Judge does not agree with your opinion on the matter. If a Head Judge is forcing players to do something way out of line on a continuous basis, even after given official rule documents that differ from his ruilings, that HJ should be reported to Pokemon Organized Play. This mulligan thing is anybody's guess at this point. There is no clear official answer.

The key thing is, nobody will be DQing anyone if they dispute a ruiling from a Head Judge saying that the second player MUST show their hand in a mulligan situation. DQs result when players have been warned and recieved at least one game loss OR when that player commits a serious disruptive action. From my judging experience, we have seldom had to consider disqualifying anyone.

If I personally know a player and have had to assign penalties to that person at previous events, I will escalate my penalties DESPITE what some book says. The floor rules do not answer every single situation! Does it say anything about DQing a player if he or she removes his clothes? No. Do the Floor Rules offer suggestions on how to assist players with a language or speech/hearing problem? No. If you lived by the Floor Rules, you'd be looking up answers to players questions and extending their matches due to the time taken. The Floor Rules are not in the exact situation that you, as a head judge, are in at all times.

While Head Judges are meant to keep the spirit of the rules, it is at their own disgression to bend the rules depending on the situation. The rule that stated that players had thirty minutes to construct decks at the last two Primere Events in Florida were extended nearly a hour for the older age groups. We even had to assist the 10 and Under Age Group because the deck sheets were so confusing. I personally had to explain how to mark the sheet correctly three times to a 11-14 player who was at our first Primere Event and had a similar sheet. If we didnt bend the rules, we would have disqualified the majority of players.


If the situation occured in a game (after it was announced that both players must show their hands) I would caution the player at fault and warn him not to do it again. If the same player did the same thing in his next game I would assign him a game loss because what he has done cannot be fixed (I cannot retreve his hand). If the same player did it the third time, disqualification. Players need to listen to the head judge. Nine times out of ten a head judge rather be playing. I know I would. Why give some person a hard time that you depend on? Why would I not assign a penality to a player if I made it clear to them that what they are doing is NOT allowed at this event?

Do you know what's going to happen at tournaments that allow this misinterpreted ruiling? We'll have players who know about the loophole and those that do not. Guess what the player who knows the rule will try to do? Allow the other player to go first. Have fun trying to deal with that situation judges.
-Phil

[Sensei]

True Steve,this will probably be amended soon enough.I also want to bring to mind again to everyone,that my posts have been mainly geared to the situation stated above(as I have said before).Definately not for any HJ to go off on a tangent and start making up wild of the wall rulings.

Phil pretty much hit the nail on the head for the most part.The HJ is the final arbiter and can "bend" a rule as he sees fit if the situation permits it.I hinted at this as well in my last post.These rules are guidelines and if you need to "bend" them a little and lessen a penalty(and the reverse is true as well) so as to keep the fun in the game for everyone,then by all means do it.As I have stated,and the MT`s in the past as well,that the game is meant to be enjoyed first and foremost.Also,like Phil says,the Floor rules won`t answer every question you come across.

Sorry JDB,but you are wrong.You say because something is not written in the floor rules,it is "legal"?We could go into a whole "list" of things it doesn`t say as well that we would be here for weeks just arguing about that alone.And with that said,it still does not get around that the HJ is the final arbiter on a ruling whether you like it or not.If you feel a HJ ever ruled wrong on something,you can always contact PUI and give your opinion.As for your "enlightenment want",I clearly stated that I was talking about this specific situation and anyone who goes second and tries to not show their opponent their hand in the case of them mulliganing,is clearly trying to twist the rules because we all know that you always show your hand to your opponent before they shuffle it back into their deck no matter which player you are.

`Sensei

[jdb728]

You say because something is not written in the floor rules,it is "legal"? I may be wrong about this, but don't the Floor Rules regarding the Start of Game Setup cover EVERY STEP of the Start of Game Setup?

Definately not for any HJ to go off on a tangent and start making up wild of the wall rulings. Weren't you the one who was talking about how the HJ "is the final arbator", and saying that players shouldn't say the HJ is wrong because the HJ has the final authority?

The HJ is the final arbiter and can "bend" a rule as he sees fit if the situation permits it. The only problem is, who decides whether or not "the situation permits it", the HJ?

These rules are guidelines and if you need to "bend" them a little and lessen a penalty(and the reverse is true as well) so as to keep the fun in the game for everyone,then by all means do it. How much fun do you think it is for a player to get penalized(or get even a warning) for doing somthing completely legal?

Also,like Phil says,the Floor rules won`t answer every question you come across. I know that, but this is one of the questions that the Floor Rules do answer.

