Wizards files lawsuit against Pokemon USA/TPC/Nintendo [Archive]

GymLeaderPhil

10/11/2003, 04:37 PM

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/business/143467_pokemon11.html

Saturday, October 11, 2003

It's Wizards vs. Pokemon as ex-partners square off

By JOHN COOK
SEATTLE POST-INTELLIGENCER REPORTER

The Pokemon trading card game has entertained more than 30 million children worldwide.

But now the companies that helped turn the game into a billion-dollar sensation are fighting like two kids in a sandbox.

Renton-based Wizards of the Coast, which until last month was the exclusive manufacturer, distributor and marketer of the cards in North America, Europe and the Middle East, filed a lawsuit last week against Nintendo of America, The Pokemon Co., Pokemon USA and two former executives.

Filed in U.S. District Court in Seattle, the suit alleges patent infringement, breach of contract, misappropriation of trade secrets, tortuous interference with a business relationship, unjust enrichment and other claims.

"Wizards of the Coast has built tremendous brand equity over the years with our popular proprietary trading card games, and aggressively seeks to protect its valuable intellectual property and trade secrets," the company said in a statement.

Wizards of the Coast spokeswoman Barbara Dawson said the companies initiated settlement talks this week. She expressed confidence that the issue, which does not seek a specific monetary figure, would be resolved.

Pokemon USA spokeswoman Amy Wexler declined to comment on the settlement talks or the case. But the New York company -- a partner with Redmond-based Nintendo of America -- issued a short statement yesterday denying any wrongdoing.

"We were sued the day after our distribution agreement with Wizards ended," the statement said. "We are confident that we've acted both legally and fairly with respect to Wizards and believe these issues will be resolved."

The Wizards lawsuit alleges that at least nine employees were hired by Pokemon USA, including Rene Flores, vice president of marketing, and Richard Arons, senior vice president of non-Magic trading card games. All of the employees had signed non-disclosure agreements in which they agreed not to reveal confidential information to competitors.

Arons and Flores, who were hired in 2002 by Pokemon USA, are named as defendants in the lawsuit.

After those hires, Wizards of the Coast said the relationship with Pokemon USA "turned sour."

"Pokemon USA used the intervening period to undermine its relationship with Wizards, deprive Wizards of the benefit of its bargain and take its intellectual property, all to gain competitive advantage over its longtime partner," the lawsuit says.

Although the contract between the two companies ended Sept. 30, Nintendo of America issued a news release six months ago announcing a new division to manage its trading card business.

"Since Nintendo already produces the Pokemon video games, it's a natural extension for them to distribute and market the trading card games," Pokemon USA President Akira Chiba said in a statement at the time of the release.

Wizards suit alleges that Pokemon USA failed to carry out its contract and therefore Wizards is "entitled to an award of exemplary damages to punish Pokemon USA's wrongful conduct and to make an example of it."

Once the hottest trading card game on U.S. playgrounds, the Pokemon phenomena has run out of steam in recent years. Cards that once traded for hundreds of dollars are now sold for pennies.

In late 2000, Wizards of the Coast laid off 100 employees owing in part to the weakening demand for the game.

Wizards of Coast, which employs 850 people, was purchased by Hasbro Inc. for $325 million in 1999. It is best known for the Magic trading card game.

Nintendo of America is a subsidiary of Nintendo Co., the Japanese game maker that owns the Pokemon trademarks. Pokemon has generated more than $15 billion in merchandise sales.

Tego

10/11/2003, 04:45 PM

Oh my... anyone remember the talk about the "friendly parting"?

They haven't been good friends at all. Well, a lot of us began to suspect this when suddenly Jamboree and LC2 was canceled by Nintendo/TPC/whatever.

GymLeaderPhil

10/11/2003, 04:46 PM

http://famulus.msnbc.com/famuluscom/bizjournal10-11-010437.asp?bizj=SEA

A suit of cards: Wizards of the Coast sues Nintendo over Pokemon game

By Eric Engleman
Puget Sound Business Journal (Seattle)

Oct. 13 — Renton-based game developer Wizards of the Coast Inc. has sued Redmond-based Nintendo of America Inc. and several affiliates for breach of contract and patent infringement over the hit Pokemon trading-card game.
The lawsuit, filed Oct. 1 in U.S. District Court in Seattle, accuses Nintendo affiliate Pokemon USA of abandoning a contract with Wizards, the longtime producer and distributor of Pokemon trading-card games, and using Wizards-patented methods and technology to manufacture the games itself. The lawsuit also names two former Wizards executives who were hired away by Pokemon USA, accusing them of revealing trade secrets.
The suit provides a glimpse of a bitter behind-the-scenes dispute over the Pokemon trading-card games, which became hugely popular in the late 1990s and sold millions of copies nationwide. The game allows players to do imaginary battle using illustrated cards.
Wizards, a subsidiary of Hasbro Inc., claims it pioneered the idea of a trading-card game and holds the patent rights to it. Its own Magic: The Gathering card game became a cult phenomenon, and generated sales of hundreds of millions of dollars in the mid-1990s.
The company signed an agreement with Nintendo in 1998 to manufacture and distribute the Pokemon trading card games outside Asia, the lawsuit says. The Pokemon companies are affiliates of Nintendo's parent company in Japan, according to the suit.
The collaboration lasted for several years, but relations between the partners began to sour in 2002, when Pokemon USA hired away a Wizards senior vice president, Richard Arons, and a vice president, Rene Flores, according to the lawsuit. Several other Wizards executives also went to work for Pokemon, says the suit.
In March 2003, Pokemon USA refused to allow Wizards to release two trading card games -- the Jamboree and Legendary II expansion sets for the Pokemon Gold & Silver edition -- which the Wizards team had spent considerable time and money developing, says the suit. Pokemon also informed Wizards that it had not been chosen to manufacture and distribute a new Pokemon trading-card game, the Ruby/Sapphire edition, the lawsuit says.
Pokemon began producing the Ruby/Sapphire edition itself -- using Wizards' proprietary methods and materials, according to the lawsuit -- and made Nintendo the distributor.
The lawsuit says Pokemon representatives offered to approve release of the Legendary II set, if Wizards agreed to provide free marketing support and confidential information about tournament players. Wizards refused. The day after its last set of agreements with Pokemon USA expired on Sept. 30, Wizards filed the lawsuit, seeking a trial by jury and unspecified damages.
The lawsuit accuses Pokemon of soliciting and hiring at least seven former Wizards employees to work on the Ruby/Sapphire trading-card game edition, including Wizards' former art director, senior graphic designer, business manager, events marketing director and project management director.
All had signed nondisclosure agreements prohibiting them from using or disclosing confidential information about Wizards to third parties, according to the lawsuit.
The lawsuit alleges that the former Wizards employees had access and were responsible for "every critical" stage of converting the Japanese version of the Pokemon Ruby/Sapphire edition to English, as well as manufacturing, packaging, marketing and distributing it.
The suit accuses Pokemon USA of using Wizards' proprietary information to solicit Wizards' distributors, vendors and customers.
"Wizards of the Coast has built tremendous brand equity over the years with our popular proprietary trading-card games and aggressively seeks to protect its valuable intellectual property and trade secrets," Wizards said in a statement.
Barbara Dawson, a spokeswoman for Wizards, said the parties had entered into settlement talks but provided no further details.
Pokemon USA, in a written statement responding to the suit, insisted it did nothing wrong or illegal. "We were sued the day after our distribution agreement with Wizards ended. We are confident that we've acted both legally and fairly with respect to Wizards and believe the issues will be resolved," the company said.
Nintendo of America, which owns the Pokemon trademark in the United States, did not return calls seeking comment.

