Proposing a possible first: Ban from Unlimited?

[dkates]

Although I have more or less shifted to Modified, I still like to play Unlimited every once in a while. But one card, more powerfully than any other, keeps popping up again and again to ruin many decks that would otherwise be viable. That card is Genesis Slowking, known by most simply as Slowking. Because of a change in translation, a card that would have probably ended up being barely noticeable became the most broken form of Trainer denial this game has ever seen. Sneasel, even, is not so bad. At least Sneasel is not too hard to counter, and has an element of luck. With Slowking, despite the flips, there is practically no luck involved, nor skill, nor even much strategy. It has, in my opinion, ruined Unlimited.
So, what am I proposing? Obviously, it is far too late to errata the card. Leaving things as they are clearly won't improve anything. So, I propose that Slowking be the first card ever to be banned from Unlimited. You heard me, banned.
Some will say, "Two other cards are banned from Unlimited." Point taken, but there is a big difference. Ancient Mew is unplayable because it has never been printed in English. Its ban is no different from the fact that Unlimited (outside of Japan) does not allow cards that were only printed in Japan. "Birthday" Pikachu was supposedly banned for being overpowered. Yes, it's overpowered -- in one situation. It's what the situation is that resulted in this card being banned -- you can't feasibly prove whether it's your birthday or not.
Slowking, on the other hand, would truly be the first ban of its kind. I am proposing it be banned from Unlimited not because it has a characteristic that renders it impossible to play, which is not the case, but because of overpowering. That got it banned from Modified, but it was left to ruin Unlimited, and, in my opinion, it did.
I realize that this is a very radical proposal, but it's one that I feel would have a positive effect on the game. For now, I propose that only Slowking should be affected by this. There are other cards that many Unlimited players, including myself, feel are overpowered and are showing up in too many decks, but they are much easier to counter than Slowking is. Therefore, as I stated before, I believe that only Slowking should be placed under this ban.

[NoPoke]

Nah just wait for the high level tournaments involving many players where you switch to Japanese rulings and card interpretation. That'll fix Slowking!

[dkates]

If you're right, and Slowking does change to the original Japanese version, then my proposal does become unnecessary. However, as I don't keep tabs on tournaments, I have no way of knowing when or if this will happen. If it doesn't, I stand by my proposal to kick it out of the format.

[PokePop]

One solution would be for PUSA to reprint the card with the corrected text. That would eliminate the need to ban it and bring the world-play of it into line with Japan.

[dkates]

Now there's another good idea. Much less radical, and easily implemented. Of course, doing so would also, by definition, bring this corrected Slowking back into Modified, but a little Trainer denial is not such a bad thing, as long as it's not overdone. After all, Slowking as is may be the most powerful Trainer denial ever printed, but it's not the only Trainer denial ever printed -- far from it, in fact.

[)v(ajin_ipg21]

Do you know what the JAPANESE SLowking does?
IT IS so less powerful and it's attack is Average *if that*

IT is NOT cumulative and only works while in the active position.

*Would shed a tear, I would not miss sneasal but would miss Slowking*

[dkates]

I was aware of that, actually, which is why I am willing to drop this proposal if Slowking is edited to that version.
The fact that Slowking's Power is cumulative is the only reason it is broken. The fact that it can prevent Trainers from being played? Not the first time that's happened, and decks were always adjusted accordingly -- we figured it out, countered it, and moved on.
But when it takes almost no effort to reduce your opponent's chances of playing Trainers to 1/8 or 1/16, we have a problem. When this can be done with little risk on the part of the player who is restricting his opponent in such a way, the card is unreasonably overpowered, far past the point of being broken.
That Slowking's Power is active only when it is was obviously meant to balance the card. I would even be satisfied even if it were still allowed to work from the bench without being cumulative, but using the Japanese version is the easiest way to edit the card, since that wording already exists.
Slowking, more than Cleffa, Tyrogue, or Sneasel, or any other card, has ruined the Unlimited experience for me. I can counter Cleffa easily. I can counter Tyrogue with only marginally more effort. I can counter Sneasel, perhaps not so easily, but without too much difficulty. But Slowking is all but impossible to counter. Not only that, but every counter to Slowking is itself easily countered. More than that, a win using a Slowking deck is obviously not very satisfying to the player with the Slowking deck -- where's the pleasure in winning when your chances of losing are all but non-existant?
Some people would say, "So don't play Unlimited." However, that means that far more than half of my collection is made up of cards I will never play again. I do not want to make that sacrifice, and I am sure that I am not the only one. I have had many interesting matches in Unlimited, but I have never enjoyed a game played against a Slowking deck, even if I won.
The game of Pokemon was meant to be a game of skill. When a single card can suck every bit of skill out of the game, action must be taken. My only regret is that action was not taken sooner. I'm sorry to see that you would miss Slowking, but I would wager that you are in the minority. I, for one, say that Slowking must be dethroned.

[yoshi1001]

But then there's 2-on-2 unlimited. ;)

Seriously, I think this is a case of "It's so broke why bother fixing it?" Unlimited, is in my view a wasteland beyond repair. I haven't changed my unlimited deck in two years and it still works just fine.

Besides, unlimited is supposed to be a haven for all cards, except for those that just don't work. Unlimited is there to remind us why we have modified.

[SteveP]

Nope, I say leave Slowking as is in Unlimited. Too much trainermon in unlimited. Anyway, I anticipate that all major tournaments will be Modified/Limited, so those who play only Unlimited will be left behind.

Also, I'm guilty of using a mistranslated card. My favorite Unlimited deck is Blaine's Charizard.

[dkates]

Nicely stated, yoshi, but I disagree. Unlimited is supposed to be a format where your deckbuilding has a minimal number of restrictions. But Slowking, while it doesn't change the rules of the game, destroys the viability of many decks. That, to me, is the worst sort of limitation -- "Yes, you can do this, but because of this one card, you'll almost certainly lose." IMO, Unlimited is not as bad as you say it is. It's not as good as it should be, but when Slowking isn't there, it's actually a very fun format. I would prefer that Slowking be edited into a form that is not broken. I would note here, however, that it is IMPERATIVE that it be CRYSTAL CLEAR that the edited version overrides the old one. And if this cannot happen, or until it does, Slowking cannot be allowed to continue its reign of terror. Why should a card that can single-handedly suck the strategy and the fun out of the game be allowed to do so? Why should the only escape from this card require that the player use only the newest cards? If my adamance on this issue is not yet clear, this should make it clear:
SLOWKING HAS RUINED THE GAME!!!! SOMETHING MUST BE DONE!!!!
And I almost never raise my voice, online or in real life.

In response to SteveP's comment about Trainermon, allow me to quote a line that was in my signature as of a few weeks ago: "There is NOTHING WRONG with Trainermon." Of course, this is opinion, but I also feel that Slowking does not solve the problem, even if there is a problem to solve. The deck with the Slowking can have as many Trainers as the deckbuilder cares to put in. That is the other part of why Slowking is so broken -- it's one-sided. If the flip were obligatory for both sides, Slowking would have the risk necessary to balance its strength out.

I do not want to sound like I am closed-minded, but I feel it to be essential that something be done about this. As to how, I am open to any solution that works, be it the ban I proposed, an errata to power it down (with or without reprint), whatever. But I am not willing to stand by while this card's negative effect on the game is ignored.

[BJJ763]

First ban Slowking.

Then ban Professor Oak.

Then Base Blastoise.

Then Super Energy Removal.

Then Chaos Gym (sorry IP!)

Keep going down the list until Dunsparse and Basic Energy is left.

[SteveP]

Personally, I don't like Slowking. After seeing Slowking/something dominate the Worlds in Seattle, I pushed to have it's mistranslation corrected. Instead, it was banned from Modified a few months later.

dkates, there are plenty of anti-Slowking tactics out there for unlimited players. I always found it fun to play Dark Vileplume against Slowking players and give them a more bitter taste of their own medicine.

Sorry, I think excessive use of the Unlimited format for tournaments is what truly ruins this game, not any single card. Get your TO to run Modified if you don't like Slowking. JMO.

[dkates]

SteveP -- Actually, I've been off the tournament scene for the last few months. And the only one I ever went to was only Unlimited. Unfortunately, the anti-Slowking strategies are usually wrecked by whatever Slowking is partnered with. My point is, that's exactly the argument I expected to hear -- "Don't like Slowking? Play Modified." Well, I did, and it's well and good, but those should not be the only options.

BJJ763 -- Note that I said Slowking is the only card that should be subject to this ban. This was to avoid just the kind of thing your response said. Yes, Slowking isn't the only card that's showing up everywhere, but it is the only one that requires a deck focus to counter. You can't just tech in anti-Slowking -- it doesn't work. If you want to beat Slowking, you have to build your deck around beating Slowking. [EDIT] And this seems to be a familiar argument. Didn't people say something like this when Slowking and Sneasel got banned from Modified?

[)v(ajin_ipg21]

BTW.

It is all about metagame. If you see Slowking metagame it. YOU don't, then you have no need for it.

GO ahead and BE stubborn but take it easy. It's ONLY a game *drips with irony*

PS Slowking TecH does work and works anti-other decks... all about playing style and deck building style...

[NoPoke]

I'ts a baby and its cute and yellow and Slowking doesn't like it much.

[dkates]

Yeah, there's Pichu, but that is easily foiled. After all, Slowking does have 80 HP. 4 turns is plenty of time to foil the little yellow rat.

[jdb728]

I agree with dkates wholeheartidly, something should be done about Slowking, the card is way too far beyond "broken", sure there are counters to it, but the problem is that the only way to constantly beat Slowking, is to build the entire deck to counter Slowking, and then the deck will lose to almost everything else.

The problem isn't that Slowking counters Trainermon, it's that Slowking keeps one player from even being able to play trainers, while allowing the one playing Slowking to play as much Trainermon as they want. I have no real problem with Dark Vileplume, while Dark Vileplume counters Trainermon, at least it works against both players. Those of you who play Slowking to "counter Trainermon", you shouldn't have any problem with playing Dark Vileplume instead(unless of course you have a problem playing a card that's not so completely unfairly one-sided).


That's just my opinion, it may not be worth much, after all, I was only a Master Prof(only reason I'm not anymore is because PUSA took over and put us all back at Prof). I also have too much first hand expirience seeing Slowking wins so many games because it's so far beyond broken.

[Baboon]

I agree with dkates to a point. Unlimited is definitely hurt by Slowking in multiples. When people's whole decks run off of shutting down the opponent, such as running 4 Slowkings, it kinda gets boring and pointless.
All the other cards, as he mentioned, CAN rather easily be shut down. Slowking is without boundaries for the most part.

Errata'ing Slowking as a non-Modified legal Promo, or even a Modified Promo using the Japanese wording appears to be the best in my opinion. One could argue that Slowking's been in Unlimited since 2000 as it was in Modified. The Japanese version is REALLY not broken or anything along those lines.

Now: Unlimited is not a wasteland. It's the origin of the game. It's a matter of preference. Some people like slower games with fewer choices, their format being Modified. Some like the rush of Unlimited. As long as everyone is on the level playing field, there's nothing really wrong. What I mean by this is that if everyone has Computer Search, Item Finder, Gust of Wind, etc, that's all fine. The difference with Slowking is that if a Slowking deck comes across a non-Slowking deck, THEN it's unfair. As far as Trainers go, the majority of competitive decks share a common base. Pokemon are not shared throughout.

Finally: Unlimited is STILL an official format. If it were so wasted as some people make it out to be, there would be a semi-Modified to make the Unlimited experience better, which there isn't, and probably won't be. This means currently, Unlimited is not that bad of a format, except for Slowking and a very FEW cards that hurt it. I personally like the change of pace to something faster and with more powerful cards once in a while. Slowking just is a negative force, as Dark Vileplume was back in the original Modified. Negative cards are fair if everyone can use it, but having it so that mostly only Slowking players will have the edge is not fair.
Chaos Gym is double-sided.
Oak is used everywhere, so it's fair.
Blastoise...in 2003?
SER is used very commonly, so even though I don't like it, it's fair for Unlimited.

[dkates]

Just a note. If an errata or reprint is possible, I would vastly prefer that to completely banning the card. What is important is that it become balanced.

[ilc]

You know normally I would agree, but that's why they call it Unlimited :P I sometimes play the format(though lately I've been disembling my decks, seeing why bother? No tournaments for it anyways), and if they started adding restrictions and bans on Unlimited.... it just wouldn't be the same. I see your point how Slowking is messed up, but still..... Unlimited is Unlimited :P

~ilc

[BJJ763]

You missed the point.

In Unlimited you either play Slowking or play Anti-king.
You play ER/SER or Anti-ER/SER.
You play Super Speed or Disruption (or both).
You play Gym or Counter Gym.

That's why it's Unlimited. Nothing wrong with Trainermon. Except i don't want you to play it against me. Hence my use of Slowking to counter your deck.

[Kyfogre22]

Ok, for the people who still play rogue unlimited, slowking is a killer. The first ban from unlimited should definately be slowking. Not only does he ruin the game with his one-sided complete trainer denial, he has become an archetype that you HAVE to play a deck against to beat. I agree with the people who say slowking is banned, however I don't agree with BJJ763 in saying that everyone plays those, because they don't. The people who truely play unlimited play it rogue and play it fun. If you can't understand that, then you are one of the many that the con-slowking are against, because you play and build those decks. you ruin our fun.