As for your "enlightenment want",I clearly stated that I was talking about this specific situation and anyone who goes second and tries to not show their opponent their hand in the case of them mulliganing,is clearly trying to twist the rules because we all know that you always show your hand to your opponent before they shuffle it back into their deck no matter which player you are. If I'm correct in assumming that the Floor Rules cover all of the Start of game setup steps, then they may be abusing the Rules, but if it's legal, it's legal, whether players abuse it or not. A player can just retreat their active and use a switch to put the same Pokemon active to get rid of an effect such as Smokescreen(because it left the active spot), now this is abusing the rule that some would consider a "loophole", so does that mean that a Judge can penalize the player for abusing this rule?

"we all know that you always show your hand to your opponent before they shuffle it back into their deck no matter which player you are.", of course we all knew that you always had to flip a coin(or use any other type of randomizer) to see if you could retreat while your active Pokemon is confused, does it mean the HJ should be able to disregard PUSA's new rule about being able to retreat your active without a flip when it's confused?

Posted by GymLeaderPhil: This mulligan thing is anybody's guess at this point. There is no clear official answer. I agree. This is exactly the reason HJ's should NOT jump the gun, and say that this was a mistake, and proceed to penalize people for not showing their hands, at least not until we know whether or not PUSA did this on purpose.

Do you know what's going to happen at tournaments that allow this misinterpreted ruiling? The problem is that we don't even know if it was a mistake, for all we know, this may very well be the way PUSA wanted it to be. I don't know for a fact one way or another if this was intentional or not, so I'm not gonna start saying that "It's a mistake" without some proof first(maybe hearing it from PUSA would be nice), instead of just guesses from certain people who say they know for a fact that it was a mistake.


This post is IMO of course.

[NoPoke]

LOL

Under Wotc we had

1)Floor Rules split into two documents: game specific floor rules and Universal Floor rules.

2)Penalty Guidelines

Now one of these is obviously 'guidelines' and the other is what?.

I find it surprising that some HJs have apparently been treating RULES as guidelines. However that does explain some of the arguments put forward that a player is cheating when they don't show their hand.

Rules is Rules people. If they were Guidelines then they would say so!

[irwinmalek]

I would have said that if your opponent says he is mulliganing, he shouldn't (as it stands at the moment) have to show his hand to his opponent. If, however, his opponent believes that that player may have a basic Pokémon in his hand, he should call a judge, who can check his opponent's hand without showing you your opponent's hand.

It's not perfect, obviously, but IMO it's the best way to follow the floor rules until they are edited, and keep good sportsmanship intact.

[DaytonGymLeader]

I may be wrong about this, but don't the Floor Rules regarding the Start of Game Setup cover EVERY STEP of the Start of Game Setup?Let's start to take this apart again. There was a provision in the UTR under WotC for Pre-Game that I've seen almost nobody follow. You're supposed to have 3 minutes for Pre-Game, but there have been a few tournaments that I've attended as a player (wow, I actually used to play this game :lol: ) that did not allow this. Did I point this out? Yes. Did I vehemently argue this point with the HJ? No, it's the Head Judge's show.

The only problem is, who decides whether or not "the situation permits it", the HJ?Any person associated with the tournament who can make a valid argument. However, you must ACCEPT the fact that the Head Judge's Final Ruling is law for all practical purposes. It was that way under WotC and there was no argument as to that fact. Why should there be argument now over the Head Judge's role as the final say in a situation? Granted you can appeal, but do you remember the track record of successful appeals to the DCI after a Head Judge has ruled? I can pretty much tell you it was close to 0% successful unless the Head Judge REALLY stepped on it. We're there to ensure FAIRNESS. Now how fair is it that player 2 gets to MISREPRESENT (which is Cheating IMO per the Floor Rules) his/her hand in saying they have a mulligan because they don't like the starting Pokemon that they have?

If I'm correct in assumming that the Floor Rules cover all of the Start of game setup steps, then they may be abusing the Rules, but if it's legal, it's legal, whether players abuse it or not. A player can just retreat their active and use a switch to put the same Pokemon active to get rid of an effect such as Smokescreen(because it left the active spot), now this is abusing the rule that some would consider a "loophole", so does that mean that a Judge can penalize the player for abusing this rule?

"we all know that you always show your hand to your opponent before they shuffle it back into their deck no matter which player you are.", of course we all knew that you always had to flip a coin(or use any other type of randomizer) to see if you could retreat while your active Pokemon is confused, does it mean the HJ should be able to disregard PUSA's new rule about being able to retreat your active without a flip when it's confused?That's in the rulebook and also an ESTABLISHED game mechanic. It's not a loophole.

Posted by GymLeaderPhil: I agree. This is exactly the reason HJ's should NOT jump the gun, and say that this was a mistake, and proceed to penalize people for not showing their hands, at least not until we know whether or not PUSA did this on purpose.