Copyright 2003 American City Business Journals Inc.

Tego

10/11/2003, 04:49 PM

The lawsuit says Pokemon representatives offered to approve release of the Legendary II set, if Wizards agreed to provide free marketing support and confidential information about tournament players. Wizards refused.

That is... more than just interesting. o.O; It's shocking.

GymLeaderPhil

10/11/2003, 04:50 PM

They haven't been good friends at all. Well, a lot of us began to suspect this when suddenly Jamboree and LC2 was canceled by Nintendo/TPC/whatever.

From what I've heard from an official representative: WotC jumped the gun when releasing that information. It was still waiting to be confirmed by TPC.
-Phil

Jim Ferrell

10/11/2003, 05:04 PM

Good God...

...*wonders where this leaves the game*

Such a shame really...*shrugs*...business will be business I guess... :nonono:

~Jim Ferrell

Tego

10/11/2003, 05:06 PM

The whole Wizards-to-Nintendo transfer has been so mysterious and with so many unanswered questions. Everyone shut their mouths about it until now, but this lawsuit finally gives us some information on what really was going on.

Raikou

10/11/2003, 05:11 PM

awww wotc is jus mad that nintendo got it and they're trying to get some cash like every other loser in the world who thinks money is a means to an end

this case is just like all the mcdonalds cases where they involved either stupidity or just wanting some cash in their pocket, except for the fact that wotc makes some solid statements if infact they are true.

those statements such as the 7 former NDAed wotc people...making the cards using wotc stuff...though i thought proprietary allows anyone to use it for free so that stuff can be done (example such as macromedia flash needed to view some sites) Why doesnt macromedia jus start suing everyone for using their proprietary stuff too =/

wotc jus wantz deh cash....what losers =/

RaNd0m

10/11/2003, 05:19 PM

I seriously doubted it was a "friendly parting" between WotC and TPC. There always seemed to be so many tensions.

I'm GUESSING this is what happened, and by no means am I saying I'm right.

Nintendo probably offered the 8 employees that were working for WotC a larger salary + signing bonus + benefits, and WotC did not top the offer. Those 8 employees quit, and signed with Nintendo. They probably gave Nintendo some ideas that were initially thought up at WOTC HQ... or something. Regardless, WotC DOES have some potential to win this case.

~ RaNd0m

Dro~

10/11/2003, 05:23 PM

I feel sorry for wizards. Afterall, it was wizards who brought up the pokemon TCG.

marril2k

10/11/2003, 05:35 PM

Hmm... a good question, what will happen IF wizards wins this case? How badly will it damage Pokemon USA, Inc. (if at all), and what eccoing ripples will it hit the players (if any)?

If those some (or all) of those ex-wizards employees where part of that mass-layoff... its kinda ironic wizards saw it okay for them to go away, but now its wrong since they work for PUI?... Intresting how things work out... If they are up for getting at PUI, why not try and wack at AEG for having L5R or Upper Deck for the creating of Card Games? Just a thought...

-marril

Maverick Hunter Zero

10/11/2003, 05:37 PM

*sigh*

Heaven forbid they do what's best for the game.

All about money. But then, thinking they'd do what's best for the game and not what nets the most money is incredibly foolish thinking.

Oy.

Water Pokemon Master

10/11/2003, 06:01 PM

If they continue to fight over this issue, Wizards may try to shut down Nintendo from making any of the future sets (kind of like destiny bond) and then what will happen?

I hope this doesn't become a serious issue. If it does, I say we make our own cards on the internet with the help of PA! and Zeo! :)

mysterioustrainer

10/11/2003, 06:14 PM

Psy-aye-aye-aye-duck!

Umm this could be bad, how bad? I can't say. A situation like this you can only strap on a seat belt and hope your air bags won't fire off. I'm speechless today.

I think that the only thing we should do is NOT hail Nintendo, Pokemon USA, or WotC with emails, letters, etc. I honestly can't say we will lose Pokemon from a simple lawsuit however who knows what changes there will now be if or if not Wizards wins this. I wish there was more information about this however we can only wait until the courts decide this one. Sigh too much to take in.

Pidgeotto Trainer

10/11/2003, 07:23 PM

:( :(
Just when things were finally looking up with the announcement of Eon, more details coming about Dragon, we get this. :(
Wizards sounds like it has a good point. Having Nintendo stop the release of 2 sets that they apparently started to make. That would be something you could see Wizards losing money and wanting money for.
*sigh*
All we can do is hope for the best. Which would be something like Wizards or Nintendo somehow gets to release LC2 and Jamboree. :clap:
We can dream can't we? :D

Orange Soda

10/11/2003, 07:32 PM

Way back in the day, Nintendo was sued by Universal Studios. Universal claimed that the arcade game Donkey Kong was infringement upon its movie, King Kong. Nintendo countersued, saying King Kong was never Universal's intellectual property. Nintendo won. The character Kirby is named after their lawyer from this case.

Now that's not to say that Wizards doesn't have a chance. But if this does go to court, Nintendo's sure to put up a darned good fight.

yoshi1001

10/11/2003, 07:36 PM

I remember that from the book Game Over (an excellent read for those of you interested in Nintendo history).