[dkates]

And that, BJJ763, is the problem. There are those few cards that you play, counter, or both. I think a lot of players are getting disappointed because of this. While limiting Unlimited seems counter-intuitive, many of these situations can be fixed with reprints that change the nature of the cards somewhat. Slowking can (and, IMO, should) be reprinted as what it should have been all along -- the wording that the Japanese version had. SER could become a Supporter, I suppose, but I don't really think it's necessary. The (S)ER/anti-(S)ER situation is one we've gotten used to and learned how to account for. The other things you mentioned don't need to change, IMO, for the same reason as the (S)ER/anti-(S)ER situation. The problem is that with Slowking, it's not so simple. Slowking users have long since learned how to counter the best counters to Slowking, which means that people who plan to counter Slowking also have to counter their counters to anti-Slowking. This means that countering Slowking by splashing in anti-Slowking tech doesn't work -- the Slowking players see it coming, and just bring out their counters. Hopefully, that's clearer than it seems.

[MonkeyMan]

Slowking is a great card but you can play around it unlimited is fine as is

[dkates]

My entire point is, that's not true. You can't really play around Slowking. You can counter it, yes, although it is difficult, but "playing around it" is a very different concept. And it's not just a "great card" -- it's an unbelievably, unreasonably, undeniably broken one. That is why I started this thread. If Slowking were just a "great card," I wouldn't have said anything.

[Am Pm]

Slowking is challenging, but I say it shouldn't be banned. I played an undefeated slowking deck in an unlimited tournament, and it was difficult, the match lasted 45 minutes. But I just used his own slowking against him, and ended up winning the match.
My point is, I understand how dkate's feels, but Slowking can be defeated. Although when Slowking and D. Gator are combined, They prove to be the hardest combination to beat.

[Maverick Hunter Zero]

I'm a bit split on this issue... Playing in SoCali for so long, I've gotten used to things the way IPGeek put it, "It is all about metagame".

But then, we're talking about Slowking. This is something you always have to consider, ALWAYS, you KNOW you will see it. It's not a matter of if, but when. Sneasel is hurt dramatically by the fact that it requires special energy, and we have ER/SER, which is played so commonly that there's a chance you could go an entire tournament without seeing it.

But slowking is the other way around. Granted disruption is good, but the way it is now, it's one sided, unfair, frustrating, and altering every Unlimited deck you EVER make because of one obscenely broken card just isn't fair.

Sure, you can say "Bring out Pichu" or "Bring out a Muk, Slowking's done". Well, Even with the baby power, Pichu only has 30 HP, and Muk sports a shirt that says "GOW Bait". If slowking is out BEFORE those cards, you'll be working VERY hard to get them out, and they can be gone INSTANTLY.

I dunno. I'm bad at arguing. Slowking is FAR too powerful and dominant. I'm all for reprinting it with the correct translation.

[EDIT - Am Pm, used his own Slowking against him? How the fr4k did you do that? Slowking has almost no drawbacks.]

[jdb728]

Of course, I think the main thing you need to go to for proof that Slowking is too broken is 2002 Worlds, if I remember correctly, almost all(if not all) of the decks that made top8 were Slowking decks. That's not even bringing up the point that Crobat was still being played, but the 10- champion deck at Worlds was a Slowking/Donphan, if that's not proof enough, I don't know what is, Slowking made a deck with Donphan as the main attacker win Worlds.

[Prime]

If the japanese one is different, why isn't the american errated?

[Am Pm]

"Quote, originally posted by Maverick zero hunter, [EDIT - Am Pm, used his own Slowking against him? How the fr4k did you do that? Slowking has almost no drawbacks.]

Well you see every card has flaw's, Slowking happens to have high retreat cost. As soon as my opponent laid down his first slowking, having cleffa as my active, I just simply played gust of wind. He only would get one flip for one slowking. Either I could play gust of wind, or it would go back on top of my deck just for me to eeeek. I wouldn't let him get more than 1 slowking out at a time. By the time he managed to get 3 slowking's out he had used about all of his good trainer's, and I had my sneasel's loaded and my bench full. So I just knocked out one pokemon after another until I won.

[SteveP]

I've heard all these arguments, especially after last year's Worlds and the over-use of Slowking/something. Banning Slowking from Unlimited would make it "Limited" or "Restricted." Do we want to add another format to OP? Personally, I'd love a "Restricted" format (banned and restricted cards), but creating such a format would require effort (i.e., watch lists, focus groups, committee hearings, etc.), unless of course we wanted to vest the power to ban cards to a select few. Please, no! Plus, I'm not sure many local TOs would implement or use Restricted tournaments. But, it could definately see use at high-level championships.

Listen, almost everyone knows that Slowking is broken. We're not arguing that dkates. Banning it from "Unlimited" is not the answer. Creating a "Restricted" format could work.

[PokePop]

If the japanese one is different, why isn't the american errated?

I don't think they realized it was different right away and the players didn't seem to realize it's brokeness for about 6 months or so! So there was no need to errata it then.
There were so many good cards in Neo: Genesis and people were so used to Beatdown that no one paid any attention to it for quite a while!

By that point, it was too late to errata it.

[dkates]

Listen, almost everyone knows that Slowking is broken. We're not arguing that dkates. Banning it from "Unlimited" is not the answer. Creating a "Restricted" format could work.Please note that I am now only proposing that Slowking be banned if changing it is not an option, which I would wager it is. As far as the "Restricted" format, that too sounds like a good idea -- I'd even be willing to help create the list of banned cards, given the oppurtunity.

[ukpokemonpro]

Unlimited.. mmm MUK, Pichu, Gyms loads of Anti Slowking Tech .. Banning is not needed..

And if you haven't seen a deck runnuing 4 Pichu then watch those Slowkings die ...

Certainly if we are driving the game forward I cannot understand the point in twittering about Unlimited anyhow it's a sometimes format here where we play Modified and Modified mostly after all we want to keep the game fresh and PUI/TPC want to sell cards .. job done.. leave slowking as is .. ready for Xmas when it will get a right PICHU STUFFING..

[dkates]

So, basically, you're saying that to easily counter Slowking, you have to sacrifice your own ability to use Pokemon Powers? NOT a good thing, my friend. There are plenty of Pokemon Power strategies and combos that need some Trainer support, but are very viable. Damage Swap Stall (more commonly known as Damage Swap), for example. It's been weakened by Cleffa, but that's handled easily enough. But the strategy does depend on Trainers like Scoop Up, Mr. Fuji, Pokemon Center, etc. Therefore, if the opponent gets his Slowkings going, what are you supposed to do? Any Slowking deck built by anyone who knows how Slowking works will never have Slowking active if it can be helped. And believe me, it usually can. I've played against enough Slowking decks to know that. Can Slowking be countered? Of course. But are these counters necessarily compatible with every otherwise good deck? NO! Dark Vileplume renders Slowking useless, but it's a Stage 2. That means a deck focus. Not necessarily a bad thing in and of itself, but it's only one deck option, and requires a skilled deckbuilder who's lucky enough to have that many (preferably Holo) Dark Vileplume. Pichu can kill Slowking in a matter of 4 turns, barring healing by the Slowking user. But it means minimizing, or preferably avoiding your own use of Pokemon Powers, which kills many strategies. (OT, but I might add, I'm not that fond of Pichu...) Muk shuts down Slowking's Power, but it again means using no Pokemon Powers yourself, AND Muk is a Stage 1 that is harder to keep alive than Slowking is. So, as you can see, building to counter Slowking limits deck options by quite a bit. There are plenty of deck strategies that I have long wanted to try. But since many of these strategies are only for Unlimited, guess what? I have to assume that my opponent will use Slowking, since that assumption is often (though not always) right. And if I build to beat Slowking, it usually ruins the deck idea.
It's not only that, though. It's the fact that Slowking makes the game boring. You heard me -- BORING! Putting down a card and watching my opponent flip 3 or 4 coins, knowing that unless, by some miracle of chance, they all land tails, that card not only does nothing, but I get it again next turn is the ultimate in boredom.
As it is, I haven't played in any tournaments lately, partly because in an Unlimited tournament, it's reasonable to assume that at least half of the decks will have Slowking. In casual play, I accept Unlimited matches only under the condition of no Slowking.
So, is this what I'm left with? Casual play and Modified? Letting hundreds upon hundreds of cards sit in my binders just because they would have been good if it weren't for this one card? Well, the whole point of this thread is to make sure that I, and other players like myself, are not forced into that ugly scenario. I've been with this game too long to quit. But I want to be able to enjoy all aspects of it, not all aspects but one large one.
I would also ask everyone who has posted against doing anything about Slowking these questions. Have you used a Slowking deck? If so, did most of your opponents have about as much chance of winning as you did, or is the match practically decided before it starts? Did most of your opponents have fun playing against your deck? I would wager that most or all of your answers are yes, no, no.

[BJJ763]

"If so, did most of your opponents have about as much chance of winning as you did, or is the match practically decided before it starts? "

Now that's the thing about Competitive Unlimited - the crucial coin flip is the one that determines who goes first. So it really came down to who won that flip.

"Did most of your opponents have fun playing against your deck?"

Um in Competitive Unlimited, the goal is to win. Not let your opponent have a good time. If i'm going to a Competitive Unlimited tourney, i'm going to win. If my opponent does not have a good time, sorry but that's the game. If i want to have fun in Unlimited, i'll be playing Casual Unlimited. I've had many good times doing Casual Unlimited.

I dunno you seem to think that in Competitive Unlimited play that all cards should be playable. Sorry but they aren't. Never will be. You don't like Muk because then you can't use Pokémon Powers. Besides Mind Games, off the top of my head, Raindance and Gaze come to mind with Damage Swap and Energy Trans a distant second (very distant). But Raindance few and far and the others are only a surprise deck. Competitive Unlimited i think of Chansey (well not anymore with the new Metal), Sneasel, Scyther, Clefable, Wigglytuff, and maybe Hitmonchan and Electabuzz as attackers. Oh yeah and Tyrogue. Other Pokémon like Cleffa, Pichu, and Muk are supporting Pokémon. Even Blastoise as a supporter. The tried and true Pokémon have been tested again and again in Competitive Unlimited. Will be interesting to see if something like Rare Candy makes any impact.

In Competitive Unlimited people are going to play the power house cards. They want to win. They have fun by winning. You want to have fun in Competitive Unlimited by playing a rogue deck? Feel free. If you're idea of fun is winning, then you'd better have a good deck.

[dkates]

Granted, you play competitive Unlimited to win, but where's the fun in winning when you have an unfair advantage, to the point that you almost can't lose except in the very unlikely event of a bad draw? Thing is, in Modified, a rogue deck can be a good deck, and vice versa. In Unlimited, though, the situation is such that that is all but impossible. True, Slowking is not the only card that has made that the case, but it's been a prime factor. Even in Unlimited, shouldn't it be possible to win consistently with a rogue deck?
Should all cards be playable in Unlimited? No. Some cards were never playable, and the field shouldn't be leveled that much. But, IMO, there are not enough playable cards in Unlimited, despite the size of the overall card pool. Many cards WERE playable until a certain few power cards, a large portion of which you listed, came on to the scene and shoved them off the playables list. Now, one thing I have always held true is that for every strategy, there is at least one counter-strategy of nearly equivalent effectiveness. If there isn't, the game's broken, possibly beyond repair. Unlimited isn't there yet, but it's dangerously close. I am just trying to do my part to keep it from going over the edge.
On a side note, even without the help of Metal Energy, Chansey is still quite playable. I've tried it. Just make sure you have Gold Berries, Unown N, and a way to make sure Unown N doesn't get sniped out of the game too fast.

[jdb728]

"Banning is not needed..", exactly, banning isn't needed, but if it's not gonna be changed to what it should have always been, then banning may unfortunately be the only option to balance out the game.

"And if you haven't seen a deck runnuing 4 Pichu then watch those Slowkings die ...", yes, Pichu can take out the Slowkings, but it takes four turns, and that's if they don't use any Gold Berries or any other type of healing. How long do you think the opponent's gonna keep gettin' tails for Baby Rule?

"By that point, it was too late to errata it.", evidently they didn't think it was too late to erratta all the Pokemon including Base Set(Multipule years after it came out) with Pokemon Powers that said they stop working when the Pokemon's Asleep, Confused or Paralyzed, to say the Power stops working if the Pokemon is affected by a Special Condition(So Poison, and later on Burn along with any new ones they may come out with would shut off the Powers) because that's the way it was always suppossed to be.

[)v(ajin_ipg21]

I have to Ditto BJJ.

Casual Unlimited can be fun.

BUT COMPETITIVE Unlimited is not for the weak of heart.
You better expect slowking and Sneasal.

THEY way of the beast.

I think someone suggested YOUR AREA must have MORE modified tourneys. Can you be a TO? Can you talk to your TO? HOW are all other players in your area? Satisfied with the tourney scene?

I used to alternate formats BUT modified became so much more important we greatly reduced the # of unlimited formats. *Esp since Premier events were modified*

AND like BJJ said IN UNLIMITED it is all about going for the jugular, so I HAVE no idea what OTHER Pokemon I would want to play that MAY have a pokemon power.

Slowking. Maybe DVile *but iggly killed this deck* If I don't play slowking I play ALL FREE RETREATERS and low energy costs pokemon.

If not there is always clefable and plenty of ER & SER's.

[Cyrus]

Now, dkates, at one point, back in the day, I agreed with you: Slowking was TOO good, and Wizards' worst case of a reprint.

However, my naive view about unlimited is vanquished, after a few solid years of field experience, I can say that unlimited is like a ghetto: it can't be fixed, and the worst kinds of scum will be rampant 'til the end of time. I've been having a little fun with e-on decks in unlimited, and have seen myself FRYING Slowking/Sneasel with funny, yet potent cards like Garde ex. Then again, it's more likely than not my local metagame, so....yah, whatever :rolleyes:

[Captain Obviousx1]

Slowking is illegal in my Unlimited AIM tournament because it takes the fun out of the game. There's always something to work around, but working around a single card to the point of making a counter deck is just insane. Personally, if the flips didn't add up, I would welcome 'King. However, since having more than one at once benefits you in such a way, I don't like the card. I agree, Slowking needs the errata, or a ban.

