Kecleon with Pressure System Query

[Jeremy Badeaux]

Since this never got a reply in the "ask the masters" forum(It's on page 2 now), I'll post it here.
I'd like to get the general thoughts of the community before I have to answer this on friday.

If kecleon has a basic lightning energy card and a basic grass energy card attached and a LowPressure System is in play, would kecleon get +10hp or +20hp(and the same question for high pressure system).

I feel that this is a question that warrants a direct answer from a MT, mostly due to the fact that this would set a precedence for future rulings (mostly at events such as prereleases where there are no official rulings for the cards being used though).

Spoilers for High Pressure System and Low Pressure System(they are both stadiums):
High Pressure System
Each player pays :colorless less to retreat his or her :fire: and water Pokèmon.

Low Pressure System
Each :grass: and :lightning Pokèmon in play (both yous and your opponent's) gets +10 HP

I can't believe they don't even have a water energy symbol for PokeGym. :rolleyes:

[Mr. Grass]

This one could go either way so we really need an official answer. Offhand I'd say Kecleon only getws the bonus once since the cards group the types that get the benefits together. If the cards read more along the lines of "each :grass: pokemon AND each :lightning pokemon" I'd say it gets the bonus twice, but as is I think it's only once.

[NoPoke]

Well as worded Kecleon should get +20 HP.. The card states AND rather than OR as the conjunctive.

Each :grass: and :lightning Pokémon in play (...) gets +10HP

this expands to...

Each :grass: Pokémon in play (...) gets +10HP and each :lightning Pokémon in play (...) gets +10HP.

which can be broken into two sentances....

Each :grass: Pokémon in play (...) gets +10HP.
Each :lightning Pokémon in play (...) gets +10HP.


If the conjunction is intended to group the two types into a single compound type then ONLY Kecleon would satisfy the requirement, this seems improbable.

So the play as written guideline would have me ruling +20HP... If its a big tournament announce the HJ decision at the start of the tournament. Also for the High Pressure System if Kecleon has both :fire: and :water: energy attached then its retreat cost would increase by :colorless :colorless



[There is a problem with the card using OR rather than AND: Its much more confusing! There are two types of OR. There is the exclusive OR that is commonly used in English and the rarer inclusive OR. The exclusive or form is normally 'either....or....' . So using OR (without either) would be more likely to confuse. OR also increases the number of possible options: that with both energy types attached Kecleon would gain +0HP (zero)]

[Marcello-Milord]

Hmmm... this is a really good question.

If Pressure System is intended as counting the number of Pokémon that are :grass: and/or :lightning and give them +10 HP, then Kecleon counts as 1 Pokémon that is both types and get only +10 HP.

But if the card is intented as considering each :grass: Pokémon and give +10 HP to them, and then counting all :lightning Pokémon and give +10 HP to them, then Kecleon gets +10 HP for being Grass-type first, and then +10 HP again for being Lightning-type. So it ends up with +20 HP.

I hope MTs will answer to that question soon, because if +10 HP are good, +20 HP are great...And I know a lot of people with a Kecleon deck who may take advantage from these Stadium cards! :)

[Prof Donphan]

Hmmmm.....
I think that the two supporter can't be refered to Kecleon....
Kecleon remain a colorless type.... and the type, due his pokebody, can be modified every turn depending on which energy card is attached.
However, we wait for an official reply.


P.S. With Dragons around it should be better Kecleon remain colorless :-)))

[Dro~]

Kecleon does not remain colorless when its pokebody is triggered.

[Marcello-Milord]

Dro~ is right, Kecleon loses its Colorless type when any type of basic energy card is attached to it. So if there are 1 Grass, and 1 Lightning, Kecleon will be :grass:, :lightning, at the same time, but not :colorless anymore.So if a Kecleon with a :lightning: Energy card attached to it has 6 damage counters on it, and there is a Low Pressure System in play, if the :lightning: card is discarded from Kecleon, Kecleon loses the +10 HP bonus and it is immediately KOed.

Now it's interesting to see if he can take +10HP if it's both type... Mhmmm

[sneaselsrevenge]

Kecleon would only get +10 because despite being both types it's still only 1 Pokemon.

[DOMCGI]

It is very interesting.

I personally prefer the LowPressure System only +10Hp on Kecleon with both lightning and grass basic energy card.

But it also can be ruled as +20HP by referring to the ruling on EX Pokemon with double weakness

Q. If Kecleon has two different colored basic energies attached, and it attacks a Pokemon with weakness to both of those colors (i.e. Kabutops-EX), is the weakness calculation doubled because Kecleon is both types?
A. Sure. Damage would be up to x4 for the appropriate double Weakness. (Sep 11, 2003 PUI Rules Team Meeting)

Have to wait for official ruling.

[PokePop]

By the way, you didn't get an answer yet because we agree with you that it needs an MT to give a new ruling and our weekly Rules Team Meeting is Thursday night. It will be asked then and you'll have your answer for Friday.