Of course, none of us has enough information to make a decision, leave the lawyering to the laywers.

UncleBob

10/11/2003, 07:36 PM

Okey... from what I read in those two posted articles (which wasn't much) and what I know about the legal issues involved (which isn't much either) TPC may be *********. But, as others have said, wait and see...

ToysRUsKid

10/11/2003, 07:42 PM

- Cleflytuff told me to post this since he'z too lazy to make an account ;/

"Everyone's saying that WotC has a good point, that's the whole point for filing a lawsuit, isn't it? Even if their point isn't complete enough to sue, they're going to pull everything they can, so as yoshi said, leave the lawyering to the lawyers, nobody here has seen both sides just yet"

-----------

This is interesting really, I didn't expect this too happen. I just hope this doesn't kill the game.

ShadowCard

10/11/2003, 07:56 PM

that is so wrong of WOTC. They don't even wish to sell nintendo's Pokemon TCG until they finally see it's larger than expected sales and decide to get back involved and sue Nintendo.

I cheer for Nintendo's victory in this case. The only thing WOTC should be allowed to do is release Jamboree.

All we can do is hope for the best. Which would be something like Wizards or Nintendo somehow gets to release LC2 and Jamboreethey probably won't be allowed in Modified.

I say we make our own cards on the internet with the help of PA! and Zeo!ooooo, no. then we'd get sued.

PokePop

10/11/2003, 08:08 PM

ONe thing I hope it clears up is that WotC wanted to retain the Pokemon liscence.

RaNd0m

10/11/2003, 08:22 PM

I'm still waiting for all the "communication problems" between TPC and Wizards to be exposed... such as WHY exactly the 15+ was excluded in the first place. As I thought back then and I continue to think, TPC wasn't involved, but rather, Wizards wanted us to go to Magic.

~ RaNd0m

Articjedi

10/11/2003, 08:57 PM

This is certainly interesting, but I would like to know what WOTC wants out of this case.

SailorClef

10/11/2003, 09:11 PM

Pokemon representatives offered to approve release of the Legendary II set, if Wizards agreed to provide free marketing support and confidential information about tournament players

::cough:: erm.. am i the only one who thinks that's kind of a big deal? O_o

MetaGrossEX

10/11/2003, 09:32 PM

I think as this time as fans we need to show nintendo our support for the game .So Nintendo knows that they have fans out there to fight this law suit for us the people who made pokemon what it is today.

UncleBob

10/11/2003, 09:34 PM

ONe thing I hope it clears up is that WotC wanted to retain the Pokemon liscence.
Not necessarly. It could just be that they felt they were treated wrongly toward the end of the lisence and want retribution for it. Though I feel you're probably right...

::cough:: erm.. am i the only one who thinks that's kind of a big deal?
Not really. It seems like a fair deal to me ("We'll let you make some cash off of releasing this set if you'll help us make some cash off your database of existing customers")....

Mystery Thing

10/11/2003, 09:41 PM

This is certainly interesting, but I would like to know what WOTC wants out of this case.

FROM A BUSINESS POINT OF VIEW:

what do they want? they probably want it dead. it is now a rival TCG which they do not control, and therefore is money going into a TCG which they do not get. if pokemon dies, those that want to stick with a TCG would probably turn to either magic, neopets, or star wars, depending on the age of the player. that is profits of players going from non-wotc to wotc.

im not saying that i mean they're doing this maliciously (money turns the world and all that), but from a money point of view, they either want a) control of the game again, or b) its death.

*shrugs*

my 2 cents (one canadian and one australian, just because.) :D :lol:

The Fish King

10/11/2003, 09:56 PM

I never expected to hear about blackmail coming from PUI, but, then again, I'm not too surprized either. It's been done by many companies before. This one is no different.

Nick15

10/11/2003, 10:19 PM

Blackmail... more like extortion.

Hmm..... well, the news paper is always like the abridged version of the actual lawsuit. I wonder if the entire lawsuit text is online somewhere....

RaNd0m

10/11/2003, 10:21 PM

It should be public information if it is a civil suit. Maybe Washington State's webpage?

ShadowCard

10/11/2003, 10:37 PM

what do they want? they probably want it dead. it is now a rival TCG which they do not control, and therefore is money going into a TCG which they do not get. if pokemon dies, those that want to stick with a TCG would probably turn to either magic, neopets, or star wars, depending on the age of the player. that is profits of players going from non-wotc to wotc.they probably do want it dead. With the Pokemon appreciation package, i also got Star wars and MLB cards. I'm not going to play those games, i'm going to give them away when my school does the charity drive thing (so they're still going to a good cause). Even if you go to yugioh, you don't escape WOTC because apparently upperdeck pays WOTC for some of the mechanics of yugioh. If pokemon dies, i leave the TCG scene. if WOTC kills pokemon, i won't buy another TCG, especially if WOTC makes it.
neopets replace pokemon? they must be in trouble if they came to that idea.

Mystery Thing

10/11/2003, 10:46 PM

here's a slightly more disturbing thought (for some):

say wotc wins, and the pokemon tcg is killed.

with the speed that nintendo is producing video games these days....

would the death of the Pokemon TCG result in the death of Pokemon itself?

Orange Soda

10/11/2003, 11:03 PM

would the death of the Pokemon TCG result in the death of Pokemon itself?

Doubt it. Non-TCG sales might be hampered somewhat, but Pokemon's popularity does not rely solely on the card game. There are millions of people out there who enjoy the Game Boy games but don't bother with the TCG, I'd think.

Mystery Thing

10/11/2003, 11:14 PM

i meant it as a possible thought for disussion at a later point, thats all. i mean, i havent touched ruby other than for the R/S challenge in a long time, and for all i know i could be among a large group of people that see its likewise.

agreed though, there are most likely a large group of people that do just the video game part of it.

steering this back on topic now, how much of an effort do you all thing PUI will put into this to win? and is how the cards are physically constructed wotc's biggest beef with what pui did? (other than take away a relatively profitable game, i mean).

Prof|l0ne

10/11/2003, 11:37 PM

[IMHO mode, I could and probably AM wrong.]
For the LCII thing:
PUI already decided WotC wouldn't produce cards anymore.
PUI wanted WotC's DCI player database, probably to start with an already-estabilished player ladder.
WotC asked WotC's Lawyers who told WotC they'd be getting into a law nightmare if they were doing so, especially with European-area players (who have all these nice little laws forbidding companies from giving out people's personal data without written consent).
Maybe PUI also asked for other internal information (production? Jamboree? League plans? who knows?) which was on WotC's Big No-No List. So WotC said no.