[Jeremy Badeaux]

Um in Competitive Unlimited, the goal is to win. Not let your opponent have a good time. If i'm going to a Competitive Unlimited tourney, i'm going to win. If my opponent does not have a good time, sorry but that's the game. If i want to have fun in Unlimited, i'll be playing Casual Unlimited. I've had many good times doing Casual Unlimited.

That sounded incredibily wrong considering we are talking about a GAME with no large-scale unlimited format events.
I guess that means BJJ would be well suited to play Magic and DBZ(considering nothing more than your opinions on how far people should be willing to go to achieve a small scale tournament win).

Slowking is challenging, but I say it shouldn't be banned. I played an undefeated slowking deck in an unlimited tournament, and it was difficult, the match lasted 45 minutes. But I just used his own slowking against him, and ended up winning the match.

You do understand that a round is normally only 30 minutes long(at the most), don't you, and that Slowking only starts to falter if the game lasts a while and decking out becomes a problem?
I would like to know how well you were doing when the 30 minute mark hit.

You were able to beat slowking because it was basically the same thing as the Japanese version(only one out using it's power), not to mention the your opponent obviously didn't run ER/SER (wich is what makes slowking so broken. the ability to impede your opponents trainers and have no drawbacks).

Nobody here is saying that 1 Slowking = "7331 pwn4ge", we just want it to be non-stackable(even if it doesn't have to be in the active spot, just as long as it's not stackable).

In a mirror-match it normally comes down to skill of the players, Slowking vs Slowking isall about who gets unlusky first.

[mozartrules]

The main problem with Slowking is that all that flipping makes the games take too long even when nobody has much to think about!

But I agree that unlimited is a wasteland that cannot be saved, so there is no need to bother with banning Slowking.

[dkates]

I have seen a number of people here say that the skew of Unlimited can't be fixed. It was even said that the opinion to the contrary is "naive." Maybe so, but I think not. I think that IF enough of us work together to do something about it, the imbalance of Unlimited can be lessened. Not eliminated, but lessened.

[Cyrus]

Dkates, sorry to have possibly been offensive with the "naive" remark. However, I still stick by the remark, as Slowking can be countered easier than you think:

-Igglybuff: Freeze the power per turn, and use your trainers. Believe me: They usually won't get out 3-4 Slowkings. Highly effective
-Muk: Just freeze the powers permanently, simple as that. Slightly effective; weak against a real attacker.
-Setup through other methods: Hey, attacks that draw for you (ie Cleffa) are life-savers. Fairly effective.
-Aerodactyl: Freeze the evolution. Not very effective.

Just metagame, my friend. Metagame. That's what built modified, and what even builds a chaotic format like this one. ;)

[dkates]

Once again, my point has been missed. I've said it before, I'll say it again. I KNOW Slowking can be countered. But even so, the card is extremely broken, to the point that a large number of otherwise good decks have been rendered inviable. It is the most broken card ever printed, and does not deserve to be allowed to continue to destroy the game. If the people in charge of the game think that by forcing it out of the Modified format, leaving it to wreak havoc in Unlimited, solved the problem, they are dead wrong, and it's time something was done.

[Porygon3]

but... even if someone said "ok" slowking is baned in unlimited... who would lission?

[dkates]

If just "someone" said it, nobody would listen. If Nintendo of America said it, people would listen.

[)v(ajin_ipg21]

IMO you WILL NOT convinced us that SLOWKING should be banned.

If errata'ed well that is for the powers that be. BUT LESSEN UNLIMITED brokenness?

That is what modified is for... to USE and ABUSE of powers/bodies & evolutions.

UNLIMITED will remain BROKEN and unbalanced.

*Hey that comment on the GHETTO could easily be offensive, don't change it but I MUST protest*

[dkates]

OK, then, what would convince you? I have used everything I know to convince everyone that a change of some sort is necessary -- mathematical analysis, personal experience, logical argument. All have apparently failed.
Actually, I have a smaller, more immediate proposal. I started this thread in part to find out how the Gym community feels about this issue. I've seen a number of well-written opinions, but I would like to get a sense of how the community as a whole feels about the issue, and I do not feel that this discussion, helpful and interesting though it is, accomplishes this purpose. If it turns out that this community as a whole does not support this idea, then the subject can and should be dropped. If the community does support the idea, however, we can take it to Nintendo (or whoever is in charge of the Unlimited format), who in turn may do something about it.
On Wizpog, I remember a poll being set up for an entirely different reason -- determining whether Wizpog posts would be transferred to the new Gym. Could this be done again, regarding this issue? I believe that could give us all some sense of where the community stands.

[EDIT]The way I see it, there are basically 4 possible responses to this issue. I've listed them here from (roughly, and purely my own opinion) most desirable to least desirable.
Errata, with subsequent reprint. This one is, without a doubt, the most work for Nintendo, but it also has the most effects (not necessarily all positive, but more positive than negative). First, it balances the card, which is really what I was after all along. Second, it puts the new wording where it will be seen by more players -- on a card. Finally, it brings the card into Modified. You heard me -- this version gives Slowking a probation! Maybe this time it won't break the format... Errata without reprint. This one's probably easier on Nintendo than the above option. It balances the card, as in the above option. However, it also makes it necessary to publicize the ruling, rather than letting the reprint rule do the work. It does keep it out of Modified, though. Ban from Unlimited. My original proposal. Simple, but extreme. Changes the concept of Unlimited, but makes it a little more playable, IMO. Do nothing. This is the only option I would not like to see at all. Slowking gets carte blanche to continue its reign of terror on Unlimited, I end up having wasted my time, and things continue more or less as they were.

[Tego]

Slowking is without discussion the most important card in Unlimited. I can see why people hate him, but there's no need to ban him. That would just cause new problems again.

Leave Unlimited the way it is, and people who still like to play the format, may do so. :/

[ProfessorTorchic]

Um geesh guys, there is answer to Slowking, it's called Igglybuff.
Yes that's right Igglybuff!!!
Gaze away the Kings and you've just rendered 6 to 8 of their cards meaningless.

In return you get 2-3 babies to stall.

Slowking shouldn't be banned for the mere fact that you do have ways to counter it. Sneasel on the other hand has no counter and no equal.

[Mr. Raichu]

My entire point is, that's not true. You can't really play around Slowking. You can counter it, yes, although it is difficult, but "playing around it" is a very different concept. And it's not just a "great card" -- it's an unbelievably, unreasonably, undeniably broken one. That is why I started this thread. If Slowking were just a "great card," I wouldn't have said anything.

[Mr. Raichu]

i vote to keep slowking it is fun to play and no fun to play agianst but if you do not like it that is what modified is for. (and other reasons)

[mysterioustrainer]

Unlimited means only one thing Unlimited. That means no restrictions, bans, or anything that takes away the full potienial of the game. The only reason we have two cards on the ban list for Unlimited (Birthday Pikachu and Anceint Mew) is because those two cards are pshycally incompatible with the rest of the game. If there is any card that should be banned from Unlimited I would say Blaine's Quiz #1 would have to be it for the same reason.

Slowking has a great power in the english version however there are plenty of ways to counter this problem. Let me name a few:

Muk (Fossil, Legendary)
Igglybuff (Neo Discovery)
Umbreon (Skyridge)
any Pokemon capable of invoking Special Conditions.
Machamp (Skyridge)
Dark Machamp (Rocket)
Victreebel (Aquapolis)
Erika's Victreebel (Gym Heroes)
Cyclone Energy
Psychic (Ghost variety) Type Pokemon
Dark Type Pokemon
Slowking (Neo Genesis)
Choas Gym (Gym Challenge)
Dark Vileplume (Team Rocket)
and best paying off strategy of all...
JUST DON'T PLAY TRAINERS (That is how I beat MTM's Chaos Gym once)

Most Unlimited tournaments I know of are simple and not really worth fighting to the death for. Perhaps only during Stadium Challenges Side Events, Worlds Side Events, and the conventions are there unlimited tournaments that really matter. But there is no much there. So then yeah build totally nasty decks, totally nasty strategies, but most unlimited tournaments I play in are not for the prize, just for the fun.

One last note, I remember that MTM saying that you make a good trading card game when you don't have to ban any cards from play. So there are more than enough good reasons why Slowking should stay.

[Articjedi]

Then you wasted your time, slowking can be played around, and you can easily metagame it with a couple of igglys or a pichu in your deck. My favorite is to play SI Jigglypuff to gust it up.

Unlimited really shouldn't be of any concern, the point of that format is to make sure all of the cards are playable, regardless of power.

[BJJ763]

Hey myst you forgot Brock's Mankey with the Gust attack - Gust out Slowking and KO it next turn.

[Mob2099]

my 2 cents....
slowking doesnt need to be ban. it has these counters:
muk, igglybuff, areodactyl, pichu, and many of the new feint attack pokemon are 40 for 3 colorless( 2 attacks and no slowking), magby.
all very slashable to fit in a main deck idea and one of these are secondary.

and sneasel has counters:
tyrogue, erikas dratini, ser, ditto(+dce), broken ground gym
all very slashable to fit in a main deck idea and one of these are secondary.

unlimited is good, change factor is low with a low originality, but this is were HOW YOU PLAY counts more than what you play(cause everyone is play the same archetypes) and by the way this is how it is in anygame taht has been around awhile that the format has beenout so long that everything that could be thought of to break has been broken.

and isnt that what half the game is, to find a stratagy in the cards that just makes it broken, and to be the first.

[Broken Lizard]

I have always thought that Unlimited could be made a much better format if 3 cards were banned: Slowking, Sneasel (NG) and SER. Without those 3, the format would be a whole lot more diverse. Banning only 1 of these three would be a bad move. Even better than banning Slowking and Sneasel would be a reprint of Slowking with the correct text, and a reprint of Sneasel with a Fighting weakness. SER, however, is an unredeemable card that drives trainermon and makes most evolutions unplayable (without Slowking). Haymakers came to dominate Unlimited 'back in the day' primarily because of SER.

And yes, BJJ is right when he points out that we must be wary of a 'slippery slope'... Once the bannings start, everyone wants to add their personal 'most-hated card' to the list. That's only natural. There are lots of cards in the early sets that are overpowered (like Blastoise and Clefable) that would be right behind Slowking on the chopping block.

Don't get me wrong; Unlimited is still fun on occasion. It's just not as good as it could be. It also would not be UNlimited if cards were banned. Still, I'd be in favor of playtesting a Slowking/NG Sneasel/SER ban.

I doubt it'll happen though. =/

[PokePop]

Haymaker killed all evos without those three cards. The format will always be unbalanced.

[Android17a]

I must admit I've never seen a Slowking card in my life.

[Am Pm]

They should reprint the card to where the power affect's both trainer's.

[Maverick Hunter Zero]

Then it's Dark Vileplume with a coin flip. THAT is meaningless.

[cattdreams]

I think what people are getting at is mainly unlimited with "house rules". and when you get enough people doing the same house rules, you get a nice little extra modified.
I think that unlimited should be just that, unlimited, but I'm all for a second modified where instead of sets being cut out, specific cards from each set are cut out.

[Am Pm]

True. I to thought about that. But what else can we do? If you don't want to change it, then don't complain about it. Slowking isn't unbeatable.

[Golden Suikun]

I must be honest with you, I never played a full-fledged Standard battle (I don't have much leauge/tourney access at all), and even when I run across Slowking, it is on Apprentice, and I haven't played that in about a year. Anyway, my take on this is Slowking shouldn't be banned from Standard. Slowking is not invinceable (unlike Feraligatr from the Rocket-On days....back then every deck had Caterpie, Erika's Bellsprout, and even Giovanni's Nidoran just to counter it...those were the days), and could be knocked out and countered if you build a powerful deck around it. However, I wouldn't mind its ruling to be changed to the original Japanese; it would make Slowking a much fairer card to play, considering Slowking's other stats (not too good retreat and not the best of attacks). Unlimited means "no limits," so therefore I believe anyone should play any card legal for tournament play. Like someone else posted earlier, one ban in Unlimited just leads to more banning until we're left with our weakest cards. I am starting to get more interested in the Japanese point-based card restrictions, though....

[Tego]

What beats Slowking in Unlimited is originality. I played Slowking/Sneasel/Murkrow at Worlds Wizards/ Professor Challenge, and the only matches I lost were against very original decks. I placed 16th overall, and the deck beat almost anything. But Blaine's Charizard, f. ex. managed to beat the deck.

[KingOfDemons]

Your kidding right? Ban Genesis Slowking?!?!

First of all. It is my honest opinion that I agree with the Wizards of the Coast reasons why Anciet Mew and Birthday Pikachu got banned. ANcient Mew because it's written in gibberish and the only way to play the card is by a translation (reminds me of another set of cards too *cough GOD CARDS cough*). ANd Birthday Pikachu because you need a birth certificate (a legal document) to prove that today's your birthday or else you'll be LYING! I honestly believe in these reasons.

But to ban Genesis Slowking because it's powerful!!?!? Oh that's so wrong!

There are a lot of cards in the the pool to counter it, I can name 5 off the top of my head. Discovery Igglybuff (shut off Slowking for a turn to play your trainers), Genesis Pichu (wanna play Slowking, fine. 20 Damage to it!), Fossil Muk (SHUT THAT POWER OFF BAH-BEE!), Fossil Aerodactyl (Slowking is an Evolution you know), and Goop Gas Attacks (yeah it shuts off powers for a turn and it's a trainer, but if you want to take a chance...).

There are ways around Genesis Slowking. Even reinforce it too if you combine it with Dark Vileplume and Genesis Murkrow.

Ban Slowking. Nope.

[djcati]

Personally, I agree with the point that unlimited is unlimited for a reason.
If Slowking was reprinted with the right text, great.
Maybe a second modified (say, Neo on again?) could be made, great.

