Zangoose Ruling Required

[Nintenfreak]

If I'm battling with Zangoose, spin once and get Sword's Dance, then spin again and get Dodge, what happens? Do I end the turn with nothing happening? Or does it do double of nothing, i.e. Zero damage?

[Luxatos]

It says "spin until you get a result other than Swords Dance," right? So if you spin Dodge, Dodge is the result.

My apologies if I got the wording wrong; I don't have the figure in front of me. But that's the way I've interpreted it. Same goes for Eevee.

[Nintenfreak]

Yes, I know that. However, what I need to know is, do I dodge out of the way, or lose?

[Gibby]

The way me and my friends interpreted that is just as Luxatos stated. You spin till you get anything other then Swords Dance. If that happens to be on Dodge, then that is what you do; you dodge out of the way. Basically, that just mean's nothing happens that turn.

Remember, Dodge is a Blue color, meaning it beats everything else; but no damage is really done. So that is how we read into it.

I hope that helps some.

GG

[Prime]

I don't agree. Zangoose is performing the attack Swords Dance. A figure cannot perform more than one attack in an attack phase. I believe Swords Dance does damage based on how many times you land on Swords Dance, right? So if you land on Dodge as your first spin, you stop spinning, count the number of times you landed on Swords Dance, and then do the damage accordingly. So the attack would do 0 if your first spin landed on Dodge.

I might be wrong here, but I believe I am right.

[Gibby]

I don't agree. Zangoose is performing the attack Swords Dance. A figure cannot perform more than one attack in an attack phase. I believe Swords Dance does damage based on how many times you land on Swords Dance, right? So if you land on Dodge as your first spin, you stop spinning, count the number of times you landed on Swords Dance, and then do the damage accordingly. So the attack would do 0 if your first spin landed on Dodge.

I might be wrong here, but I believe I am right.

From recollection, Swords Dance doesn't have a damage numerical number. It simply states "Spin until you get something other then Swords Dance. If that attack does damage, double it." Or something to that effect. I'm not quoting it correctly, but I'm sure that's right.

GG

[EDIT]
blubapedia.com says that Zangoose's Swords Dance attack does the following:

"Effect: Spin until you get a result other than Swords Dance. If that result does damage, double it."
Quote (http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Zangoose_(Next_Quest_25))

So, going along with what I sated, you can land on Dodge. That's an attack that doesn't do damage, and thus you don't do anything. End of turn.

Could you have been thinking about Doduo's Fury Attack, which does do 20 times the number of times you land on Fury Attack?

[Prime]

I was probably thinking of attacks like Doduo's Fury Attack and Charizard's attack (I believe he has an attack like that too).

Now that I can actually read what it says, I would say that the attack would do nothing (not even a dodge) because the attack you landed on doesn't do damage, and Swords Dance doesn't give you any information on what to do if you land on an attack that doesn't do damage.

[DukeFireBird]

correct, attack results in a double of dodge, which is nothing

[ensignmerlin]

To my knowledge, it would just result in a normal dodge. Since dodge does no damage, then Sword Dance would have no effect at all and a normal dodge would take place.

[Luxatos]

Is Swords Dance really an attack? Or just an effect that's on Zangoose if it happens to spin that?

[Jran Sakarra]

IT is dodge then....

[Prime]

Swords Dance is an attack. Dodge can be considered an attack, and so can Miss too if you really think about it.

So if you land on Swords Dance, that is the attack you are doing. You spin again, and if it lands on Dodge, because it does no damage, you do 0 damage, and your attack is over. You don't dodge.

"Effect: Spin until you get a result other than Swords Dance. If that result does damage, double it."

It doesn't say to perform the attack it lands on. It just says, "if that result does damage, double it." If the result had any effect, like pushing pokemon back, you wouldn't get that effect. You would just check the damage on it. That is why the pokemon doesn't dodge. It just checks the damage, which is 0, then doubles it, which equals 0 still.

So Zangoose does 0.