WotC has been planning the lawsuit for some time, probably since the big WotC -> PUI hiring of directors.

This, along with WotC's rumored losses, is probably the reason why least-selling TCGs like Harry Potter or Star Wars were canceled or delayed after the loss of Pokémon. (I'm told Star Wars is still alive.)

I can't thing of anything else right now. Remember, though, that since I don't know anything more than the two articles at the top of this thread, I'm probably wrong.

- l0ne

Nick15

10/11/2003, 11:40 PM

I doubt if Wizards "wins" this lawsuit it'll spell the end of the Pokémon TCG. As far as I'm aware, Wizards is only seeking financial damages they claim Nintendo did by breaching their contract. Nintendo however has deep pockets... regardless of how much Nintendo may lose in this, they'll keep the game alive.

0bserver

10/11/2003, 11:47 PM

Very Interesting...

Whoever doesn't see either Nintendo or Wizards as a company, first and foremost, really doesn't have a clue about economics. MTM, DMTM, etc., aside, the bottom line is finances. One of my favorite games, NFL Showdown, is likely never to be produced again because of this stark reality. And if something is a cash cow, you know there will be at least a little fight. If the product is lucrative enough, like Pokemon, it will create residual effects of good customer support, OP, and whatnot as well. When the cash flow tapers off, so does the non-monetary investment. Haven't we seen that with Pokemon? Why the shock then?

Second, logically speaking, I see two possibilities with a Wizards win. (1) The games gets a facelift. I don't know what "insider secrets" were revealed...and I'm not sure it's that significant. But if it were, we'd probably see further revision in the way the cards look or something to that effect. (2) Wizards will get monetary compensation and let it go at that. The TCG would continue as normal, with the possible ramification of increased prices somewhere along the lines. That the game may die isn't likely, as it is still popular.

These comment just imho.

Marcello-Milord

10/12/2003, 02:26 AM

Hmmm
Maybe the Jamboree thing is involved as much as the other things...
I never saw Jamboree cards, but our Wizards'OP manager saw them, and told to me that there were a lot of new mechanics and that there were more "competitive-game" based.
Now, remember the never-seen Sandstorm cards?
Obiouvsly, the new Pokémon cards are not from Jamboree, but if they used the jamboree mechanics? It's always "intellectual property" of Wizards, they writed down them, and these cards were ready to print (except for ilustration, which probably were created in japan... and so the eeveelutions on Sandstorm!).
Then I highly doubt that a LCII release, after this little "Poké-war", may be on the way, if it ever should have been on the way...

Michel

10/12/2003, 05:35 AM

Nintendo Japan/Nintendo USA/WotC USA/WotC offices/TPC/PUI/Hasbro/European distributors/... that's not a TCG anymore, it's the NYSE !

It's maybe interesting to know what happened, but it is far above our heads anyway.
Big business, big money, corporate influences, ... but what about the game ???

I don't want to give any comment or expectations about that situation because ... I have no information. Any comment would be just rumours.

The main question is : Will it affect the game and the community, and if it does, how ?

ukpokemonpro

10/12/2003, 07:45 AM

It's not a big deal really .. here's my take on the whole thing really..

WotC take on this monster craze pokemon in the form of the TCG .. right from day 1 they see it (at least some) as a threat to MtG .. takes players and introduces them to a non-wotc owned brand .. mm

WotC fight internally over Pokemon .. Hasbro take over just as sales slump .. support wains and international is virtually wiped out.

Some get to hear about the long term future for the game and point out some of the WotC strategy and what maybe the consequences they are hounded on the old gym and are still berated as being wrong by some here .. Guess it's like Iraq ... no weapons but we were still right guys and gals :(

Anyhow TPC wake up smell the coffee and want WotC gone, WotC want the brand control but at greatly reduced costs ... their support wains and they rush their last sets out

PUSA has already started moving on WotC employees and TPC eventually strips license from WotC and gives it to PUSA ...

TPC/Nintendo say no to last 2 sets from WotC after failed negotiations and WotC gets ****** after PUSA release Ruby and Sapphire within week of skyridge.

WotC sues PUSA and that causes comment and possible bad feeling against Nintendo/PUSA .. whole lot gets settled out of court and we are the only ones that lose.

Kinda puts the PUSA didn't have long to plan OP to shame though when they were planning this through 2002 ;)

Certainly in the end it's just business doing business not nice but that is the American way guys and gals ... gotta admire WotC/Hasbro for fighting their corner and PUSA for having brass ones in nicking the staff.

Dek

10/12/2003, 08:03 AM

Like always, stupid stuff like this is just because Wizards isnt getting as much money as they used to. If WotC is sueing P-USA, NoJ (Nintendo of Japan) might as well get into this lawsuit, since they own the TCG in Japan, and start whipping Wizards butt. Obviously, Wizards is just doing this cuz they wont get money for Jamboree and Legendary Collection 2.

If it does affect the TCG community, the following might happen:

1. Wizards might get the liscense
2. Nintendo might keep the liscense
3. Nothing will happen. They will just kiss, make up, and have a party with a nice bonfire and they'll start singing nice camping songs.

TheDancingPeanut

10/12/2003, 08:03 AM

I just think it's odd that WoTC can own the patent on the WAY TO PLAY A GAME ... god, I love America, and I'm all for protecting intellectual property (I'm a songwiter), but c'mon ... how can you patent the mechanics to a game???

ScythKing

10/12/2003, 08:07 AM

... and is how the cards are physically constructed wotc's biggest beef with what pui did? (other than take away a relatively profitable game, i mean).
Just one knot in the tangle my friend. Does anyone remember when the first set - Expedition - was "delayed"? Turns out that WotC and Nintendo were jointly working on the set to implement the dot code technology - something about the printing if I remember correctly.
Then again WotC does in fact hold the core patents that Richard Garfield and Peter Adkison obtained with Magic: The Gathering. They cover the whole concept of a collectable TCG, that uses expansions sets and booster packs to extend the game play. Technically anyone wishing to sell a TCG needs to get in on this license.
Then there was the fateful events at Worlds where a slip of the tongue revealed WotC plans to dump warehouses of product and make the brand worthless if they lost the license. That leaked and so we had "Player Appreciation" day at GenCon. I don't think I'm being cynical or unfair in pointing out that huge "coincidence". Maybe that little expose' soured relationships and thus they decided the relationship had gone far enough. It would be interesting to see the chain of events on this sad tale. Probably be an excellent example of real corporate politics.