But banning a card from unlimited just shoots down everything that unlimited IS, it's a place to play all your old cards, have fun - see, FUN, nothing serious - with your friends, or other people...
If you want to run your own tourney with unlimited format, but a ban on Slowking, then nothing's stopping you, is it?

So... no. I don't think Slowking should be banned.

[jesschow12]

slowking doesnt ruin the game

tyrogue is destroying pokemon !!

[Marcello-Milord]

Many of you said a right thing: Unlimited is Unlimited, cards cannot be banned.
We all know that US Slowking is broken, and Japanese version is not.
The most valuable solution, I think, is - as 1 of you proposed - to authorize a new format, different from Unlimited. A Restricted format, with some Ban as Sneasel, Slowking, and - why not - CPU Search, and so on.
PUI has the right to make rulings on the cards, they are now responsibles for this game, and for all formats. WoTC was able on that when cards were produced by them, but they can no longer make any more rulings on Slowking.
Neo-on is gone, the Ban is gone too.
Or PUI makes an Errata on Slowking (which is difficult as banning it was, but it's the best thing to do), or PUI leaves Slowking in all its brokeness in Unlimited. But where's fun? Yes there are many cards to counter the King, but if I want to make an Unlimited deck, why have I to cut out cards (and room) from my deck only to add the Slowking counters, as I know that 90% I'll find a Slowking in my opponent's arena?

We should suggest to make an Errata on the website, and on te Floor Rules too. And each and every Professor that runs an Unlimited tournament should advice players before the start that an errata was made.
Do you know how much time we (in Italy) had to spend to explain to players that the 2nd attack of Dark Ursaring was mis-translated in italian, so that it seemed to be the same Sneasel's Beat Up attack? Many of them made a Dark Ursaring deck, but - after explaining the real version of the card - they started to cry 'cause their deck were useless.

Maybe the same thing will happen with Slowking... but only at the start. After, all players will know about the errata and troubles will be out.

That's my .2 eurocents :)

[FlygonChampion]

I personally hate Unlimited, because I always get creamed. I mean, all those cards you have to use, and so on and so forth, and seeing I missed expansions here and there, and have never actually collected a whole set, let alone be able to make a good deck out of it, @_@.

I really could care less about it all....

[League Leader Terry]

I agree with what most of you have said. Unlimited is Unlimited. Cards shouldn't be banned and Unlimited can't be balanced. Simple as that. Now, seeing how I got out of the game around Neo 2 or 3, I never saw Slowking be that much of a problem. Heck, for that matter, the only real Sneasel decks around here were my friend Erick's Aku deck and the pretenders that tried to copy him. SER, on the other hand, I saw abused constantly by others and myself. And yet, I wouldn't want to see it banned from Unlimited. Now, if you're talking about a special format like Neo Block, then by all means, ban Sneasel! Send that little devil right back to--oh wait, it's Slowking that worries you. :) Ban him, too, I guess. But let Unlimited be Unlimited.

[Leccz]

I disagreed with the California recall and I disagree with this movement to ban card(s) from unlimited play. Yes, I say cards because this is where it begins. Counter moves have been found for most all others cards, but because many found the answer to the SlowKing riddle elusive, they banned it from modified play. Now that it has enter the realm of Unlimited play, he should remain untouchable.

Why not just propose a ban list for every tournament and take a vote for which cards the participants want to exclude? Because that would be utterly ridiculous, and lead to chaos, as would this proposal.

The answer to SlowKing is out there however obscure. Focus on the answer!!

[Espeonus Maximus]

I've always viewed unlimited as the Battlegrounds of Veteran Pokémon Players. The ones that have been involved since the Base sets were released. Then slowly the players with 2 or 3 years experience.
Its a tough format no doubt and it does take true grit to play in this format simply because there's a good chance of getting clobbered.

My first exposure to Unlimited was Slowking/Sneasel. It wasn't long before I figured out how to get around Slowking and soon he disappeared from our area. Some newbies come in occasionally and try to play him, but he just ends up as prize bait.

At the 2003 Gencon, I saw several different deck types, using various combinations, not one dominated. I don't recall seeing an overbearing presence of Slowking there.

Slowking should stay, every game needs an antagonist, or it wouldn't be much fun.

[babayaga]

Hmm, the biggest problem I see with Sloking is the vast difference in how it plays between the Japanese and American versions. I believe it should be standardized to the orginally intended action, which is apparently the Japansese. Errata or reprint, but get the two versions in line. Otherwise it's a mess for international competition. That would make banning a moot point.

[DARKGeNGaR094]

A format with banned cards (slowking) is then no longer unlimited. The best way to stop slowking dominating without limiting unlimited is errata/reprint. Alot of people won't know about the errata, which causes complaining slowking players holding up a tournament. A reprint would be best, because it would then allow a (most of the time) non-broken slowking in modified (slowking active, armaldo on bench :P)

[BJJ763]

the biggest problem I see with Sloking is the vast difference in how it plays between the Japanese and American versions.

And that's the rub - there is a big difference in how Japanese Trainers and American Trainers play.

[Lion_of_Darkness]

I agree. Slowking can be very annoying and obnoxious when your opponent has three or more on the Bench waiting to take away all hopes of turning the game around to your favor. After all, a fun game shouldn't make someone feel that way! I would like to get Slowking exiled from the world of "strategic" Unlimited Pokemon, but it's not that strategic with Slowking in the wave of tyranny. It would be the most powerful playable card to ever get banned. I would conclude, if _______'s Pikachu is considered "overpowered", then certainly Slowking should get banned. Of all the mistakes the Pokemon TCG has ever made, Slowking is the worst. I LOVE this idea, since I HATE Slowking! And I would like to offer a list to Nintendo to ban Slowking if all those in favor of strategy over power would type their username on this thread. I will print out this list and possibly get PTCO to do the same as us. Things like this have worked successfully on PTCO, so I wouldn't know why a more intelligent site couldnt do the same with a greater outcome. Come on, Pokegym! I know that this won't do much by itself, but if we have enough agreements, it could do something. Here's mine:

Lion_of_Darkness
dkates
Magnechu
Kyfogre22

Please, we need more replies! This stuff does work, believe it or not...

[djcati]

.. I'm in favour of a reprint, but not an outright ban. If it's an outright ban, then you can't call it unlimited, and your proposal is actually for a new format.

[davechri]

Slowking - I hate him.

My favorite Unlimited deck is Dark Vileplume (I was previously "Dark and Vile") and I figure there are enough Slowking decks out there to warrant keeping EVERYBODY from playing trainers.

Slowking is awesome. But there's way too much of him being played.

As for banning him, I say "No." There are enough ways around him (Dark Vileplume, Igglybuff, Muk) to limit the damage he does.

[Ez1]

I think a partial answer to the slowking question is to
be found within a larger question????

Which cards make the game more competitive
and/or more fun to play??? If we go with the
idea(and this may not be true) that the greater
number of competitive decks that are playable,
the more fun the game becomes and the
greater the number of people who want to play.

With this in mind several cards have had a huge
impact on the game and the way that it
is played.

1. ER/SER made evolution decks with their
slower development time and heavier energy
requirements almost unplayable.

2. Gust of Wind made your bench a vulnerable
place putting emphasis on smaller evolution
decks aka. haymakers.

3. Sneasel with Slowking left the unlimited
format with only a handful of viable decks.

4. Slowking in modified again limited the
number of playable decks. Slowking became
a staple in the top decks.

5. Tyrogue almost made electric decks
extinct.

6. Double gust also made your bench vulnerable
making fast decks like cargo very dominant.

7. The baby powers made flips maddeningly common
and brought more of a luck element into the game.

There are probably a few other cards that have
had a huge impact but you get the idea.

Going back to the idea that if more playable
decks=more fun=more players then we should
be looking at each card and asking does
that card make the game better or worse??

I think that the number of new, exciting and
playable(able to win) decks being posted
on the gym show the impact some of these
cards have had in the past. With no gust/double gust
your bench is much better protected and you
can develop a wider line of strategies.
Without er/ser you can play evolution decks.
Without slowking/chaos gym you can play
trainers. Without some of these cards the
game isn't first to play first to win the
way that it was in the past.

I think that we should have a main format(now eon)
that thinks heavily about the impact
of each card on the health of the game
and react quickly to those cards that
prove to have a negative impact. That
means possible banning in the main format.

After that I feel that we should let each
group decide on its own what cards to add
or delete in a specific format. Every league
I've seen seems to have it's own variations.
If you want to play unlimited with slowking
then do so. If your group doesn't then don't.

Personally I always found slowking games boring.
They were little more than a race to see who
got them first and then seemingly endless
rounds of flips.

JUst my opinion.
Sorry this is so long.

[Corinth Maxwell]

My opinion is that, I have no opinion yet. I have never seen that card before, and don't really know what to say about that. I've never seen BDay Pikachu, either, but I know it's been banned from all sanctioned tournaments. If I HAD slowking, then I could give a more accurate opinion. I don't play ANY card from the neo set, because I haven't completed it. I can't even find most of the cards these days. (BTW, anyone who wants to buy my older, yet mint-condition cards, PM me. They are ALWAYS for sale.)

[Cyrus]

Well, since I had a football game, I didn't get to see the entirety of this post's changes. But let me reply to this:

By Dkates:
But even so, the card is extremely broken, to the point that a large number of otherwise good decks have been rendered inviable.

Dkates, that's exactly why so many of us mentioned the counters. It isn't so broken to that point: You just have to play with the flow of the format.

[Dek]

In my opinion, Slowking should be banned. I have fought against it, I have lost against it. But I am not going to be selfish about it. Either way, I suggest the one of the following be done:

*ban it
*rewrite it and have the old copies following the Japanese rulings. after all, Nintendo owns the TCG in Japan, and it now owns the TCG in America.
*limit the number of copies (kind of like what Ultra Deck/Konami did to Monster Reborn in YGO)
*Add some new rulings I started thinking about:
1. If Slowking is in play, it must be an Active Pokemon for at least 4 turns or until the game ends.
2. If you (or your opponenet) has more than one Slowking in play, your opponent (or you) only must flip for one Slowking.
3. Use Am Pm's idea and have the Power affect BOTH players (or all players if there are 4)

I think these are some good solutions. Tell me what you think about any of these.

[Lance313]

Okay, since someone DID ask my opinion...

I am first and foremost against banning cards. Period. I died laughing at Mike G's strategy of using Ditto to counter Sneasel, though he had to swallow all his bad words about it, but I think it was a first or second turn KO at Worlds.

Second, I have beaten SlowKing decks as much as I have lost to them. I rarely run into them, as most of the players I play against prefer other kinds of cards, so it is not as much a problem for me as some seem to have. I play lots of cards that damage bench dwellers (as much for babies and to kill Pokemon before they can evolve into something dangerous as anything) and play fewer trainers than the trainermon crowd, so I am not as much a disadvantage as some of you seem to be.
Third, I disagree that you have to build a deck specifically to counter Slowking to beat it consistently. You may not be taking advantage of all the cards available to build a deck. Pichu, Pokemon powers that turn off other powers, Powers/Attacks that switch the Defending Pokemon with the bench, Attacks/Powers that move or place damage on benched Pokemon, etc. are all strategies that work against a wide variety of decks, not just as counters to Slowking. I had more trouble with SER/ER than I ever did with Slowking.

Making Unlimited more limited just to save you from one card will just make some other card the top of the most hated list. I agree with those that say "where will it end", because as soon as you have opened that Pandoras box, you cannot rightly say that that is the end and no more. What happens when a new card comes out that makes a previously released card broken? That's right, cries for a new ban. It is a road that mustn't be taken. New cards may come out that will either enhance strategies to nullify the effects of previous cards or otherwise make them less broken or usefull, and new cards may come out that make previous cards more broken. Will you then call for ban removals and new ban restrictions?

Since you asked.

フィッシャー ランス
Former Master Professor.

[LeagueMom]

Well, in what I have seen at York and in a lot of tournaments, Slowking can make the game incredibly frustrating but as we all know Unlimited does tend to become nothing but Trainermon and that is one of the reasons so many players were glad to move to Modified.
With the Japanese rules Slowking is certainly not the annoyance he was and I don't think he needs to be banned.
I say leave it the way it is. The players are used to dealing with Slowking and his ilk and have adapted. It's not banning cards that makes the game, it's the players.

[Bahamut_X]

With the various camps about whether or not to 'kill' the 'king in tournament play, I find that I would be with the camp that would keep it in play. All this from one little power that has the possibility to shut down trainers all together. As I see it; it's a good card, but once and a while people should try to make decks that are fun to play with their existing cards. And when it comes to tournaments, I haven't been to too many; I've been to too few tourneys. And at the moment, I'll be out of luck if I ran my current casual deck through modified as most of the cards are from Neo back to Base 1. However the only way that I can see to get around is to possibly use status attacks to render the power out of commision. Then again I wouldn't put all of the Slowking users in the same boat, as I will do a swap for when I do get out my Slowking to weaken my deck for its darker sibling. My reason for doing so, is there are people that would abuse some powers fairly often. If I was to take some of my battles using my own Slowking, I rarely even use it's power when I have it in my deck.

But this is coming from someone who's casual games can take as much as an hour or two to play just one game under the right conditions. Who ever said that your game should be quick has never had games that are longer then 15 minutes. There are times when the longer a game is drawn out, the more exciting it gets. As well, there is a tendancy to say that games must take a maximum of 40 minutes in a tournament. They just haven't seen two equally matched decks duke it out. Who says that you cannot have battles where opponents have almost the same strengths and weaknesses for their decks. When you have a P/D/S vs a P/D/G; it would come down not to who has more power, but the way the cards were played. Like I've managed to win games where I made early mistakes, but my deck can compensate for it. When it eventually boils down to the essence; is if you don't have it, just find a way to defeat it with what you have.