[hectagonman]

I'm almost completely positive that your wrong. I think it performs dodge. IMO it says that it will perform anything but double damage.

[Gibby]

I agree with hectagonman. The effect says "If that result does damage", as though it's referring to the attacks that may not do damage as well. The "If" is acting like "You perform the new attack. But, if that attack has a damage value, double it."

At least, that is how I read it. And from the games I've played, that is how I would rather have it done. I tried a few games the other way and it feels really broken and clunky.

Gibby

[Prime]

Okay, I can understand where you two are coming from. But the problem we run into is that Miss/Dodge/etc aren't truly attacks. So on a dial, there is a mixture of attacks and battle effects (miss/dodge). Swords Dance says to spin again until you get something other than Swords Dance. It doesn't say to actually perform that attack. That is why I feel all Swords Dance does is take the damage value and double it and apply it as the damage Swords Dance does.

And if that logic is correct, then when you land on Dodge/Miss, because those two have no base damage, 0x2=0.

But I don't see any point to debate this anymore. Both sides could easily be right. We need that PUI guy to come on here and give an official ruling. There are many questions that need official rulings.

[Mew]

Prime is right. Your first spin landing is the attack/effect you preform.
If you land on SD, and then dodge, your swords dance doesn't do anything, and you don't dodge, because you were preforming swords dance.

[hectagonman]

How do you know that?

[Jran Sakarra]

Prime is right. Your first spin landing is the attack/effect you preform.
If you land on SD, and then dodge, your swords dance doesn't do anything, and you don't dodge, because you were preforming swords dance.

I do belive that if you land on sword dance that is a effect and not a attact...
and dodge has no damage so it can't be doubled therefor you are left with dodge...

[mtjimmer]

Slightly tricky.

Let's say it's Swords Dance vs. Purple...
Purple beats White, do whatever Purple says. (Don't re-spin.)

Let's say it's Swords Dance vs. White...Zangoose gets to spin.
If Zangoose spins Dodge, that's what it gets as its result against the opponent.
If Zangoose spins Scratch, Scratch does 40 instead of 20.
If Zangoose spins Crush Claw, Crush Claw does 180 instead of 90.
(If Zangoose spins Swords Dance, you spin until you get one of the above.)

[Prime]

So in the case that the opponent spins white, and Zangoose spins Dodge (after spinning Swords Dance), Zangoose dodges?

[mtjimmer]

Dodge.

[Jran Sakarra]

Let's say it's Swords Dance vs. Purple...
Purple beats White, do whatever Purple says. (Don't re-spin.)

I have to disagree with that....

[ShadowCard]

Let's say it's Swords Dance vs. White...Zangoose gets to spin.
If Zangoose spins Dodge, that's what it gets as its result against the opponent.
That effectively makes Swords Dance also a potential Dodge area, so the chance of you spinning Dodge = Dodge + Swords Dance. That doesn't sound right, but I'm guessing that is what was trying to be said in the Altering Attacks section on page 8. From the paranthetical in that section, "(there would be no effect to the Miss or Blue)", it seems like Miss and Blue have no effect instead of Miss and Blue replace the Swords Dance effect.

Since Dodge counts as an attack, you can choose Dodge as the attack to count against Paralysis, right?

[Axel D Ogu]

It could definitely go either way, HOWEVER, it seems to me that if Zangoose can DODGE after performing SWORDS DANCE, that makes him a little too godly? I mean, he has absolutely no downside then, and can't be poisoned? It makes more sense to me that Swords Dance followed by dodge is a fail 0 damage because, otherwise he's simply too broken? I mean who else has a 100 persent sucess rate, 2 mp and a chance to deal massive damage?

[hectagonman]

Let's say it's Swords Dance vs. Purple...
Purple beats White, do whatever Purple says. (Don't re-spin.)

I have to disagree with that....

But you don't have that fancy pokemon logo under your screen name.
So frankly, your opinion doesn't matter in THIS situation.