GymLeaderPhil

10/12/2003, 08:18 AM

Then there was the fateful events at Worlds where a slip of the tongue revealed WotC plans to dump warehouses of product and make the brand worthless if they lost the license.

Actually, I heard about the license renewal stuff at Origins that year... nearly a month before Worlds. Mike Gills was really worried about it then. Obviously something before late June/early July between the two companies caused the hostile relationship. Though that could be anything, heck the 15+ chaos could have sparked it. TPC never liked that little situation, but that's all I've heard from one side of the story. I'm sure if I talked with a WotC representative right now, they would say they never liked it. Instead of WotC VS TPC... let's all blame Hasbro :lol:
-Phil

yoshi1001

10/12/2003, 09:23 AM

"1. Wizards might get the liscense"

Not likely, whatever happened, the liscense still expired a few weeks ago.

"2. Nintendo might keep the liscense"

Probably.

"3. Nothing will happen. They will just kiss, make up, and have a party with a nice bonfire and they'll start singing nice camping songs."

As long as MTM isn't invited.

"Hmm..... well, the news paper is always like the abridged version of the actual lawsuit. I wonder if the entire lawsuit text is online somewhere...."

I tried the court's website yesterday, but it was down.

Water Pokemon Master

10/12/2003, 09:27 AM

Maybe a Wizards employee lost to a game of Pokemon against a Nintendo one, and it has evolved into this big thing. :)

Actually, we probably won't know what happened between the two companies until the case is settled.

Another thing. Do you mean that Player Appreciation at GenCon was only because of some sort of slip and would not have originally happened?

ukpokemonpro

10/12/2003, 09:49 AM

Do you mean that Player Appreciation at GenCon was only because of some sort of slip and would not have originally happened?

Stunning spoiling strategy really messes with PUSA and PUI and raises the expectations for OP

ShadowCard

10/12/2003, 10:07 AM

Maybe a Wizards employee lost to a game of Pokemon against a Nintendo one, and it has evolved into this big thinggood one :lol:

perhaps another reason PUI, P-USA, TPC, or whoever controls the liscense (so many names i didn't know existed and now i'm lost) didn't want WOTC to have the liscense was because WOTC was showing signs of independance from them. WOTC did make a team mulitplayer format which was WOTC only because it wasn't made by TPC. Then WOTC decides to try making its own set (Jamboree) with its own new mechanics (which i hope weren't broken enough to cause a restricted list to have been created) and such. If you were TPC and you knew WOTC was doing that to you, might that worry you a bit? if WOTC could sucessfully make their own sets without reliance on what was in Japan, that could be trouble.

djcati

10/12/2003, 12:58 PM

"(I'm told Star Wars is still alive.)"
Eh, I don't think Star Wars ever WAS alive, or at least I've never seen anything with it.
*sticks up "looking for Brit SW players" signs everywhere*

Even if WotC could make their own sets without using original Japanese cards, they'd still need the license and copyright from Nintendo to use the Pokemon names..

GreatFox

10/12/2003, 02:06 PM

Somehow, I can't help but feeling that all of us had a hand in this lawsuit. After all, when we all found out about the switch to NOA/PUI, didn't we all get on thier case about keeping everything just about the same. We all wanted OP to remain the same or similar. We all wanted the Professor Program to continue. We all wanted Leagues to continue. We all wanted Premier Events. We all wanted sanctioned tournament play. We all wanted DCI like floor rules and ratings. We all wanted 100% backwards compatability.

And what happened?... We got all that (for the most part).

We'll just have to wait and see what happens. But if history is any indication... most, if not all lawsuits filed againts NOA have failed or were settled out of cout without any trickling effect to costumers. (can't say the same about NCL and NOE though :( )

NoPoke

10/12/2003, 02:07 PM

Still got lots and lots of swtcg stuff.... even managed to get some prize support out of WotC for a sanctioned event....but not enough players turned up :(

At Gencon Europe there was only 1 (yes that is ONE) swtcg player.

As to the law suits... well we will have to wait and see what happens after the initial mud slinging stops.

There will be no winner.. only a least looser.

farbsman

10/12/2003, 02:54 PM

Everyone seems to forget one thing, Wizards makes money off of Pokemon, Yu-gi-oh and others because of this little snidbit of info.

The company holds an exclusive patent on the method of playing trading card games (TCGs) and produces the premier trading card game, Magic: The Gathering®, among many other trading card games and family card and board games.

That patent makes it so anyone using the TCG name has to pay Wizards some money

Water Pokemon Master

10/12/2003, 03:04 PM

So can't they just name it something else? Why not the Pokemon Exchanging and Playing Card Game.

yoshi1001

10/12/2003, 03:05 PM

That would only work if WotC had merely copyrighted the name, and a patent is a bit more broad.

ShadowCard

10/12/2003, 03:34 PM

could one just change the name of their game to a CCG (collectable card game)? would that work in getting around the patent? or does WOTC hold that too? I thought upperdeck had CCG.

SD PokeMom

10/12/2003, 03:35 PM

Someone else...Decipher, I think..holds the 'CCG' trademark.

'mom

PokePop

10/12/2003, 04:54 PM

Trademarks and Service Marks are totally different things than Patents and both are different than Copyrights.

Ah yes. Giving out a few cases of cards to a few fans at a few events is equal to the market flood that some warned of. :rolleyes:

yoshi1001

10/12/2003, 04:59 PM

Anyway, I say 10-1 this thing gets settled out of court and we don't hear a thing. Besides, it's not like any of us are gonna get called to testify.

Mewtwo: My lawyer has instructed me that I have no comment on the matter.

Okay...

Son of Leod

10/12/2003, 06:47 PM

I always thought the Pokemon TCG infringed on the Magic patents and that was the reason WOTC got the US distribution rights. I can easily understand WOTC wanting fair value for their patents after Nintendo pulled the license.

Nick15

10/12/2003, 07:08 PM

farbsman:
Actually the reason why Yu-gi-oh and Upper Deck pays royalties to Wizards is because Yu-gi-oh is, in every legal sense, based on Magic: the Gathering. As in that Upper Deck pays Wizards royalties for using Magic elements in the game. :) ... Anyone who's played Magic and Yu-gi-oh will notice the similarities. And anyone who's kept tabs on the Yu-gi-oh franchise may be familiar with Yu-gi-oh's creator's particular fondness of Magic: the Gathering. :)

Just one knot in the tangle my friend. Does anyone remember when the first set - Expedition - was "delayed"? Turns out that WotC and Nintendo were jointly working on the set to implement the dot code technology - something about the printing if I remember correctly.