[jdb728]

P/D/S vs a P/D/G
Poliwag/Duskull/Squirtle? Poliwrath/Drowzee/Ghastly? With decks like that, I guess you haven't played in any real tourney's lately :clap: :nonono: :lol: :p

To keep this on topic, I noticed that some people keep ignoring that fact that we want it banned as a last resort, and only if errattaing it to the way it is in Japan(and the way it should have always been) isn't an option.

I also noticed that it appears people aren't looking at the fact of the problem this type of thing would cause in international play(as some have already pointed out).


Thanks for reading.

[Dunjohn]

Just to say, I don't think Eratta should be slapped onto a card that turns out to be too powerful. Eratta is an absolute last resort that should only be used where the printed text has some flaw that the designers didn't intend. Take Blaine's Charizard, for example. Slowking saw print exactly as it's WotC designers intended, and they banned it from Modified when it turned out to be a little too good. Ultimitely, the companies want their cards to do exactly what they say they do, otherwise, what's the point?

Banning Slowking from Unlimited wouldn't be a good idea either, I reckon. Like eratta, Unlimited is designed to let players use whatever cards they have without needing to know information that isn't printed on the cards. There's nothing on Slowking that would let kids know it's banned. The fewer invisible hands in this format, the better. Modified is meant for tournaments, while Unlimited is meant for just playing the game.

Slowking's japanese text isn't necessarily the way it "should always have been". It's japanese text is intended for the way the Japanese play the game. It's english text was intended for the way we play the game. WotC reworded it in order to fit the way their game had been going - and remember, Trainers had completely taken over by this point, and it was probably meant as a hoser - and, unfortunately, they messed up. The Japanese game has had similar problem cards.

[Cooltrainer Aaron]

no need for the Slowking ban. That is just one of the little cards that give a trainer a challenge. If you are a good trainer, you'd be able to counter Slowkings. With unlimited, there are tons of cards available that you can use to stop it.

[Kyfogre22]

somone who can pull slowking fast enough is at a position where its uncounterable. Four slowkings can easily be pulled on the second turn which is complete trainer denial in the worst sense of the word.

Slowking can easily be countered, If you build an archetype around it.

Seriously, how fun can it be to play an anti-slowking deck?

[BJJ763]

Wow build an entire deck around stopping Slowking. And here i just use Igglybuffs. Or Brock's Mankey. Or Pichu. Or Magby. Just a few cards put into the deck.

[Jeremy Badeaux]

Wow build an entire deck around stopping Slowking. And here i just use Igglybuffs. Or Brock's Mankey. Or Pichu. Or Magby. Just a few cards put into the deck.


I know that Slowking decks run themselves, but you might get a taste of how powerful it is if you stop playing little kids who don't know any more than what the online decklist told them.

And now to rebut all of these "counters":
Igglybuff. They send up a pichu, trigger the gold berries on their Slowkings, and KO the igglybuffs(and you can't really get them back once slowkings power is back on).

Muk. You spend time and resources getting a muk out, then your opponent will promptly gust it out and get an easy KO.

Pichu. there is a difference between having baby rule and being invincible, learn it. How long do you think your pichus will last(they need to do 80 damage to each slowking, as long as they don't flip heads for baby rule or play any healing during the next 4 turns, then you just got the upper hand).

Dark Vileplume. As long as they let the oddish and D. Glooms survive, and don't get slowkings out before you can use the nessecary speed to get your D. Plumes into play, then you just got the upper hand, for a while.

Brocks Mankey. They play switch to put slowking on the bench and slaughter the B. Mankey.

SI Jigglypuff. See Brocks Mankey(not to mention the fact that it's tyrogue bait).

Magby. Solid, but not that great against Slowking.
Your opponent is likely to either:
a. KO it, thusly shutting off the sputter effect or
b. Gust it to the bench and KO something else, thusly ending the sputter effect.

Erikas Victreebel/AQ Victreebel. We all know how great those bellsprouts and weepingbells are, and then there's no chance they would ever gust your victreebell to meet the bussiness end of a sneasel, right?

Special Conditions(please tell me this was a joke).
They aren't exactly going to be sending the Slowkings into the active spot to begin with.

[BJJ763]

I know that Slowking decks run themselves, but you might get a taste of how powerful it is if you stop playing little kids who don't know any more than what the online decklist told them.
You know, i'm getting might sick and tired of every time you respond, your reply comes in the form of an attack. You don't know me. You don't know what i play. You don't know whom i play against. If you feel that strongly against Slowking, don't play Unlimited. As stated countless times before, people will play to win with what wins. Better watch out for Modified too as i'm sure people will play card(s) that give them the advantage.

For all your counters to the counters, i can counter your counter-counters. See i can just Scoop Up my damaged Igglies. Yes they can Switch out their Slowking, but that's assuming i haven't RSAed it away. Or IPOR their hand down to 4 cards.

Now at the Prof tourney at Worlds, what deck won? A Metal Chansey (R.I.P.). It had a few Igglybuffs in it to counter the Slowkings played oh how i wished i put some in my deck. Just a few Igglies. And it took first ahead of all those Slowkings. It wasn't built to stop Slowking. It was built to get Metal on Chansey. Then win. Which it did. With only a few slots for Slowking.

[Jeremy Badeaux]

My posts are not meant as attacks, unless you consider a rebuttal to be an attack(you opened the door to that subject by bringing the players you faced into the topic, and thusly the ability of those players is also open to question, otherwise we can not have a true measurement on the abilities of the card in dispute).

You described being able to use counters on slowking decks that shouldn't have been succeptable to those counters in the first place.
You could use scoop up on your igglys, but how long do you think they would last when you have to scoop up three of them(much less when you would have to use scoop up every turn)?

A metal chancey, so you're talking about a deck that isn't based on trainers (at least not as much as energy), beating a deck that is based on trainer denial(not to mention the added strength of being able to survive beat up).

I'm in no way saying that whoever it was that won the prof event isn't skilled, but a lot of people were running random decks that were meant to have fun(shoot, nick15 even used fastly).

[LightUmbreon]

die slowking die! anyway, bcuz e-cards suck and eon is a boring, shoddy, half-***ed format, I am an avid unlimited player. And yeah, slowking should be banned. Reasons:

1. Slowking is a big, fat, not to mention pink(if you know what i mean), LOSER. He should be banned so he could eat cheetos or something, the fatty.

2. He's cheap. He's cheaper than a penny made in china. His power ruins what makes unlimited and every other format fun, trainers(also a reason why eon sucks), and makes chaos gym loose it's crazyness in unlimited.

3. Unlimited should become the tourney format. Let's face it people, eon is the WORST FORMAT EVER IN THE HISTORY OF THE GAME. Like DBZ, unlimited should be the primary format, only BANNINGS, no more "buy more cards that suck" formats. That's also why i don't play pkmn that mcuh, because the new format is so illogical and boring(w/o draw power)

Now that's a rant I wanted to settle for a while. have fun with it!

[Lion_of_Darkness]

die slowking die! anyway, bcuz e-cards suck and eon is a boring, shoddy, half-***ed format, I am an avid unlimited player. And yeah, slowking should be banned. Reasons:

1. Slowking is a big, fat, not to mention pink(if you know what i mean), LOSER. He should be banned so he could eat cheetos or something, the fatty.

2. He's cheap. He's cheaper than a penny made in china. His power ruins what makes unlimited and every other format fun, trainers(also a reason why eon sucks), and makes chaos gym loose it's crazyness in unlimited.

3. Unlimited should become the tourney format. Let's face it people, eon is the WORST FORMAT EVER IN THE HISTORY OF THE GAME. Like DBZ, unlimited should be the primary format, only BANNINGS, no more "buy more cards that suck" formats. That's also why i don't play pkmn that mcuh, because the new format is so illogical and boring(w/o draw power)

Now that's a rant I wanted to settle for a while. have fun with it!

Preach it, brother! Anyway, yeah, Slowking is unfair. Modified does seem pretty boring right now, so Unlimited should be the most played format, and Slowking ruins it! It makes the game one sided. YGO is bad enough for that, so do we really need this aggrivation in Pokemon? BAN SLOWKING. Chaos Gym was fun before Slowking came into play! Now it's just a way of disruption. The word "fun" up above should be true for games with a reputation like Pokemon! Let's get rid of Slowking.

[dkates]

It would be the most powerful playable card to ever get banned.Hehe -- technically, it would also be the least powerful card to ever get banned -- no other playable card ever has been banned from Unlimited. Of course, I'm still all for doing something, be it errata, reprint, or ban. Please, add my user name (dkates) to your list.

[Am Pm]

I say give slowking a reprint. It should be played like the japanese version. It's power will only work while it's active.

[Lion_of_Darkness]

Please, add my user name (dkates) to your list.

You got it!

[dkates]

I am glad to see that people are expressing their opinions on this matter. However, I have noticed that some people, who I will not name, do not seem to be considering the viewpoints opposing their own, even when presented with arguments that are valid and well-stated. I would urge everyone to make sure you are considering both sides, so that this can remain an intelligent debate.

[djcati]

OK, just sat and read through the rest of the posts after my last...
Everyone's making valid points. Good reasons for banning, good reasons for keeping.
But look at it this way-

Even if a ban did go ahead, how on earth is it going to succeed? OK, so unlimited tourneys, no Slowking. But what about the league games, the games where kids are just playing for the fun of it?
On the off chance that they did know about the ban, why would they listen?

I just think you can't ban a card from unlimited and still call it unlimited. And it wouldn't be practical to try.

[jdb728]

OK, just sat and read through the rest of the posts after my last...
Everyone's making valid points. Good reasons for banning, good reasons for keeping.
But look at it this way-

Even if a ban did go ahead, how on earth is it going to succeed? OK, so unlimited tourneys, no Slowking. But what about the league games, the games where kids are just playing for the fun of it?
On the off chance that they did know about the ban, why would they listen?

I just think you can't ban a card from unlimited and still call it unlimited. And it wouldn't be practical to try.

I would like to point out that "___'s Pikachu"(otherwise known as "Birthday Pikachu") is banned in Unlimited, it's no real problem for it to be banned, since the League members(or at least most of 'em) will listen to, and believe the League Leader, if there's a legitimate reason for it to be banned. Of course, I would still like it if it didn't come to banning, but just erratta it, or reprint it with the proper text.

Just my opinion.

[EeveeTrainer]

Alright I've been mostly silent on issues recently and I think this would be a nice place to step back into teh heat of verbal competition.

There are several issues that have all been touched on about his royal pain in the neck. First and most painless as all are suggesting is to ban him. But there maybe something that you're all overlooking. As broken as slowking is, there's not really anything to stop each and every one of you from playing him. While Slowking is irritating, he's based on luck like alot of the 'broken' cards. He's on a flip and there are counters to him.

First and most clear is gust and kill the slowpoke before it has a chance...but most will say, "He's out too fast." And you're all right. Anyone playing him like he should be played has him out turn 2 or 3.

Another way is to have pokemon that take the place of Trainers. Lioone, Cleffa, Noctowl, Victreebell and Erika's Victrebell being some of the obvious choices.

Personally this is my take. Slowking is powerful yes. Broken...maybe but there are ways, many ways, of dealing with him. Fact is that in any format if you're not suited to deal with the deck that can beat yours you will lose. That's just simply the way it all is.

And that's really all I have to say.

-Saturn Knight

[jdb728]

Good argument, however the point stands that these are not viable counters if you're playing against a decent player with a somewhat well built deck. First and most painless as all are suggesting is to ban him. Keep in mind, we're not just trying to get him banned, we'd rather just have him errattaed to the Japanese version. While Slowking is irritating, he's based on luck like alot of the 'broken' cards. He's on a flip and there are counters to him. He is "on a flip", the problem is that when 2 or 3 of them are out, how often will someone 0 heads out of 2or3 flips on a consistant basis?
First and most clear is gust and kill the slowpoke before it has a chance...but most will say, "He's out too fast." And you're all right. Anyone playing him like he should be played has him out turn 2 or 3. The problem is that not only will they have the Slowkings out(almost every single time) by turn 2 or 3, another thing to worry about is Rare Candy, now they get to keep the Slowpokes safe in their hand(so they can't get gusted out) and then play 2 or 3 Slowpokes, along with 2 or 3 Slowkings on 'em in the same turn(other then 1st turn of the game of course).
Another way is to have pokemon that take the place of Trainers. Lioone, Cleffa, Noctowl, Victreebell and Erika's Victrebell being some of the obvious choices. The main problem with this strategy is that you use 'em once or twice(a couple more if you're really lucky) and then they easily get one hit KO's on 'em, and even if your Bellsprouts do survive long enough to get to Victreebell or Erika's Victreebell, and then you get heads on the power, the opponent just plays a switch or a Warp nrg, and then KO's it.

By the way, welcome back to the world of competative debating.

This post is IMO as ussual of course.

[TeSp]

Banning slowking will probably just make other cards bether. Like a deck like metal chansey. Ive played metal chansey for a longf time and i do not really have a problem winnong over anydeck except slowking. I know the new metal rule and it removes the metal chansey deck, but still. Why shuld they ban it now and why not for ages ago?

[Tego]

Good point, TeSp. If they ever should have banned Slowking from Unlimited, it should have been a long while ago.

Chansey has no Metals, but it still has Unown N! Yay! =P

[jdb728]

Good point, TeSp. If they ever should have banned Slowking from Unlimited, it should have been a long while ago.

Chansey has no Metals, but it still has Unown N! Yay! =P

Keep in mind that it took a very long time for them to ban Slowking from Modified. I would also like to ask people who post to not overlook the fact that we want Slowking banned only as a last resort, if erratta(to the Japanese version) is out of the question.


Thanks for reading.

[LightUmbreon]

slowking is STILL a fat dumb, cheap load. He should have some constraint tho. Card msitakes like those make the neviornment less fun.

[BJJ763]

Errata Slowking = Ban Slowking. Nobody would play it.