The problem is that we don't even know if it was a mistake, for all we know, this may very well be the way PUSA wanted it to be. I don't know for a fact one way or another if this was intentional or not, so I'm not gonna start saying that "It's a mistake" without some proof first(maybe hearing it from PUSA would be nice), instead of just guesses from certain people who say they know for a fact that it was a mistake.

This post is IMO of course.So, I'll go back to my original point - APPLY COMMON SENSE.


The problem with common sense is that it it is not so common!

[Sensei]

Once again,Steve did a great job of replying while I was away.Again,he is 100% correct.Due to that,and that your statements, JDB, are the exact same thing you`ve argued over and over and still is not correct,I won`t pick your post apart as you have tried mine.As the saying goes "Ain`t no sense in talking when no one is listening".

One other thing I`d like to say is that you have had several people with years of a proven track record in running a tourney as judge,HJ,and TO that are trying to point out some points to everyone which is just being ignored by a few.By no means does this make everyone of us a "know it all"...au contrair,we all make mistakes.But it would be a good bet that we are correct and know what we are talking about.

`Sensei

[ukpokemonpro]

One other thing I`d like to say is that you have had several people with years of a proven track record in running a tourney as judge,HJ,and TO that are trying to point out some points to everyone which is just being ignored by a few.By no means does this make everyone of us a "know it all"...au contrair,we all make mistakes.But it would be a good bet that we are correct and know what we are talking about.

Let's see Head Judge at European Gencon says it's needs changing..

Head Judge and TO at UK Gym Challenges says it needs changing

TO at numerous UK tourneys and Head Judge from Se Challenges Series say they need changing and you ignore them.. honest Sensei can you not see when you yourself contradict all you are posting?

PS a little bird tells me you are not adverse to arguing rulings at major tourneys with the judges yourself ;)

Perhaps the judge protests too much methinks...

[DaytonGymLeader]

Let's see Head Judge at European Gencon says it's needs changing..

Head Judge and TO at UK Gym Challenges says it needs changing

TO at numerous UK tourneys and Head Judge from Se Challenges Series say they need changing and you ignore them.. honest Sensei can you not see when you yourself contradict all you are posting?

PS a little bird tells me you are not adverse to arguing rulings at major tourneys with the judges yourself ;)

Perhaps the judge protests too much methinks...
It's not just the UK or Europe saying that the Floor Rules should be clarified. We're not disagreeing with each other on the fact that the Floor Rules should be clarified. The issue we're disagreeing on is the issue of whether or not Player 2 MUST show their hand if they are declaring a mulligan. I think that there's been enough evidence presented that Player 2 must. It can be simplified to a Letter Of The Law interpretation versus a Spirit Of The Law interpretation. The Letter, IMO, isn't complete. Apply common sense and adhere to the Spirit, which, IMO, is to have Player 2 show their hand when declaring a mulligan.

There's lots of rulings that we as a community don't agree with, however, in the absence of guidance, we have applied past precedent with common sense to work through the issue. To this day I still disagree with the way that Murkrow's Feint works in Team Play beacuse of the way the card is worded, but that's just an example. We're not working thru this productively. Don't take that as debate isn't good or useful in working these issues out, but both sides are deeply entrenched and neither is appearing to budge (myself included). If it's in doubt, let's raise the issue in the Ask The MTs Forum and/or have TC bring the issue up during the next weekly rules meeting. Untul that happens, I'm going with having Player 2 show. If the MTs come back and say that I'm wrong, I'll be the first in line to offer my appologies.

[NoPoke]

My position is that the floor rules need to be changed to reflect these ommisions.

However if we fall back on common practice and go with what the head judge says. Then do the floor rules need to be changed at all? After all common sense will fill any errors or omissions?

Anyone who is argueing that the floor rules need to be changed is also accepting that as they stand 'common sense' and 'dont argue with the HJ' just aren't sufficient or satisfactory in a tournament environment.

I feel 100% certain that the you should show your hand when you muligan. Just as I'm 100% certain that you can start with a fossil. Its a pity that the floor rules are silent on the latter and make no mention of the former.

Surely the only common sense thing to do is to change the floor rules. Until then we should stick by them in sanctioned play, once you open the flood gates of interpretation there is no going back.

I remember the Suicune rullings: for a couple of weeks we played with a very unusual rulling on Suicune even though many of us thought it wrong. But for those two weeks the strange rulling WAS EXACTLY how we played. Or am I wrong an a few enlightened souls decided that they knew more that the rulings and played it different?

[jdb728]

Now how fair is it that player 2 gets to MISREPRESENT (which is Cheating IMO per the Floor Rules) his/her hand in saying they have a mulligan because they don't like the starting Pokemon that they have? I said nothing about player2 should be able to "misrepresent their hand", in fact, I think it would be a good idea for player to request the judge looks at the opponents hand(to make sure whether or not a basic is there), but I just don't think the player should have to show their hand to their opponent :p .