How could I forget? More so, I did find it odd that there were English Expedition cards made by a non-Wizards source (remember that Gastly card that was hot a while back?). This is kinda when I began to suspect things were amiss between Wizards and Nintendo, but never paid much attention to it.

.... Now it is my opinion that Nintendo intended on running the card game from day one, but didn't know how to. So Nintendo got some sucker (Wizards) to teach them how to produce cardboard cards, or at least give them enough info to eventually jump ship and produce their own cards. Lord knows if I was running a corporation, the more internalized I could get things, the better it would be for my company. And if I want to product something but can't, I'd either learn from a friend-corporation, research it myself, or buy out someone who knows how.

With that said.... I wouldn't be surprized if Nintendo intended to buy Wizards of the Coasts while Wizards was still independant. However Hasbro got to them before Nintendo, so they shifted their goals to just learn from Wizards then jump ship.

... There's obviously WAY more to this than any of us could figure out. (Mind you these are all my own guesstimations, none of this has been secret info given to me by "my sources".) ;)

UncleBob

10/12/2003, 07:25 PM

remember that Gastly card that was hot a while back?

What? Do tell... ?:|

Dek

10/12/2003, 07:27 PM

NOW IT MAKES SENSE!!!

Nintendo didnt pay royalties to Wizards for using game mechanics that similar to MTG. Time for a little compare and contrast...

1. Drawing cards: Both games have you draw 7 cards at the beginning.
2. Placing cards in play: At the beginning of the game, you are required to put your mana cards in the field (MTG) or your basic Pokemon on the field if you have any (Pokemon)

Thats all i know about game mechanics that are similar. Got any others that you can share, Nick15?

Oh, and about this card game names (like CCG or TCG), my alter-ego thought of something. Take it away...

Zero: Thank you. Anyways, I suggest that Pokemon-e should be called Pokemon ERCG- Pokemon E-Reader Card Game. Instead of calling it Pokemon-e, I think my alternative would be a lot better to prevent any more lawsuits.

Michel

10/12/2003, 08:13 PM

GreatFox,
I don't think that we wanted the same as we had, but we wanted at least as much, even if it was different.

If we now have quite exactly the same (no Mods, I haven't said 'in the USA, not in Europe' :p ), I think it's probably because what Wizards had proposed was the best thing to offer.

Some things are 'corrected', like the 15+, more main events, ... but what would have been our reaction if Nintendo/PUI had decided to change everything ?

Am I wrong, or does Pokemon come from Japan ? Has TPC copied WotC too ?
Who gave the rulings, sets, ... ?

Am I wrong or does a member of PUI come from Decipher ? Will Decipher attack Nintendo/PUI too ?

MtG is the first TCG, and I don't see how other card games couldn't use one or more of MtG aspects. The basic idea of playing with cards could be called 'a copy of MtG'.
Does that mean that Magic has to be the only TCG on the market ?

We'll probably never know exactly what happened, and what happens. It's corporate business, and we'll only have a small part of the information.

Once again, the most important, IMO, is to know if it will affect the game and the players.

PokePop

10/12/2003, 08:19 PM

Even if WotC is dreaming, they may try to say that any TCG is an infringement on MTG.
After all, DC and Marvel jointly trademarked the term Superhero, if you can imagine that. No one has the deep pockets to let them take them to court over it, so other companies talk about their Meta Humans, etc.

yoshi1001

10/12/2003, 08:24 PM

Here's a little retrospective for reference:

How WotC got Pokemon:

http://members.aol.com/yoshi1001/mikeint.mp3(605k)

How Jimmer got involved with PUI:

http://members.aol.com/yoshi1001/jimmerint.mp3(370k)
Enjoy (by the way, while you are free to quote from these, do be sure to cite your source. Do not use them in audio form without my permission).

Sorry, got used to high-speed.

PokePop

10/12/2003, 08:33 PM

As a reference, how big are those files Yoshi?
Just asking so people can decide if they're too big to download beforehand.

Golden Suikun

10/12/2003, 08:35 PM

Yeah, either I'm wrong, but wasn't the Pokémon TCG an import from Japan to begin with? If I remember correctly the original Japanese Pokémon TCG was released in late 1996. I also know that all of the Japanese cards (or at least the pre-VS ones; hadn't checked since then) are produced in Japan by a corporation named Media Factory. Plus, it is interesting that one brought up rules that Pokémon share with Magic (see a few posts above). So, Nintendo has made Pokémon cards years before it dealt with Wizards. However, when the card game was introduced outside of Japan, Nintendo needed a middle person to produce the cards, so they hired Wizards. Now, Nintendo finally got worldwide control of the card game.

However, there has been some bad relations between TPC-Nintendo and Wizards. Everyone remembers what happened with Jamboree and Legendary Collection II, but remember Crosstrainer? (Jamboree-like expansion slated for the summer of 2001 containing Vending and Wizards-made cards) Crosstrainer was foiled, along with all following attempts of bringing Vending set cards (except for a few released as promos) as well as Wizards-made cards. Notice something? Plus, notice how the Pokémon francise kind of revived after the whole switchover? Maybe Wizards is still angry over what happened to Jamboree/Legendary Collection II and wants to get in on the reviving of the Pokémon card game. There are other factors, such as the use of "Trading Card Game," Wizards-made technology (although IMO the EX card design seems to be the closest to the Japanese ADV design than all of the other sets), etc.

All in all, I hope this doesn't have a negative effect on the players. Pokémon seems to be reviving everywhere and IMO times haven't been this good in years. Let's hope this lawsuit doesn't ruin it.

SteveP

10/12/2003, 09:16 PM

So, THAT'S WHY Nintendo's OP seems to have stalled since Oct 1! Something came up! I hope this gets resolved soon.

pokeprofRaymond

10/12/2003, 10:05 PM

Since I have just opened the thread, it is about time to ask some questions:

1. What does the Pokemon TCG have that is been fought over with like kids in a sandbox?
2. Even though wizards wins the case and since this is a settlement that involve moral damages, will this do little impact on the game itself(since I believe will not "kill" the game)?
3. Why is this issue has brought so late, when the license for the game for WotC, has expired months ago?
4. How "normal" will the OP, and distribution of the cards be normal even after this lawsuits (whoever wins anyway)?