Mistake? Slowking was not a mistake.

[jdb728]

Errata Slowking = Ban Slowking. Nobody would play it.

Mistake? Slowking was not a mistake.

Maybe no one would play him, but at least he wouldn't ruin the format, also, Slowking is different from the Japanese version.
Something else to take into consideration is that Slowking was changed to where the opponent had to pay the cost of the trainers before the flips(example: having to discard 2 cards from your hand for Computer Search), and then it was immediately banned from Modified(seems like perhaps it was an attempt to further ruin the format that wasn't raking in the most money).

[BJJ763]

It was banned from MF because it was used in almost every deck at Worlds. The Japanese observers noted this and asked for the ban.

And no Slowking was not changed so that the player had to pay for the cost of playing the card. You are thinking of a Slowking and No Removal Gym and someone wanting to play ER or SER. CPU Search has an effect not a cost of Discarding 2 cards to search for 1. When you play ER or SER with No Removal Gym in play, you must pay it's cost. It was ruled when a Slowking is in play with a No Removal Gym, you must pay the cost to play the card first, then Slowking gets to see if you can play it (because the Slowking player does not have to flip when their opponent wants to play a Trainer).

[Ice'Cold]

No sorry dude, unlimited means you can play everything. The new company should not reprint it, but could choose to Errata it if they wish to. Alot less Muk's would be in standard if they did and alot more powerful cards could be used. I saw dont do anything about it, but I would prefer if the card was erratad.

[Magnechu]

Either give it the errata or ban it. It's just too powerful for any format. In casual play, you should be allowed to play whatever you want. In Unlimited play, Slowking should be banned. There is a big difference between those 2 formats. One is for tournaments, one is for fun. That's just my opinion. LoD, add my name to your list.

[jdb728]

No sorry dude, unlimited means you can play everything. The new company should not reprint it, but could choose to Errata it if they wish to. Alot less Muk's would be in standard if they did and alot more powerful cards could be used. I saw dont do anything about it, but I would prefer if the card was erratad.
Unlimited does mean you can play everything, as long as you consider NOT being able to play "__'s Pikachu" or "Ancient Mew" as being able to play everything :p . I do however, agree with the rest of your post(aside from the reprinting thing, I do think it would be better to just reprint it, that way you avoid a lot of confusion).

Magnechu hit the nail right on the head.

Thanks for the posts, lets keep 'em comin', turning into a pretty good debate.

Oh, and BJJ, it looks as though I may have made a mistake(even though I don't think I did :D ).

[jesschow12]

think slowking should get reprinted because since the new MF format has came out, the cards can be use are far more powerful than the old ones then why does everyone here still thinking slowking is too poewrful or broken?

[BJJ763]

If they errata Slowking because it's different than the Japanese version, they should also errata Unown D, Unown M, and Unown N as those were printed differently than the Japanese ones.

[SolarPichu]

Instead of Banning Slowking, why not make a card specifically to counter it? I can see it now...

Shellder (40 HP)
(W) Release
Discard all Slowking and Slowbro. Leave the Slowpoke there to punish your opponent. :)

[yoshi1001]

That's called swallowing the spider to catch the fly. It really doesn't work. And really, it's kinda broken-even as anti-Slowking.

[jdb728]

If they errata Slowking because it's different than the Japanese version, they should also errata Unown D, Unown M, and Unown N as those were printed differently than the Japanese ones.

I wouldn't have a problem with them making the Unowns in the USA and the Unowns in Japan the same, just the Unowns(mostly Unown D) have a good reason to protect all the Pokemon while you have it in play(although I don't think they should protect your own Pokemon from your own attacks), mainly because we have quite a few Pokemon with Weakness to Dark, but not a single Pokemon(that I know of) with resistence.

Just my opinion, Thanks for reading.
:pokeball: :psychic: :lightning

[Kyfogre22]

add me too LoD!

[Turbo Blastoise]

Why do they call it "unlimited"? Because it's unlimited cards, combos, strategies, unlimited deck ideas. That's what makes it unique from modified. Unlimited doesn't = modified and I feel that with banning cards, you make unlimited just another version of modified. Modified rotates cards out to make way for newer cards to be in the spotlight. When you ban cards from unlimited, that shifts the "balance of power" of other cards and then you have to ban other cards which tips the balance some more and rinse and repeat. Personally, I like to play with my whole collection cause I like the challenge of dealing with power cards and the like. And also who's to say that other cards like Sneasel, Prof. Oak and others aren't overpowered or how about Comp. Search? I heard that when the game first came out in Japan they banned Comp. Search why? Because you could get any card that you wanted out of your deck. Now that's BROKEN!!!!

What I think would be a better solution to the problem is to just leave unlimited alone and have a new format. Something like Magic's extended format. Since unlimited and modified are almost (seemingly like) 2 completely different games, we need something to bridge the gap. Having something like extended would give it the flexiblity of modified while giving us the card base to draw from similar to unlimited. Instead of having 2 block sets in Modified (like now with the E-sets and RS/SS), we could extend it to 3. Plus, power cards could be banned(if deemed necessary), reprinted, etc while leaving unlimited the way it should be. I think a 3rd format has been necessary for a long time and I think this is the right time for it. Leave Unlimited alone and let's push for EXTENDED!!!

[jdb728]

Why do they call it "unlimited"? Because it's unlimited cards, combos, strategies, unlimited deck ideas. That's what makes it unique from modified. Unlimited doesn't = modified and I feel that with banning cards, you make unlimited just another version of modified. Modified rotates cards out to make way for newer cards to be in the spotlight. When you ban cards from unlimited, that shifts the "balance of power" of other cards and then you have to ban other cards which tips the balance some more and rinse and repeat. Personally, I like to play with my whole collection cause I like the challenge of dealing with power cards and the like. And also who's to say that other cards like Sneasel, Prof. Oak and others aren't overpowered or how about Comp. Search? I heard that when the game first came out in Japan they banned Comp. Search why? Because you could get any card that you wanted out of your deck. Now that's BROKEN!!!!

Is no one paying any attention to the FACT that we just want Slwoking banned, IF and only IF ERRATTAING/REPRINTING it to make it the same as the Japanese version is not an option?

I want cards banned from Unlimited as little as anyone else.

I do agree however that an "EXTENDED" format would be a nice format(in theory of course).

We've tried Unlimited with NO Slowking(Genisis), NO Tyrouge :p (Discovery), and a MAX of 2 Super Energy Removals(not including Super Energy Removal 2 of course), and I must say, it's probably the most balanced format that I've ever played, and we haven't really had any complaints, everyone seems to like who's played it.

Thanks for reading.

[Turbo Blastoise]

I don't understand why Slowking is such a problem for people to play against. When I have trouble against a particular deck type, I tech it. Le'ts see Slowking is a Psychic-type weak against Psychic attacks. Hummm. . . Well, you could throw in some strong Psychic BBP's (Promo Mewtwo, or Mewtwo ex would be great) or some Dark-types since most Slowking decks (or at least the ones I've seen) are Mono Psychic. I've found that NG Murkrow (with Mean Look) works really well especially if they run a lot of babies. So see, those are just some examples and there are many more; all you have to do is use your imagination!! Every card has a potential weakness to exploit!

[jdb728]

I don't understand why Slowking is such a problem for people to play against. When I have trouble against a particular deck type, I tech it. Le'ts see Slowking is a Psychic-type weak against Psychic attacks. Hummm. . . Well, you could throw in some strong Psychic BBP's (Promo Mewtwo, or Mewtwo ex would be great) or some Dark-types since most Slowking decks (or at least the ones I've seen) are Mono Psychic. I've found that NG Murkrow (with Mean Look) works really well especially if they run a lot of babies. So see, those are just some examples and there are many more; all you have to do is use your imagination!! Every card has a potential weakness to exploit!
Problem is that Slowking is most commonly used with Sneasel/Steelix, good luck KOing the Sneasel with MP Mewtwo.
PLEASE don't even go into the thing about "Just GOW the Slowking active, or knock out the Slowpokes before they can get the Slowkings out".
I think we all know that with Rare Candy, the Slowpokes'll be most commonly played the same turn they get a Slowking on it, and if by some small chance of luck going extremely in your favor(and they get like 3 tails ina row for Mind Games), and you do get the Slowking acive to Mean Look it(or something of the like), they just play 1 swith, Double Gust, Warp Point(I could drag the list on for a while), and then the Slowking's back safe on the bench, protected by it's own Mind Games, not to mention the Mind Games of 2-3 other Slowkings(on average).

Thanks for reading, This post has been IMO of course :cool: .
Thanks for keepin' this a civilized discussion. ;)

[Tyranitar666]

You cannot ban a card from unlimited...that would involve it becoming a format, and thus not unlimited. Unless Nintendo wanted to make a 2nd format besides MF, no card should ever be banned. And if they did make another format, it would be more than " Ban Slowking ". Yes, its too good, but no bannings in Unlimited.

Unlimited is defined by the fact that it is all cards allowed. HBDay Pika and Ancient Mew due to inability to be played ( different backing and no way to tell if it is someones birthday ) and beyond them anything goes. Unlimited is not a format, its a lack of one. By altering what cards are allowed, you are creating a new format, and Unlimited would still exist. You would simply have Unlimited, Every card with Slowking banned, and the current MF.

[liminy0]

Banning Slowking from unlimited like Happy Birthday Pikachu is a good idea. Slowing is a very powerful card. I agree it is overpowerful (like the Eyptian God Cards), and it disturbs the order and balance; therefore should not be turnement legal.

[League Leader Terry]

My god, Slowking isn't on the same level as the God cards in Yu-Gi-Oh. Slowking only hurts you if you play Trainermon, which is something that never caught on with my old League before it shut down, so Slowking saw very little play.

[jdb728]

You cannot ban a card from unlimited...that would involve it becoming a format, and thus not unlimited. Unless Nintendo wanted to make a 2nd format besides MF, no card should ever be banned. And if they did make another format, it would be more than " Ban Slowking ". Yes, its too good, but no bannings in Unlimited.

Unlimited is defined by the fact that it is all cards allowed. HBDay Pika and Ancient Mew due to inability to be played ( different backing and no way to tell if it is someones birthday ) and beyond them anything goes. Unlimited is not a format, its a lack of one. By altering what cards are allowed, you are creating a new format, and Unlimited would still exist. You would simply have Unlimited, Every card with Slowking banned, and the current MF.

Could people please stop turning this into "you want Slowking banned", when in accuallity, we don't want it banned as much as just changed to match the Japanese version. It is possible to determine if it's really their Bday, it's just "too much of a hastle".

My god, Slowking isn't on the same level as the God cards in Yu-Gi-Oh. Slowking only hurts you if you play Trainermon, which is something that never caught on with my old League before it shut down, so Slowking saw very little play.

The problem is NOT that it shuts down Trainermon, but rather that it does NOTHING more then keep ONE player from playing trainers, meanwhile the one using Slowking is free to play all the Trainermon they could possibly want. If you want something to counter Trainermon, then Chaos Gym and Dark VilePlume would be great for it, unless of course you think it's fair that One person can't do anything aside from playing Pokemon and energies while the other gets to play Trainermon, just because of one insanely overpowered card that was changed from it's original version.

[PokePop]

It is possible to determine if it's really their Bday, it's just "too much of a hastle".

I've said it before and I'll say it again (even if no one listens...): HB Pika is not banned because you can't tell if it's someone's birthday. Of course you could.
It's banned because if is a card that is not "available" equally to all players.
If it is your birthday, you have an overpowers 80-damage-for-two-energy card available to you while your opponent does not have the opportunity to play it for any more than 30 damage.

[Michel]

ok, I haven't read all the posts so I just give my answer to the first one.

IMO, Slowking must not be banned.
There are different ways to counter it, if you think it will be played, just tech it.
If you think it's too flippy ban the babies first ;)
No luck with Slowking ? Never flipped 3 tails with 3 Slowking on your bench ?
No strategy ? Slowking decks are built with or around Slowking and to make Slowking our as quick as possible. When you play Slowking, you also have to tech the eventual counters like Igglybuff, Magby, ...
No skill ? Ever played it ? ;) Do you really believe that you put Slowking in your deck and you're sure to win ?

Nobody has talked about Slowking until Worlds 2002. Don't forget that the players who made top 8 with Slowking were excellent players, with or without Slowking.
Feraligatr has won a lot of main events too. Why not ban it ?

I think that having very good cards in a format is challenging. You have to think what you could do if your opponent plays it when you build your deck, when you're playing, ...

If you ban Slowking, you'll see a lot of Sneasel decks with a lot of trainers, or a lot of ER/SER/Recycle energy decks and a lot of babies decks. Flip for Sneasel, flip for the babies and the game is more a question of luck than ever.
If you don't see strategy in Slowking, where's the strategy in Sneasel or in a deck full of babies ? ;)

[Mew35]

First

I come from Holland and most of the unklimeted Tournaments there are Slowking and Sneasel are banned allready

Then I Love to play Slowking

There are sevaral ways to counter Slowking

Muk
I always have to play against Muk and when I do I always Loose because I don´t play with psy energy´s

and they kill my Zapdosses with the Clefable
So Muk Clefable is a good countewr deck against King

And then sometimes when Slowkings is allowed we rule him like the japanese do
So no one plays Slowking that way and we see other decks

So my opinnion is
DON´T BANN SLOWKING

Bann Clefable she does everything for one nrg

[meganium45]

Ladys and Gentlemen, boys and girls, let's review the unlimited format for a moment.....

In this format you have one of three choices with which to play - Outright Attack, Denial, or Counter strike.

Outright Attack utilitzes cards such as Clefable and Sneasel to do the dirty work. Big, diverse hitter, cheap retreats, and easy to get out.

Denial, whether with Slowking, Vileplume, or Trapper combos works in this envio as well. Denial is almost always comboed with a big hitter.