[mtjimmer]

1. Swords Dance is not a straight-up 'extra chance for Dodge' area - you wouldn't spin again after Swords Dance, if your opponent spun Purple or Blue.

2. Any of the spin areas are considered 'attacks'...Paralyzed just says you have to choose a "non-Miss attack". (You could choose the Dodge attack as the attack affected by Paralyzed.)

I don't mind discussion on the game - my answers aren't meant to shut down thoughts on things, just to offer rules clarity - free service!

[Jigglychu]

Technically speaking, if you spin Swords Dance, then Dodge, you do nothing.

I have my Zangoose in front of me, it says, Spin until you get a result other than Swords Dance. IF THAT RESULT DOES DAMAGE, double it.

Since Dodge does no damage, nothing happens. Dodge is not your real result, Swords Dance is. When you spin Dodge, it is just a part of the effect of the attack. Since the attack does not say "if Dodge", only "if damage", nothing happens.

[Jran Sakarra]

1. Swords Dance is not a straight-up 'extra chance for Dodge' area - you wouldn't spin again after Swords Dance, if your opponent spun Purple or Blue.

2. Any of the spin areas are considered 'attacks'...Paralyzed just says you have to choose a "non-Miss attack". (You could choose the Dodge attack as the attack affected by Paralyzed.)

I don't mind discussion on the game - my answers aren't meant to shut down thoughts on things, just to offer rules clarity - free service!

OK now on that just seems kinda broken...
I would think you would be allowed to spin again because you have another chance to get a dodge...

[Luxatos]

Technically speaking, if you spin Swords Dance, then Dodge, you do nothing.

I have my Zangoose in front of me, it says, Spin until you get a result other than Swords Dance. IF THAT RESULT DOES DAMAGE, double it.

Since Dodge does no damage, nothing happens. Dodge is not your real result, Swords Dance is. When you spin Dodge, it is just a part of the effect of the attack. Since the attack does not say "if Dodge", only "if damage", nothing happens.

You're reading that into it. I read it as, "if that result does damage, double it. (If it doesn't do damage, don't alter it.)"

Of course, mtjimmer is the authority, or at least an official representative of the authority (imagining that there are several people involved). If you want the official word, look at his posts. Obviously he doesn't mind people disagreeing for a reason, but he's clarifying how these things work for us so there shouldn't be too many disagreements.

[Axel D Ogu]

Actually, I think I just found the answer in Teh Rulebook. It says:


ALTERING ATTACKS

Some effects change the damage a pokemon does. If an effect adds or subtracts damage, it only changes attacks that actually do damage. For example, if a pokemon has an effect that multiplies the damage its attack does, and it spins a Miss or a Blue, there isn't any damage (there would be no effect to the miss or Blue.)



So yeah, the last part. It clearly says a Miss OR A BLUE would be no effect, 0 damage.

Now, you could argue that it's saying that swords dance just wouldn't AFFECT dodge, dodge still performs as normal. However, this is the difference between the word AFFECT and EFFECT. Important distinction, because affect would mean dodge goes off, and effect means nothing happens. And I'm reading effect so, looks like nothing happens. Check your rulebook if your dubious.

[Luxatos]

Affect is a verb, effect is the corresponding noun. That's the only difference. Miss and Blue don't do damage anyway, so the effect (i.e. Swords Dance, etc.) doesn't happen. That, as far as I can tell, is what that sentence means. Besides, look at the first part. "It only changes attacks that actually do damage."

I never thought I'd say this, but it would be nice for it to be in "legalese." Precise language.

[SPARTA]

mtjimmer is right, you are all wrong. Stop argueing already =/.

[warpy]

Actually, I think I just found the answer in Teh Rulebook. It says:


ALTERING ATTACKS

Some effects change the damage a pokemon does. If an effect adds or subtracts damage, it only changes attacks that actually do damage. For example, if a pokemon has an effect that multiplies the damage its attack does, and it spins a Miss or a Blue, there isn't any damage (there would be no effect to the miss or Blue.)