My stand will be on Nintendo for this and as players, never get discouraged too much. All the players outside want to know is all the developments of this case "as of press time".
Thanks!!!! :)

mysterioustrainer

10/12/2003, 10:10 PM

Can I start screaming like a Psyduck some more?

Also could someone tell me what the difference is in a CCG and TCG?

PokePop

10/12/2003, 10:14 PM

3. Why is this issue has brought so late, when the license for the game for WotC, has expired months ago?

Actually, parts of the contract (OP for instance) did not expire until Sept 30th.

NoPoke

10/13/2003, 01:54 AM

NoPoke wonders what the difference between an 'exclusive patent' and an ordinary one might be.

All patents are intended to be exclusive. You lay out your exclusions in the list of claims on the patent application..

Also law suits spread FUD (thats fear uncertainty and doubt). FUD is standard practice amongst competing companies. The best time to drop a FUD bomb is when distributors/shops might be considering if they want to reinvest in pokemon. It seems highly likely that Wizards had this law suit lined up and ready to go for ages. It is equally likely that Nintendo have anticipated this and have had their response ready for some time too.

)v(ajin_ipg21

10/13/2003, 01:56 AM

*In shock*

I wonder if ANYTHING should ever surprise me...

Duskull master

10/13/2003, 02:34 AM

Financially speaking, this lawsuit will bring us..............
Less Holo per box
Cost more per packet

Am I wrong?

UncleBob

10/13/2003, 03:01 AM

Less Holo per box
Good. Holos are bad! :)

KingOfDemons

10/13/2003, 04:44 AM

Or for the same thing. UD recently hired a guy who used to run the DCI. The main purpose of the hire was to improve their tournament ranking programs for YGO: "Duelist King Tournaments".

IF Wizards do win it, man heck to pay for all the TCGs.

Hmm... a good question, what will happen IF wizards wins this case? How badly will it damage Pokemon USA, Inc. (if at all), and what eccoing ripples will it hit the players (if any)?

If those some (or all) of those ex-wizards employees where part of that mass-layoff... its kinda ironic wizards saw it okay for them to go away, but now its wrong since they work for PUI?... Intresting how things work out... If they are up for getting at PUI, why not try and wack at AEG for having L5R or Upper Deck for the creating of Card Games? Just a thought...

-marril

Gym Leader Blaine

10/13/2003, 03:52 PM

Actually, parts of the contract (OP for instance) did not expire until Sept 30th.

Which I think is bad on WOTC part to put a lawsuit into play the day after their contract expried, which makes you wonder how long they have been holding off on this one. I know my local Game Keeper store which is a WOTC store had the hardest time getting R&S in because they were told that PUI didnt want to ship it to them, or at least that is what their area manager said.

yoshi1001

10/13/2003, 03:55 PM

PokePop

10/13/2003, 04:14 PM

Here's an interesting quote I found on the Pokeschool chat logs for March 13, 2003:

"aster_trainer_mike presents the speaker with question #415 from neo_fox:
Hey... you never know, One year from now, TPC might crwal back to you guys again!
darkmt_mike laughs hysterically.
master_trainer_mike says, "Uhhhhhh......doubtful.""

I'm not insinuating anything, mind you, but it should be noted that this question did not make it into the Compendium log (again, not insinuating anything, probable just a gap in the log).
Yes you are insinuating something. Saying you're not doesn't make it so.

Number one: What the heck would be the point of us hiding that?
Number two: Who the hell do you think we are that we have some insidious inside track on legal matters like this?

[deleted much stronger words....]

[CHRISBO EDIT - For the record, question #415 *IS* in the Compendium logs; it just got tacked onto the end of #414 due to a parsing error. See http://pkcompendium.hypermart.net/logs/Chat_2003_03_13.txt for proof. Yoshi1001, I don't mind you quoting anyone's logs, but next time make sure you have your facts straight before poking fingers at ours. :mad:, :nonono: ]

babayaga

10/13/2003, 05:34 PM

What is it with Redmond, Washington? Is there something in the water there? :rolleyes:

[For those who don't get what I'm getting at: Redmond is also the home of Microsoft, and we Linux Geeks use the term "Redmond Boys" as an epithet.]

Dek

10/13/2003, 06:35 PM

dude, please dont be going off topic or spam. It is very inconsiderate to the people that have posted on this topic. This is a very important situation we are going through, and we dont need spam from anyone. Although Nintendo of America is in Redmond, Washington, its location has nothing to do with this topic. Please dont do this again.

)v(ajin_ipg21

10/13/2003, 06:54 PM

Uh excuse you Artha Zero.

BUt you must be a happy Wintel user.
*silence*

That is a pretty bad attitude you have there. This is a game and now there is a lawsuit involving the Big Boys.

You want the game to continue? They have in Europe with SOME very limited support.
We still have support.

babayaga IMO made a HUMOROUS point *can you tell I agree *d'oh*...

*Some people just don't get sarcasm nor irony*

So chill please...

Dek

10/13/2003, 07:05 PM

Sorry...I just dont like stuff going off topic at times...
::realzises what he's doing::
um...Let the topic continue *ZIP*

TheDancingPeanut

10/13/2003, 07:25 PM

Sorry...I just dont like stuff going off topic at times...
::realzises what he's doing::
um...Let the topic continue *ZIP*
This isn't off topic at all. Off topic is when you start talking about your grandma's brownie recipie

Dek

10/13/2003, 07:35 PM

This isn't off topic at all. Off topic is when you start talking about your grandma's brownie recipie

in THAT case...no, just kidding :lol:

Here are a few questions Im wondering about:

1. If Wizards DOES win the case, what will become of the Eon format?
2. Didn't the Pokemon TCG originate in Japan? If so, why is Wizards assuming that NoJ took game mechanics from MTG?

Orange Soda

10/13/2003, 07:40 PM

1. If Wizards DOES win the case, what will become of the Eon format?

Pokemon is and always will be Nintendo property. Shouldn't change a thing.

2. Didn't the Pokemon TCG originate in Japan? If so, why is Wizards assuming that NoJ took game mechanics from MTG?

Perhaps it was an international patent? I don't know, really, but there are similar mechanics (drawing, playing monsters, hands, magic/trainer cards, etc).