Counter Strike, utilizes Clefable, denial, Ditto to take care of a lot of problems in a short period of time.

Since 2001 Slowking has been a big problem in the envio. I am proud to say I was one of the first Sneasel/Slowking players, and winning tourneys 11 weeks in a row, I knew how to counter-game myself.

There are only three feasable decks in unlimited right now. Yes 3.

Clefable/Sneasel
Clefable/Slowking
Sneasel/Slowking

Anything else is rogue.

I am currently working on a nifty Aerodactyl EX deck for unlimited, but guess who it looks like the best partner for it is???? Slowking. Now with Psychic Cube, Slowking has become even a bigger beast.

My suggestion is that we not ban Slowking, not ban Sneasel, and not Ban Clefable. We did not ban Riptide Gatr in Rocket-On, there are just some cards that are better than others!

If you ban Slowking, you have to look at banning other equally broken cards, such as Lass and Super Energy Removal.

There are counters to Slowking, such as Slowking, Brock's Mankey, Igglybuff (ND). You just have to play the counters.

How many decks that were not Grass played Caterpie back in the Rocket-on days trying to take out an early Totodile? A TON! Why? It was splashable, as is Brock's Mankey, Igglybuff, and quite frankly Slowking.

Because of the inability of a Slowking suicide anymore (playing a dark on Slowking to kill it off, get it out of the active spot in mirror matches), Murkrow/King may end up being a very powerful combination.

Don't Ban, it just makes the game less unlimited. Do what all the great players do, play modified (dodges items hurled) or play Block - new format idea where the blocks are Base-Fossil-Jungle, Rocket-Gym Challenge, Neo 1-4, Expedition - Skyridge with Legendary Collection, and R/S on! Blocks are a great format for draft, and a great format for "modified unlimited"

my four cents

M45

[jdb728]

I've said it before and I'll say it again (even if no one listens...): HB Pika is not banned because you can't tell if it's someone's birthday. Of course you could.
It's banned because if is a card that is not "available" equally to all players.
If it is your birthday, you have an overpowers 80-damage-for-two-energy card available to you while your opponent does not have the opportunity to play it for any more than 30 damage.
Thanks for pointing that out, I was just trying to make a point about how Bday Pika wasn't banned "because it's impossible to tell whether or not it's really the players Bday", but thanks for correcting me anyway.

Nobody has talked about Slowking until Worlds 2002. Don't forget that the players who made top 8 with Slowking were excellent players, with or without Slowking.
Ok, #1. Slowking recieved a little more attention after Worlds 2002, because that's where it proved just how "broken" it is. #2. If they won because they were "excellent players, with or without Slowking", why was it that a DONPHAN! won 1st in the 10-? I'll tell ya why, because Slowking is just that "BROKEN" that it turned DONPHAN! into a Worlds Champion deck.

There are counters to Slowking, such as Slowking, Brock's Mankey, Igglybuff (ND). You just have to play the counters.
Doesn't it kinda prove the point, when the first(and best, really the only viable) counter that comes to mind is the SAME card that you're trying to counter?
I'll say it again, SLOWKING MADE DONPHAN A WORLD CHAMPION DECK!, I think that about somes it up to prove how BROKEN it is.

This post is IMO of course.


Thanks again for keeping this a good debate.

[Timmy Two Tone]

Doesn't it kinda prove the point, when the first(and best, really the only viable) counter that comes to mind is the SAME card that you're trying to counter?
I'll say it again, SLOWKING MADE DONPHAN A WORLD CHAMPION DECK!, I think that about somes it up to prove how BROKEN it is.



Slowking did help make the Donphan a viable deck, but babies with focus bands also helped, Rapid spin send out the baby with the band. Free retreat the baby send up Donphan and do it all over again. You have to remember that all the players where playing Slowking (This was the worlds). So it was also a matter of flippymon...

As for me I do not like slowking, but there are legitimate counters to it so if it is erratad great, If it is not errated then keep it. Do not ban it.

[dkates]

I've seen a lot of people posting to say, "Don't like Slowking? Play Modified." As I have said before on this thread, that SHOULD NOT be the only way to escape Slowking, which is WHY I BROUGHT UP THE ISSUE in the first place.
Errata Slowking, and it becomes tame enough that we can worry about metagaming against the other power cards, without any risk of starting a long line of bans. We've had cards errata'd before, and Slowking definitely is capable of being errata'd (even if it has been played as is for almost two years now), as it was translated incorrectly for whatever reason.
Ban Slowking (which I have repeatedly said should ONLY happen if an errata isn't an option), and the game goes on without it. Players have adjusted to change before, we can do it again.
It has been suggested that another format be created, which would be something between Unlimited and Modified. This idea I like for many reasons, many of which are not related to this issue, although this issue is one of them. Still, this does not mean something else cannot also be done.
Some people have said banning Slowking would lead to other bans. Even if the ban does happen, it does not have to be the first of a line of bans. Banning a card from any format, especially Unlimited, must be the result of a careful decision, agreed to by at least the majority of players, that the card is broken beyond repair and significantly reduces the fun value of the game. I have not heard this said about any of the other power cards in the format.
Still, banning cards is not something to be done lightly. A card can be overpowered and not deserve a ban, as long as it requires some strategy in its use and can be countered. Sneasel, Lass, SER, and the other power cards of the format all meet these criteria, IMO. Sneasel requires a player to account for the cost of its attack, its low HP, and making the attack as effective as possible. While these are not difficult things to do, a Sneasel deck that does not account for these things will lose. Even a well-constructed Sneasel deck will lose sometimes. SER can be countered, too. Ecogym is one example of a good counter to SER. Some good decks can be made for which SER is not an issue. Lass has the important drawback that it not only lets your opponent know what you can do, but also disrupts your own hand.
Some people have said that countering Slowking is not only possible, but easy enough that it's not that big a threat. Yes, Slowking can be countered. Yes, some of these counters are very splashable. But these counters are themselves extremely easy to counter. Brock's Mankey has such low HP that it is easily OHKO'd, and its strategy is destroyed with a simple Switch. Igglybuff is easily Gusted up and killed by any halfway decent attacker. All the Slowking player needs is a lucky flip or two. Pichu is too slow to be much of a worry to a Slowking player, who has a minimum of 4 turns to protect his Slowkings. Meanwhile, Pichu itself, like Igglybuff is easily taken out with a lucky flip or two. Muk is not powerful enough on the attack to hold its own, and its high Retreat Cost means you'd better have a Switch handy, or it's going down. Also, you can't forget that you have to build your own deck without any other helpful Pokemon Powers if you're using Muk. Plus, you run the risk of your Grimers getting eaten before they can even evolve.
So, there you have it. Please make sure that all posts show careful consideration of BOTH sides of the issue, and try not to just repeat what's already been said. Also, please make sure to consider the fact that despite this thread's title, I am more in favor of an errata than a ban. I have seen many posts that have obviously overlooked this.

[Tyranitar666]

First off, you people are idiots saying it made Donphan good...OBVIOUSLY. Donphan had an overabundance of synergy with Slowking. So did Dark Gatr. Some cards click for combos. Your trying to say that one card is TOO good just because it made another card viable...no. Its viable because a new combo arrived. Its just like Entei Magcargo. No one ran Magcargo before Entei. " OH GOD! ENTEIS SO BROKEN! IT MADE A CRAPPY CARD SO GOOD! " Oh no! The Trapper combo is INSANE! IOR must be broken as it turned crappy cards like RSA and TRT into being viable ! BAN IOR! BAN IOR!

You have to understand that the donphan issue is an issue of strong synergy and a combo. You can't take an equally bad card, or even one slightly better than it, toss it in Slowking, and win. Why not toss in an Ursaring? Its still going to suck. Toss in Vaporeon. Yep, still bad. Toss in NEO 3 Suicune ( Holo , with the ruling as it was at the time ) OH WAIT! SYNERGY! IT CLICKS! Therefore it works. It has nothing to do with the fact that the card in question makes any card good as much as it is that some weaker cards comboed with it well.

Also, the sole reason it did well at Worlds is because it recieved no internet attention. Seeing how at the time I followed the message boards religiously, I know what was and wasnt posted. Decks unprepared did not do well against it. Slowking was used to slow down threats like Kingdra, who needed Pokemon Center to win. It also prevented Kabulix from getting access to healing, or the fossils, and also made it hard for them to attach to Steelix metals without draw. Slowking was a smart metagaming choice, plan and simple. No one had used slowking at the prof championship yet, and no one mentioned that Slowking was so good. Therefore many decks were caught off guard. This was a VERY rare occurance, as after Worlds, people ran a bit of TecH. Slowking became HORRIBLE in MMF. Where I played, not a single Slowking deck was played. Also note, one Kingdra deck ( at least ) t8ed at Worlds...it ran Igglybuff, 2 I believe, at the last second upon seeing so many Slowkings. Yes, 2 cards made what is a near impossible match into a very easy one.

So yes, while Slowking is very strong and very effective, it requires a large portion of your deck being focused around it to get it going effectively, thus making your energy count low. That means that only certain attackers can fit into the deck. They also must almost always be basics, except in Steelix and Scizors case, because a 4-4 Slowking line is very demanding poke-slot wise. Also, a high trainer count is needed for consistancy at swarming with stage 1s, so while yes, Slowking is VERY good, it cannot effectively be thrown with any card in the least. Slowking, realistically, is a single archetype. There are a very finite number of combonations that work with it. Sneasel, Murkrow or Metal. Those are the three real ways to go with it. Its no more dominant than Gatr was in MF, or Gatr Sect, Entei Cargo and Scizor Furret Muk were in MMF. Those were the decks to beat. Its not like you could toss Gatr and Sects into any deck and win. While some people exclaim you can with Slowking, your wrong. Slowking, while good, can be fragile. There are many counters, and almost everyone runs them. While REALISTICALLY you CAN run 4-4 slowking in any deck, the deck would lose to most non Slowking decks , unless the Slowking deck runs one of the three proven effective combonations.

Yes, alot of weaker decks will lose to Slowking unless they run counters...so we ban slowking..fair enough...alot of weaker decks will still lose to ANYTHING. The top decks are top decks because they are BETTER. Merely look at the premise behind TCGs. You will ALWAYS have top decks, and most decks cannot compete vs them. The best you can do is rotate cards out, and OOPS! Your back to complaining about some new threat. It happened with Prop 15/3c. " OH NO! TRAINER MON! BAD! ( btw, Trainermon is the dumbest term I have EVER seen in my life ) " and what happened? OOPS! HITMONCHAN ZAPPY FABLE! BOO! BAD! BAN THEM! Format dead. Than MF. OOPS. Gatr. NEXT FORMAT! OOPS! Gatr Sect Cargo and SFM. NEXT FORMAT! Eon...looking like its Blaziken, Azumarril, Sceptile and Gardevoir EX so far, too early to tell, give it a few months. Every time something gets " Fixed " Something else pops up. Its blanant facts people. You cannot ignore them. In order to compete with the best decks, you run a deck that has a chance against it. If this means tossing in a few cards like Igglybuff, go for it! ITS NO BIG DEAL. If you merely want to run your Venusaurs and Aggrons, than play for fun. NO GAME IN TCG HISTORY ALLOWS AN EVEN PLAYING FIELD FOR ALL DECKS. You cannot take any deck you want into a tournement and stand a chance against the best decks. No matter what you do, some cards will always dominate the field. Ban Slowking...all decks run 4/4 ERs now. There ya go. Now any deck with more than 2 energy cost cant compete. Ban ER? OOPS! Sneasel cant lose, and Metals ridiculous. Ban Sneasel? Ok, Metal cant lose! Watch out for Scizor! You cannot ban an entire Type either...so Metal will be insane...usually with Water back up just in case. I can go ON AND ON about how broken the game will get no matter what you ban...banning does not work. The Pokemon online community just cannot seem to understand this though. I do not know if it is the fact that the game is advertised as more of a fun game and alot of the players play it for that or what, but when your playing competitively, one deck is always better. Otherwise its merely " I flipped better/drew better hands ". The idea behind a CUSTOMIZABLE card game is that you make the BEST deck. Yes, BEST, as in, you know, better than others? So some decks eventually are the better decks...its the basis behind the game genre. Otherwise its all 50-50. Who would play that? Seriously...yes...while we all hate the " Cheesy " decks, when you think about it...they are more a symbol of beauty, or perfection, than of lack of skill. Whoever made those decks took the game and made the best decks possible. While yes, it takes skill to "Play " the game, deck building, and metagaming is much more of an art if you ask me. Before we scream " BAN SOMETHING! CHANGE ITS WORDING! BLA BLA BAL! " realize that no game has ever came close to achieving " Balance". Yes, Slowking is too strong....remove Slowking and we find a new " TOO STRONG " card. And yes, I DO mean to the same level of power that Slowking currently has. Deal with it.

[Canadian Bacon]

personally, i dont know or care what you are talking about. i dont play the card game anymore. i just answered because it popped up in my private messages.

[Jeremy Badeaux]

First off, you people are idiots saying it made Donphan good...OBVIOUSLY. Donphan had an overabundance of synergy with Slowking. So did Dark Gatr. Some cards click for combos. Your trying to say that one card is TOO good just because it made another card viable...no. Its viable because a new combo arrived. Its just like Entei Magcargo. No one ran Magcargo before Entei. " OH GOD! ENTEIS SO BROKEN! IT MADE A CRAPPY CARD SO GOOD! " Oh no! The Trapper combo is INSANE! IOR must be broken as it turned crappy cards like RSA and TRT into being viable ! BAN IOR! BAN IOR!
1. I always thought bashing wasn't allowed
2.Where is the "synergy" donphan had with a bench hog(3 Slowkings on the bench, you're charging up a second donphan, that leaves you one whole spot on the bench for "focus banded babies")?
3.Entei came out in the same set, so of course nobody used magcargo before entei. get your facts straight
4. RSA and Trap never sucked or anything(solid disruption and risky large-scale disruption, does not = SUCK).