[Jeremy Badeaux]

By the way, you didn't get an answer yet because we agree with you that it needs an MT to give a new ruling and our weekly Rules Team Meeting is Thursday night. It will be asked then and you'll have your answer for Friday.


I wasn't trying to act indignant or anything, but I did think it might be interesting to hear the general opinions of the community on this one(and I do understand about the rulings meetings, however I am sometimes not able to go online between the time when the rulings are made, and when I run the league on friday).

[DaytonGymLeader]

Well as worded Kecleon should get +20 HP.. The card states AND rather than OR as the conjunctive.

this expands to...

Each :grass: Pokémon in play (...) gets +10HP and each :lightning Pokémon in play (...) gets +10HP.

which can be broken into two sentances....

Each :grass: Pokémon in play (...) gets +10HP.
Each :lightning Pokémon in play (...) gets +10HP.


If the conjunction is intended to group the two types into a single compound type then ONLY Kecleon would satisfy the requirement, this seems improbable.

So the play as written guideline would have me ruling +20HP... If its a big tournament announce the HJ decision at the start of the tournament. Also for the High Pressure System if Kecleon has both :fire: and :water: energy attached then its retreat cost would increase by :colorless :colorless



[There is a problem with the card using OR rather than AND: Its much more confusing! There are two types of OR. There is the exclusive OR that is commonly used in English and the rarer inclusive OR. The exclusive or form is normally 'either....or....' . So using OR (without either) would be more likely to confuse. OR also increases the number of possible options: that with both energy types attached Kecleon would gain +0HP (zero)]
Or you could take the literal interpretation and say that a Poke only gets the benefit if it's :grass: and :lightning ;)

Weakness is cumulative, why not this? Ian, I tend to agree.

[PokePop]

I wasn't trying to act indignant or anything, but I did think it might be interesting to hear the general opinions of the community on this one(and I do understand about the rulings meetings, however I am sometimes not able to go online between the time when the rulings are made, and when I run the league on friday).
No problem. Just clarifying in case you thought we forgot you.

[Imperial]

http://server4.uploadit.org/files/211103-waterenergyimage.GIF
i bring thee good news. water energy.
------------
I think he only gets a +10 bonus if he is Grass/Electric
But who knows :P

[Jeremy Badeaux]

Thanks Imperial.

The ruling is out, and the ffects are non-stackable... fair enough(even though that would have had some major possibilties), thanks to all who participated in this topic.

[NoPoke]

can someone post a link to the ruling please

[jdb728]

can someone post a link to the ruling please
http://pokegym.net/showthread.php?t=2799

hope this helps

[NoPoke]

hmm. thats inconsistant with how cards have been worded in the past. If you were only allowed to get the effect from a card once then the card generally said so!.

Its not a replacement effect. plus those were worded so that you only got the effect once.

If it was intended to only giveonly a single +10HP then it should have been worded that way! The tradition in pokemon is to live with such errors unless they seriously affect gameplay.

Now if the card had said that all grass and lightning pokemon in play have a HP that is 10 higher than written on the card then there would be no problem. Or an extra sentance to say that you cannot benefit from this effect more than once.

Its not a real big issue but it does break the 'play as written' rule :(

[jdb728]

hmm. thats inconsistant with how cards have been worded in the past. If you were only allowed to get the effect from a card once then the card generally said so!.

Its not a replacement effect. plus those were worded so that you only got the effect once.

If it was intended to only giveonly a single +10HP then it should have been worded that way! The tradition in pokemon is to live with such errors unless they seriously affect gameplay.

Now if the card had said that all grass and lightning pokemon in play have a HP that is 10 higher than written on the card then there would be no problem. Or an extra sentance to say that you cannot benefit from this effect more than once.

Its not a real big issue but it does break the 'play as written' rule :(

I can see where you're comin' from, but I think it's important to remember that that the "play as written'" rule isn't always used, you could reference the new Ballon Berry, or Rocket's Minefield Gym(If we used the "play as written'" rule, we wouldn't know how many damage counters to place) is a great example(IMO), this is more like a "card clarification", and IMHO, it's only fair that you only get the bonus once.

Besides, if we did use the "play as written'" rule, then Low Pressure Stadium would only give you the +10hp if you were :grass: and :lightning type(as DaytonGymLeader pointed out earlier).

This post was IMO of course.
Thanks for reading.

[NoPoke]

I pointed out that alternative interpretation too.... ;)

The point is that here is an example of a ruling where you don't play as written :( But unlike the others it would not have a massive effect on game play if it were 'played as written' I hate trying to remember exceptions :-D

[jdb728]

I pointed out that alternative interpretation too.... ;)

The point is that here is an example of a ruling where you don't play as written :( But unlike the others it would not have a massive effect on game play if it were 'played as written' I hate trying to remember exceptions :-D

Sorry to have not mentioned you, just DaytonGymLeader was the only one I saw who said that when I made a quick look over the posts.
Anyway, exceptons could be the stuff likeDragon Gyrados, and Aquapolis Smeargle, where even though the flip, and the seperate effect are in different sentences, you still have to get heads to use them.

Thanks for reading.