So yeah, the last part. It clearly says a Miss OR A BLUE would be no effect, 0 damage.

Now, you could argue that it's saying that swords dance just wouldn't AFFECT dodge, dodge still performs as normal. However, this is the difference between the word AFFECT and EFFECT. Important distinction, because affect would mean dodge goes off, and effect means nothing happens. And I'm reading effect so, looks like nothing happens. Check your rulebook if your dubious.

I don't think so. It says "(there would be no effect to the miss or Blue.)" I would think that would mean miss or blue arn't altered.

I agree with mtjimmer.

[W1ld1]

After reading through the rules multiple times and letting it sink in for two days, I'm 99.9 percent positive that the ruling on Zangoose's "attack" - that has the "effect" "multiply" damage if you spin an attack that does damage - is that if you don't spin an attack that does damage you do not count it as a successful attack. Your initial spin is your attack and color. If that spin has an effect, the only way to trigger the effect, in Zangoose's case, is to spin an attack that does damage. Clearly, if you spin dodge, it doesn't do damage, so the effect of his attack that multiplies damage doesn't trigger - the initial attack with the effect multiply damage by two if you spin an attack that does damage, does no damage. This conclusion came from a careful interpretation of the rulebook under advanced rules (as someone on the board already quoted).

Hope this helps.

[bullados]

Slightly tricky.

Let's say it's Swords Dance vs. Purple...
Purple beats White, do whatever Purple says. (Don't re-spin.)

Let's say it's Swords Dance vs. White...Zangoose gets to spin.
If Zangoose spins Dodge, that's what it gets as its result against the opponent.
If Zangoose spins Scratch, Scratch does 40 instead of 20.
If Zangoose spins Crush Claw, Crush Claw does 180 instead of 90.
(If Zangoose spins Swords Dance, you spin until you get one of the above.)

Would people PLEASE read Jimmer's posts every once in a while?

w1ld1, you are wrong.

[Axel D Ogu]

Ok so to everyone who is all Mjtimmer OMG he's so teh RIGHT sTFU ALREEDY!??!!

He said his perspective wasn't meant to shut down debate. Go read his posts again before trying to suck up.

And it should be contested because if you actually play the game, Zangoose is easily the best figure in the set by FAR with swords dance = dodge. He was close from our play testing when swords dance dodge was miss, so, it's just a little -_-. However obviously some sitches are just better peices than others and i'm not saying Zangoose is a huge broken game breaker....but just that with that ruling he is VASTLY the best all around figure in the set bar none. ok so maybe i'm saying he's a little broken o_O

[SPARTA]

Ok so to everyone who is all Mjtimmer OMG he's so teh RIGHT sTFU ALREEDY!??!!

He said his perspective wasn't meant to shut down debate. Go read his posts again before trying to suck up.

Yes, they were. He is the one who makes the calls, and you listen to them. Argue all you want, YOU. ARE. WRONG. No one is sucking up, they are trying to get it through your heads that a ruling has been made, and the discussion is over.


And it should be contested because if you actually play the game, Zangoose is easily the best figure in the set by FAR with swords dance = dodge. He was close from our play testing when swords dance dodge was miss, so, it's just a little -_-. However obviously some sitches are just better peices than others and i'm not saying Zangoose is a huge broken game breaker....but just that with that ruling he is VASTLY the best all around figure in the set bar none. ok so maybe i'm saying he's a little broken o_O

WRONG. Sword Dance + Scratch=40 damage, almost any good figure can beat that. Sword Dance is 25%, crush claw even less than that, that means a less than 1/16 chance of nailing it. AS for dodge, you have a 5/16 chance of nailing it (25% chance on spin, 6.125% getting sword dance then dodge). That means 6/16 chance of doing it. Not broken at all.

[Axel D Ogu]

I don't mind discussion on the game - my answers aren't meant to shut down thoughts on things, just to offer rules clarity - free service!

...

[hectagonman]

OK? You are discussing it.....wrongly. Please notice that mtjimmer helped produce the rules for this game. Either way, any way you argue, you are still wrong.