Maybe someone who is more familiar with patent laws can chime in.

yoshi1001

10/13/2003, 07:43 PM

"Perhaps it was an international patent? I don't know, really, but there are similar mechanics (drawing, playing monsters, hands, magic/trainer cards, etc)."

As I recall, a patent has to be applied for in each country you want to have one in.

pokeprofRaymond

10/13/2003, 07:44 PM

Uh excuse you Artha Zero.

You want the game to continue? They have in Europe with SOME very limited support.
We still have support.

I hope the big boys could settle this issue like matured adults and professionals and let things go back to normalcy.

OP and other things will still move on like ipg implied, Internationally and in the U.S.

.....will it? :confused:

)v(ajin_ipg21

10/13/2003, 08:56 PM

I believe it will.

This is something that WotC must have felt WAS left undone.

*Arthas... apologies if I was a tad rough but don't worry. WE MODS are really not looking to be INCREDIBLY STRICT as we were on the PokeGym with WotC. WE REALLY did need to keep a tight ship there.

OUR Goal here is to have KEPT the community together in cyberspace. *We are happy* and as long as you guys & gals keep coming back we are happier.

SO a small dose of off-topicness is welcome...

Just look around... nothing spammish, friendly banter.

cattdreams

10/13/2003, 09:54 PM

While I honestly dont think there is any point in us babbling over this topic in such great lack of detail and that the end result which will take awhile, most likely wont really have any effect on us. here is some info for those wondering exactly what was patented.

WotC Patents (http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO2&Sect2=HITOFF&p=1&u=/netahtml/search-bool.html&r=2&f=G&l=50&co1=AND&d=ptxt&s1='wizards+of+the+coast)

Red5bv06

10/13/2003, 10:52 PM

(Shorten the link please....edit: thanks)

I find this discussion all very interesting.
I wonder why they were all so eager to say "this is a friendly parting" when obviously it wasn't. Good business?
And I'll agree, it'll prob. be settled out of court. WOTC is flexing its muscles cause it thinks it has a good case, but no one can beat the big N.
Wisdom Tree comes close, it is still making unliscened NES games to this day. Nintendo doesn't mess with God. :D

ukpokemonpro

10/14/2003, 12:13 AM

The last time wotc started waving their patent around a whole lot of CCGs disappeared due to their inability to pay the royalties.

Now Pokemon as has been said has similar mechanics to MtG not as in Yu Gi Oh's case identicle. It is more likely that WotC are after NOA and PUSA over NDAs than patents.

They may try it again but they didn't win all the patent battles last time round ...

This is more about mudslinging and FUD as NoPoke says than anything I mean hey look we're all jittery here...

Now the game will not stop, the cards will still exist and the whole world will still turn so get out there and play, buy and promote because that's what will save the game more than anything else.

This is just Business ... hats off to WotC for pulling a fast one but in the end this will probably be settled out of court no one wins big and FUD increases...

CHARIZARD MASTERTRAINER

10/14/2003, 12:58 PM

Guys...

Bottomline here is that it is never easy to settle something that deals with money. There will always be disputes and arguments, so all we can really do is watch and hopefully this issue can be settled out of court peacefully with both parties coming to terms on the matter.
Business is a risky place to fall into....alot of sneaky things happen and this is just an example of it.

:nonono:See ya:nonono:

meganium45

10/14/2003, 02:49 PM

You also have to realize that big suits cost big money. In the battle of who has more money for their lawyers, well, it is easy to see who wins that battle!

Most likely neither side will want to spend millions in legal fees (awww, come on, gotta feed the lawyers) and will work out something.

If Ninetendo wants to make a point, they will throw money at this and see how WOTC can keep up. It will really become interesting to see this go to a full blown suit. These are the kind of suits that can sink a small company if they lose - or cause a small division of a large company to disappear.

Watch, listen, learn. But realize, it will not effect the game right now....too much is already in the works.

M45

SaNdy-MaN

10/14/2003, 04:08 PM

babayaga

10/15/2003, 09:08 PM

1. If Wizards DOES win the case, what will become of the Eon format?
2. Didn't the Pokemon TCG originate in Japan? If so, why is Wizards assuming that NoJ took game mechanics from MTG?

The whole thing might just be a FUD campaign (Fear, Uncertainty, Doubt--a tactic IBM originally employed, which was Embraced and Extended by Microsoft). I'd refer you to the SCO vs. IBM case which is currently ongoing. {Don't worry, this'll swing back to Topic!} In the SCO case, SCO starts making a lot of noise about IBM distributing Unix code which they claim has some of SCO's proprietary bits in it. This taints Linux as SCO brings the integrity of Linux code into question. Whilst IBM mobilizes the Big Guns (and Red Hat readies its own artillery), companies who have been planning a Switch start putting their plans on hold to wait and see what happens (and MS salivates, having donated $6m to SCO's legal fund*). What's really going on behind the scenes, is SCO doesn't have a leg to stand on, and they're on the verge of bankruptcy. They're trying to get the stock pumped up so their execs can dump it high. They're also trying to scare license fees out of Linux/IBM Unix using corporations. Extortion has become their business model.

I present this as the worst-case scenario. Luckily for us, the situation we're talking about here isn't so bad.

So here with WotC and NOA, we have again a Goliath being threatened by a smaller company that claims intellectual property violation. First of all, this isn't a suit about issues of card game mechanics, it's about personnel. I don't really see any company that would play Rich Uncle to WotC in this venture, unless Hasbro is truly "in for a penny, in for a pound" on this. I can't see NOA changing anything it's doing in response to the suit, just like IBM hasn't changed their practices. I don't see WotC as a company that will move to a licensing model of business (Magic is still very sucessful). I do see this as a chastisement for what WotC might see as steamrollerish practices by a much larger company which tied its hands in many ways during the contract.

I don't think we need to take sides. I don't think we need to worry, because the game's not going away. What might happen, if NOA is shown to have benefited from proprietary information and WotC is shown to have losses, is that NOA will have to pay damages. So, let's sit back and see what happens, shall we? And if we get too bored, we can also check out the latest SCO news--and see how not to run a lawsuit-in-progress. (i.e. Don't lie, exaggerate, and generally shoot yourself in the foot.)

PostScript

[Friendly Mode On] Arthas_Zero, I'm not a *dude* ;) , and spam is unsolicited commerical email, not humorous one-liners. The term "spam" is frequently misused in the forums, however, so I can understand your usage.[/Friendly Mode]

* see "I, Cringley" columns at PBS . org