View Full Version : Cradily Question
10/11/2003, 08:24 PM
One of our better players is playing a Cradily/Dustox combo, here's the question that arose from todays play. If it attacks with Lure poison on a Marshtomp thus bringing out a Mew2 EX and posioning it can Dustox use Toxic and posion the Mew2 EX also since it is a new defending Pokemon and Cradily attacked the old active Marshtomp now making Mew2 a new active Pokemon. My thinking is that a active Pokemon cannot be posioned twice, little help on this one.
Same deck, Cradily and Dustox. Player is wondering since Dustox prevents all effects and only takes damage would Azumarrill's Bubble attack be able to work. Since it says to flip a coin for every enery on all active then damage is calculated by the 30 x number of heads, isn't the flipping of the coins an effect.
10/11/2003, 08:43 PM
We'll have the MTs give an answer to the first one even though I'm certain it could be answered by existing rules. However, there is no question that the second one is that flipping of coins as part of a Damage calculation is not prevented. The flipping of coins is not an effect. It is a mechanic. Refer to rulings regarding 'Gatr's Riptide and Parasect:
Q. If I have a benched Parasect (Neo:R) and four (W) energies in my discard pile when my Active Feraligatr uses Riptide; does Riptide still do 50 damage, and do the (W) energies remain in my discard pile afterward?
A. Yes. It is still counted for the attack's damage amount, but it is NOT shuffled back into the deck in this case.(Oct 11, 2001 WotC Chat, Q7 & Q12)
Or, even better, Crystal Body rulings:
Q. With a Suicune defending, would an attack like Double Claw or Stone Barrage do any damage? So what do you do? 10 with Geodude, and 20 for Scizor, or do you flip to see how much?
A. Attacks that have 20+ or 20x or things like that do damage, the text tells you how to come to that damage, (normally flipping coins,) but since that number is there, you will do damage. You would flip to see how much damage. Here is how this works: Suicune prevents all text EXCEPT things that say, flip a coin this attack does X damage + X damage, or just X damage, or this attack does 20 times the number of heads. That is checking for damage, (just like it doesn't prevent the damage Gator does with riptide, just the effect of reshuffling). (Dec 6, 2001 WotC Chat, Q356 & Q374 & Q379)
Big Daddy Snorlax
10/12/2003, 06:06 PM
I moved a copy of this thread over to this forum from the Ask the Masters forum so we can discuss the questions. We'll get PUI to rule on this soon, but it is an interesting scenario. Pop provided references for the second question, and I think there are some existing rulings that pertain to the first one too.
Basically the question becomes what happens when a Poisoned Pokemon is attacked with an attack that also does Poison. In most cases who cares, Poison is Poison? In this case though, you'd like the Dustox Poison to be in effect, since it places 2 Damage counters. After the player attacks with Lure Poison, if they bring up Dustox and use Toxic, I believe the Poison effect will place 2 Damage counters. Here is a ruling from the Compendium about Nidoking's Toxic attack which is similar.
Q. If an opponent already has Nidoking's Toxic double-poison, then next turn I use a "normal-poison" attack, does the opponent retain Toxic's double-poison condition (20) or does it now become a single-poison condition (10)?
A. It would gain a single poison effect (the new effect replaces the old one). (April 27, 2000 WotC Chat Q19)
We'll see how PUI rules on this, but I'd say that applying another Poison effect would replace the one that's there.
10/13/2003, 11:04 AM
I think he means same turn not the following turn he is saying since there is a new pokemon he should able to attack again(at least that's how I'm reading it) any help in this regard is appreciated (I also go to this league and this deck is becoming mind boggling)
10/13/2003, 12:24 PM
If he's asking can someone attack twice in the same turn because there have been two different active Pokemon, the answer is a resounding NO!
If he is asking can Dustox attack a poisoned Active (from an attack on a previous turn) and make it double Posioned with Toxic, then of course it can. Toxic is an attack from Base Set. There is nothing new about it.
Now, an interesting question, and more like what I though was being asked, is if you were to use a Pokemon Power to Poison the Active (say, using Expedition's Vileplume), could Toxic then double poison the same turn? The answer to that would also be yes. The new Poison Condition would always replace the older one, even if it's only a less than a turn old.
10/13/2003, 12:56 PM
The Toxic attack places a poison marker on the defending pokemon. Since it already has a poison marker the replacement of the counter appears to do nothing. (A case where 1+1=1)
But the appearance is deceptive. Toxic DOES place a poison marker and also places an effect that doubles the damage that poison does. The presence of the pre-existing poison marker has no effect whatsoever upon the Toxic attack.
The only limit to the number of times an active pokemon can be poisoned is set by its HP and your ability to remove the poison damage.
Aside from the specific rulings mentioned above. The sequence of how poison works is covered in the theme deck rule books.
Calculation of damage is not an effect. A good way of remembering this is that effects occur after damage is placed. Since the flipping of coins has to take place before the damage is placed then those flips do not form part of the attacks effect text.
10/13/2003, 11:56 PM
PokePop-You are correct, this is what we were wanting to know in regards to this question
"Now, an interesting question, and more like what I though was being asked, is if you were to use a Pokemon Power to Poison the Active (say, using Expedition's Vileplume), could Toxic then double poison the same turn? The answer to that would also be yes. The new Poison Condition would always replace the older one, even if it's only a less than a turn old".
Was correct in the ruling I made but it never hurts to ask when the question is presented to you, also informed player of the correct ruling for Azumarill but he at least asked if I would double check so I did, Thanks for all the input
Whats Up Ken???
10/14/2003, 05:58 AM
I didn't think he was understanding the question so I clarified it for him nothing Much John
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