[Axel D Ogu]

LMAO, i understand the sitch dude I know he gave the ruling, but that doesn't mean I have to agree with it? That's legit that you think its a LEGIT ruling but I happen to think its a BAD ruling. It has absolutely NOTHING to do with wrong or right so I have to say that you sir = epic failz

[SPARTA]

LMAO, i understand the sitch dude I know he gave the ruling, but that doesn't mean I have to agree with it? That's legit that you think its a LEGIT ruling but I happen to think its a BAD ruling. It has absolutely NOTHING to do with wrong or right so I have to say that you sir = epic failz

You don't have to agree with it, by all means continue to argue it, it gives the rest of us a good laugh. Continue to think its wrong, by all means, you are still wrong ^_^.

[Luxatos]

Hmm. Are my posts invisible? Did you not read this line in the rulebook? "It only changes attacks that actually do damage." It doesn't change an attack like Dodge. It's still Dodge.

[Axel D Ogu]

Again i'll repeat not saying it's wrong, just saying its BAD. Not legit. Not the ruling I would have made, ect. Comprende?

Its still weird that attacks can cross over their color boundaries. It seems like White attacks should affect white, puprle affect purple, blue blue ect. Not a white attack that can cross over and be any other attack. Inconsistent but hey WHATEVS only my opinion soooo cya at dogmass

[Luxatos]

What color, in your opinion, should it have been? Rainbow?

[W1ld1]

Ok... after reading through the rulebook again, and letting it sink in for a few more days... I'll have to wait for an official ruling on the PTFG Web site or a future rulebook.

Before I go into it let me restate the rulebook rule (pg. 8 "Altering Attacks):

"Some effects change the damage a Pokemon does. If an effect adds or subtracts damage, it only changes attacks that actually do damage. For example, if a Pokemon has an effect that multiplies the damage its attack does, and it spins a Miss or a Blue, there isn't any damage (there would be no effect to the Miss or Blue)."

Now I believe the last sentence in which it said there would be no effect to the Miss or Blue is referring to the original effect of the attack that's looking to be modified, meaning the effect doesn't trigger because it was not a damage based attack. We all agree on this, I think. BUT... this wording could mean one of two things happen. It could mean the non-damage attack resolves or it doesn't resolve because, in order for the effect to trigger (from the initial spin of swords dance), the immediately successive spin must be a damage based attack.

There's a big statement going for the successful resolution of Dodge after spinning swords dance, "If an effect adds or subtracts damage, it only changes attacks that actually do damage." That statement right there tells me if it's another attack (that doesn't do damage) after the initial attack and effect (swords dance in this case) it will not be changed (a miss or blue). An effect only "changes" attacks that actually do damage. It's clear a dodge doesn't do damage, so the effect of swords dance does not trigger or change the attack.

BUT...

It could be argued that "change" refers to damage related attacks and it is merely a reiteration of common sense (you cannot multiply damage of an attack that does no damage), still leaving the problem of resolution (does the effect not triggering mean the attack is over and it does no damage or do you resolve the non-damage attack?) However, I would think they makers wouldn't need to reiterate common sense. I would only think they'd need to qualify the rules and disambiguate them if necessary. However, they didn't disambiguate the resolution of the attack after spinning the effect, still leaving the rule up for interpretation pending an official PTFG ruling on their Web site or in future editions of the rulebook.

All the makers would need to do to fix this confusion is add a qualifying statement after the last sentence of the ruling I listed that says "there would be no effect to the Miss or Blue and those attacks (Miss or Blue) resolve as they would without the effect" or "If an effect that would multiply damage on successive spins does not result in an attack that does damage immediately after the effect, it does not resolve and the attack does 0 damage.

[SPARTA]

If an attack had an effect, would you not do it as well? Dodge has the added effect of dodging all the attacks of your opponent attacks. So, in your logic, you are 100 % right, the attack does 0 damage, but it also has the added effect of doging your opponents attack, thus the 0 damage means nothing. Does that clear things up?