Ban Slowking...all decks run 4/4 ERs now. There ya go. Now any deck with more than 2 energy cost cant compete. Ban ER? OOPS! Sneasel cant lose, and Metals ridiculous. Ban Sneasel? Ok, Metal cant lose! Watch out for Scizor! You cannot ban an entire Type either...so Metal will be insane...usually with Water back up just in case. I can go ON AND ON about how broken the game will get no matter what you ban...banning does not work. The Pokemon online community just cannot seem to understand this though.

1.The person playing slowking has a block against ER, I'm pretty sure sneasel can still be KO'd.
2."Metals ridiculous", slowking + steelix is somewhat popular for the reason you just said(thanks for helping prove our points :D ).

Seriously...yes...while we all hate the " Cheesy " decks, when you think about it...they are more a symbol of beauty, or perfection, than of lack of skill. Whoever made those decks took the game and made the best decks possible.

I give Props to whoever thought up a slowking deck in the first place, but that doesn't mean I should give props to every wanna be who ever played slowking(even though slowkings power has always been as obvious as the need for energy in decks).

Three quick facts:
1.only about half of the Worlds decks ran Slowking.
2.Even Slowking + L.Lanturn did okay at worlds, where is the synergy there?
3.calling slowking metagame is equivalent to calling comp search "okay"(badly off target).

If nobody plays slowking at your league, that probably just means that they either have:
1. No slowkings
2. They prefer to play with dignity(wich is seeming like a rarer thing by the minute).

[PokePop]

Yes, Tyranitar. No need to resort to calling names when the rest of your post speaks so eloquently.

And I don't know where the "all" part of that came from.

I certainly wouldn't dismiss a championship deck as easily as some people do.

Anyway, refute the words, not the person writing them. OK?

[Tyranitar666]

Jeremy- First off all, I do not think that Donphan Slowking is a good deck in the least. I think it sucks, and that the reason it won is because Mindy was a very good player for the 10- age division, and hands down, skill playing matters 100 fold in the 10- division compared to the older divisions where most players are able to play at a certain level. Also, while yes, the 10- arent HORRIBLE, alot of them have issues dealing with and formulating a strategy to deal with a hit and run style of attack. While yes, alot of them are great players, a large majority cannot formulate strategies out of a trainer lock plus hit and run. I do think alot of why the deck won is due to the player, and not that Donphan Slowking was even any good. Take Donphan Slowking and put it up against anyone who knows how to fight Donphan Slowking well and it does infinitely worse.

As for where I play being without slowkings or with "dignity " that is utter ********. We have many of the best players in this game at our store. Ever hear of Gymbo, Rockets Sandshrew, Dark Psyduck ( Brian Six ) Jedi Drew, Tom Dolezal, or *Misty* at all? Gymbo is definitely one of the leading deck builders and a TMP champion this year. Rockets Sandshrew was a very respected player and t8ed at both the CSC and Prof Championship 2002. Dark Psyduck is a TMP Champion and won the CSC. Jedi Drew got 2nd at the ECSC. Tom got 2nd at the CSC and the Columbus GC, and was ranked in the top DCI rankings for years while playing every week. Yes, he had an over 2150 ranking WHILE playing weekly. Notice how everyone else who is high ranked stays inactive? Thought so. Id also like to point out that ALL of these players had Slowkings, as well as any other card, and they were willing to use whatever it takes to win. So yes, neither of your ideas for why they weren't used are accurate...as Im sorry, Slowking just sucked in MMF. Heck, Ill make everyone a deal. Make a Slowking deck for MMF. Ill play you on Apprentice.


Next off, you run a deck with RSA and no IOR. Its horrible. Trust me. Id never be caught dead doing so. Even more so with TRT. Without the combos they are worthless, run Lass instead. Don't even start with me on this one, its that blatant. As for Entei and Magcargo coming out in the same set....OBVIOUSLY they did. Im not a retard. Enteis first combo was not with Magcargo either, merely Blaines RK9. You tell me anyone would HONESTLY run Magcargo without Entei though...for a long time people ran Entei RK9, and neglected Cargo as crap, until they replaced him in the list. So please do not tell me to " Get My Facts Straight " about a comment I made to emphasize that Cargo is not worth playing in MF unless with Entei...well, Typhlosion as well, but again, its a synergy issue. Without those cards to " Break " it, it could not stand against Crobat and Gatr decks. So instead of telling me I am stupid for how a comment sounds in the literal term, due to the cards being in the same set, why not look to what the IDEA behind the comment is...you know, that thing in it that I mean to get accross...aka the point of it? So yeah. Stop being so literal and try to interept things for what they are.

As for bashing being allowed...I don't call that bashing. I call that stating the obvious in an attempt to stop one of the most ludicrious discussions I have seen on a board in a long time. Banning a card in UNLIMITED makes it no longer a format. Its that simple. You cannot ban anything and still call it Unlimited. You would need to make a 3rd format, as I have said. Anyone can always play "anything goes", thus Unlimited, and therefore the format will always exist. You cannot simply ELIMINATE playing the game without any "house rules " basically. ( House rules applying to formats...aka, the basic game played by people who have no access to tournement rules online...) You simply cannot prohibit anyone from playing the game unrestricted.

I can understand debating banning a card in a format...thats perfectly fine. Formats are made in order to attempt to level the playing field somewhat. Debate that all you want. But please, Unlimited cannot be changed to another format and still be Unlimited.

Also...one last little invitation to old Jeremy there. Please IM me at Jvcbt sometime. I have a few words to say to you that I really cannot say on these boards if your willing to take them and have a bit of a discussion. Thank you.

[PokePop]

I could be wrong, but I don't think Jeremy was neccessarialy aiming that comment about the calibre of players at your league at you.
He was replying to a number of posts in that post.

[Sensei]

[Clears throat]

Lets continue the discussion gentlemen...It was going pretty good.Knock off the "idiot" crap and the starring of improper words or I`ll have no choice to...I also don`t want to lock this but if it persists...

`Sensei

[jdb728]

Jeremy- First off all, I do not think that Donphan Slowking is a good deck in the least. I think it sucks, and that the reason it won is because Mindy was a very good player for the 10- age division, and hands down, skill playing matters 100 fold in the 10- division compared to the older divisions where most players are able to play at a certain level. Also, while yes, the 10- arent HORRIBLE, alot of them have issues dealing with and formulating a strategy to deal with a hit and run style of attack. While yes, alot of them are great players, a large majority cannot formulate strategies out of a trainer lock plus hit and run. I do think alot of why the deck won is due to the player, and not that Donphan Slowking was even any good. Take Donphan Slowking and put it up against anyone who knows how to fight Donphan Slowking well and it does infinitely worse.
I don't think the deck won purely because of the player, if Mindy was soooo great, then why did she have to ripoff someone elses deck idea(And yes, Mindy admitted to ripping off the deck)?
You gonna tell us that Jason Klaczynski is a great player because he did great in some big tourney's(T8 at ECSTS) because he copied other peoples decks(No offense to JK, just provin' a point ;) )?

As for where I play being without slowkings or with "dignity " that is utter ********. We have many of the best players in this game at our store. Ever hear of Gymbo, Rockets Sandshrew, Dark Psyduck ( Brian Six ) Jedi Drew, Tom Dolezal, or *Misty* at all? Gymbo is definitely one of the leading deck builders and a TMP champion this year. Rockets Sandshrew was a very respected player and t8ed at both the CSC and Prof Championship 2002. Dark Psyduck is a TMP Champion and won the CSC. Jedi Drew got 2nd at the ECSC. Tom got 2nd at the CSC and the Columbus GC, and was ranked in the top DCI rankings for years while playing every week. Yes, he had an over 2150 ranking WHILE playing weekly. Notice how everyone else who is high ranked stays inactive? Thought so. Id also like to point out that ALL of these players had Slowkings, as well as any other card, and they were willing to use whatever it takes to win. So yes, neither of your ideas for why they weren't used are accurate...as Im sorry, Slowking just sucked in MMF. Heck, Ill make everyone a deal. Make a Slowking deck for MMF. Ill play you on Apprentice.
"as Im sorry, Slowking just sucked in MMF.", ok, could you please explain to us why Worlds was DOMINATED by Slowking decks then :p ?

Next off, you run a deck with RSA and no IOR. Its horrible. Trust me. Id never be caught dead doing so. Even more so with TRT. Without the combos they are worthless, run Lass instead. Don't even start with me on this one, its that blatant. As for Entei and Magcargo coming out in the same set....OBVIOUSLY they did. Im not a retard. Enteis first combo was not with Magcargo either, merely Blaines RK9. You tell me anyone would HONESTLY run Magcargo without Entei though...for a long time people ran Entei RK9, and neglected Cargo as crap, until they replaced him in the list. So please do not tell me to " Get My Facts Straight " about a comment I made to emphasize that Cargo is not worth playing in MF unless with Entei...well, Typhlosion as well, but again, its a synergy issue. Without those cards to " Break " it, it could not stand against Crobat and Gatr decks. So instead of telling me I am stupid for how a comment sounds in the literal term, due to the cards being in the same set, why not look to what the IDEA behind the comment is...you know, that thing in it that I mean to get accross...aka the point of it? So yeah. Stop being so literal and try to interept things for what they are.
#1. Nobody saying that IOR, RSA, or TRT is great on it's own, but combined, they do make a pretty awesome combo. #2. Last I checked, you are the one who stated "No one ran Magcargo before Entei.", no one's saying(At least not that I've seen) that Magcargo was the first card comboed with Entei. #3. I don't recall anyone calling you "stupid", as I remember, you're the one who said "First off, you people are idiots saying it made Donphan good...OBVIOUSLY.", it seems to me that you were calling other people "idiots", not that anyone called you "stupid". #4. "So yeah. Stop being so literal and try to interept things for what they are", I may be wrong, but are asking us, not to go by what you wrote, but rather take guesses at what we think you mean :D ?

As for bashing being allowed...I don't call that bashing. I call that stating the obvious in an attempt to stop one of the most ludicrious discussions I have seen on a board in a long time. Banning a card in UNLIMITED makes it no longer a format. Its that simple. You cannot ban anything and still call it Unlimited. You would need to make a 3rd format, as I have said. Anyone can always play "anything goes", thus Unlimited, and therefore the format will always exist. You cannot simply ELIMINATE playing the game without any "house rules " basically. ( House rules applying to formats...aka, the basic game played by people who have no access to tournement rules online...) You simply cannot prohibit anyone from playing the game unrestricted.
#1. "I call that stating the obvious in an attempt to stop one of the most ludicrious discussions I have seen on a board in a long time.", Again, I might be wrong, but wouldn't it be more effective to give an accually valid reason for your opinion, instead of calling other people "idiots"?
#2. "Banning a card in UNLIMITED makes it no longer a format. Its that simple. You cannot ban anything and still call it Unlimited.", well then, I guess that means there's no such thing as an "Unlimited" according to that logic, since "Ancient Mew", and "Bday Pikachu" are both BANNED in Unlimited. Yes, I know "Ancient Mew" was banned because of no English translation version of it.
#3. "You would need to make a 3rd format, as I have said.", Aren't "Sealed" and "Draft" formats? If so, would that not mean that a new format would be the 5th? :p

This post was IMO of course, no offense was meant by any of the contents of this post.
Thanks for reading.

[Mr. Grass]

I never saw this post before but my comments were solicited, so I'll throw in what I think. But I want to make the few things that affect my point of view clear.

First of all, I've never built a deck that had Slowking in it. I designed one once, but by the time I got close to having all the cards for it Slowking was banned.
Second, the biggest tournament I've competed in were STS qualifiers. I've judged in larger events, but the largest event I've competed in was Unlimited when I believe only Neo Genesis was out. I placed second with my Koga's Beedrill/Muk/Dark Muk/ Dark Vileplume deck (only lost in the finals because ALL my stage 2's were in my prizes).

All that being said, I don't really see how banning Slowking would benefit the Unlimited environment. Most high stakes games of Unlimited that I've seen were games of Trainermon. Either whoever Lass/Eeeeeeeked won, or whoever happened to get their first pokemon powered up with a hand full of ER/SER won. Slowking, in my opinion, adds to Unlimited and makes it a richer environment. Instead of battling out with Trainers players have to keep in mind that their pokemon need to contribute too.
Being an active player, I've played against many Slowking decks and though they challanged me I did not find Slowking to be all powerful. Adapting your playing style can make Slowking into a much minor threat. And don't complain about having to build your deck around what other players might play. That's what deck building is all about, making a deck that you think will perform will in the environment where it will be played (or just having fun like my Exeggutor 36 coin flip deck).
I think this is just a case of one card being singled out because it vastly changed the state of the format. A lot of people cried out for the banning of Feraligatr in modified because it was too strong, but once people learned to deal with it it wasn't so bad. There was no perfect way to counter the deck, but no deck really does have a perfect counter to it. The same thing applies to Slowking. Are there counters? Yes. Are the perfect? Of course not, no card has a perfect counter (unless you count Seviper and Zangoose).

So I say keep Slowking and learn to play your game with it. Play around with how much trainer support you really need. Take a look at some of the Nintendo cards. A lot of the new pokemon have attacks and pokemon powers that are replacing trainers. Just keep your mind open to all the options before Limiting Unlimited.

[Sensei]

Hmm.....I think it`s best to just lock this....some of the replies are still centered on things that will only keep the "flaming" going(response about "idiots",etc).

Call this a final warning to anyone and everyone(you too JDB).Knock this off right now or...you know the deal.

Having a discussion and offering different point of views is definately ok,but mudslinging and name calling is not going to be tolerated.

You are welcome to start a new thread,but I better not see any of this spill over to it if you do.

`Sensei