But it would be a good bet that we are correct and know what we are talking about. I agree, I think it was just a simple mistake, all I'm sayin', is that is still just a guess :thumb: .

[Sensei]

Let's see Head Judge at European Gencon says it's needs changing..

Head Judge and TO at UK Gym Challenges says it needs changing

`Pro,if you read my posts again,I clearly stated that I agreed that it needs clarification.As Steve just pointed out,we were disagreeing on the issue of the second player having to show their hand in the case of a mulligan...

This is how misunderstandings start...

`Sensei

[SteveP]

WOW, so GLPhil and Sensei think a HJ can "bend" the rules? So, players CAN'T "bend" the rules, but a head judge CAN "bend" the rules. Doesn't seem fair to me.

Listen, let's not deify the HJ position. If we give HJs the power to "bend" the rules, then the rules would mean NOTHING. And, chaos takes over.

Nintendo MTs, please fix this rule, or explain the omission.

PS. Did anyone see "The Practice" tonight? (Oh no, here comes a bad example by SteveP from the liberal media :) ) The lawyer played by Slater revealed privileged information to the DA. In his defense before the Bar Commission, a rule in the lawyer's Code of Conduct was pointed out to the commissioners that allowed Slater's character to reveal the privileged info the way that he did. During their ruling, the commissioners stated the this rule had "saved" the lawyer from being disbarred; however, the "loophole" in the Code of Conduct would certainly be corrected.

So, here's my point. No one is above the rules, not even the HJ. Now I ask, does a HJ have the authority rule that something in the Rulings doesn't make sense, is not right, or defies common sense? Therefore, he/she can "bend" the rules so that it's right or makes sense? Possibly, so long as lots of other people feel the same way. However, IMO, this particular rule we're chatting about here, doesn't fall into that "doesn't make sense" category.

[NoPoke]

As SteveP, myself and others keep pointing out. The floor rules are uncomfortably clear at the moment.. They don't need clarification they need a small change.

[Sensei]

As Steve G,myself, and others keep pointing out.The floor rules are clear for the most part but omitted a vitally important part of pre-game.They need clarification by putting in the omitted part.

So NoPoke,you are saying that you will allow the player going second to not show his hand to his opponent in a mulligan until Jimmer or whomever takes you by the hand and says "Lookee,we put in this clarification just for you"?No wonder this game suffers the way it does.

Steve,don`t take my words and twist the intent of them.You know damn well I`m talking about "specific" situations(and I clearly stated in past posts this did not mean a HJ can make up any rules).You telling me that you never gave a "verbal warning" instead of issuing the "harsher" penalty?I know plenty of HJ`s who have including the MT`s at the STS`.Well,they did, so go yell at them that they can`t "bend" the rules too...

`Sensei

[NoPoke]

I have already said as such earlier. I expect the players to follow the rules and show respect. I believe that they expect me to follow the rules too. Anything else might look like favouritism.

What I don't understand is since we agree that the floor rules need changing why is it so bad for me to follow them until they are changed. It is my firm belief that I am equally subject to the vagaries of the floor rules as the players. Untill someone tells me that it is official policy I will not elevate my status above that of the floor rules.

Why do you keep on bringing up the issue of the penalty guidelines? there is no problem whatsoever with the HJ varying penalties..I asked MTM just how much flexibility a HJ had with the Penalty Guidelines and was told that it was total. However the HJ had no such discression where the floor rules were concerned. The Judges are there to enforce the floor rules fairly and without bias.

[Sensei]

Agreed,we do need it to be changed/clarified.And to be "above" the floor rules,is not the intent of what we have mentioned.What we did intend,was that if there was a serious omission as in this case,then the HJ could announce this in the beginning of a tourneyand state how the situation was to be ruled through the tourney.By doing this,it by no means makes a HJ some all of the sudden god person creator of any rulings he wants.It just means that we recognized a potential problem and are making adjustments until it gets corrected.

Anyways,we`ll ask about this Thursday if there is a rules meeting and if so,one of us will let everyone know what was said.Until then,since we have mostly gone beyond arguing and looks like it could continue,I`m going to lock this.

`Sensei

[Sensei]

OK,here is the ruling straight from the PUI Rules Team Meeting.The rest of the rulings will be put together tomorrow and be posted.


Q. In a sanctioned Tournament, does the player going second have to show his hand in the event they have no Basics at the start of the
game? The Floor Rules don't explicitly say that they have to.
A. Yes, you still reveal your hand before you shuffle it
back into your deck. The rules from the rulebook still apply unless
specifically stated otherwise. (Oct 16, 2003 PUI Rules Team)