[W1ld1]

If an attack had an effect, would you not do it as well? Dodge has the added effect of dodging all the attacks of your opponent attacks. So, in your logic, you are 100 % right, the attack does 0 damage, but it also has the added effect of doging your opponents attack, thus the 0 damage means nothing. Does that clear things up?

I'm not sure. See... there needs to be more clarity in the resolution of an attack after an effect that modifies damage. Does the dodge resolve, or does it fizzle (not resolving dodge, but resolving the initial attack), with the effect doing 0 damage because there was no damage to the attack? I can see what you're saying, but it's not clear in the rulebook either way.

[Jran Sakarra]

Slightly tricky.

Let's say it's Swords Dance vs. Purple...
Purple beats White, do whatever Purple says. (Don't re-spin.)

Let's say it's Swords Dance vs. White...Zangoose gets to spin.
If Zangoose spins Dodge, that's what it gets as its result against the opponent.
If Zangoose spins Scratch, Scratch does 40 instead of 20.
If Zangoose spins Crush Claw, Crush Claw does 180 instead of 90.
(If Zangoose spins Swords Dance, you spin until you get one of the above.)

The thing is that most people would spin again befor the other figure stops...

[Master_Whiscash_77]

That effectively makes Swords Dance also a potential Dodge area, so the chance of you spinning Dodge = Dodge + Swords Dance. That doesn't sound right, but I'm guessing that is what was trying to be said in the Altering Attacks section on page 8. From the paranthetical in that section, "(there would be no effect to the Miss or Blue)", it seems like Miss and Blue have no effect instead of Miss and Blue replace the Swords Dance effect.

Since Dodge counts as an attack, you can choose Dodge as the attack to count against Paralysis, right?

Actually, the chance of getting Dodge would be Dodge + Dodge's % chance of being hit excluding Swords Dance x % chance of hitting Swords Dance. I think that's right.

[Professor_Baker]

It would appear that there are two camps and this question needs an official answer, I'm not sure where this should come from.

Here's how I think about the Swords Dance attach and how to resolve this and other questions over these types of attacks. When attacking the first spin determines the attack. In the case of most attacks the results are easily determined. So Ho-Oh's Fire Blast attack does 120 damage, Gust does 50 damage, etc. For other figures while the attack has been determined by the first spin, the resolution of the combat damage requires additional spins. These additional spins do not change the attack, but only determine the results of that attack. So for Beedrill if the first spin lans on Twineedle as the attack, a second spin is needed to determine if the attack does 40 or 80 damage. For Charizard a first spin of Fire Spin requires additional spins to determine the amount of damage done. But a spin ;landing on Miss does not chage the attack, it just ends the opportunity to do additional damage. Eevee and Zangoose would work the same way. If the first spin is Focus Energy or Sword's Dance then that result is the attack for this turn. In order to resolve that attack additional spins are necessary. If Eevee lands on one of the tackle attacks, then the damage is doubled. If a Miss or Dodge is the result then the attack Focus Energy does no damage and this would be resolved according to the rules. It is important to note that if the defending pokemon spun Miss as the result of their attack they would still be knocked out. Miss loses to all attacks. (See Page 3.) So if Zangoose's first spin results in Sword's Dance, then additional spins are necessary to resolve the attack. If Scratch or Crush Claw are the result of the additional spin then the damage is double. If Dodge is the result, then Sword's Dance does no damage.

Carefully read the Altering Attacks section on Page 8 and this is the only logical interpretation of that rule. "if a pokemon has an effect that multiplies the damage its attack does, and it spins a Miss or a Blue, ther isn't any damage." Stop there for a second and digest that statement. Sword's Dance followed by a Dodge has no damage. The part in parentheses "(there would be no effect to the Miss or Blue)" refers back to the fist sentence "some effects change the damage...) it does not say change the attack, at this point the spins are to determine the damage of the attack of the first spin results.

I hope this helps and I believe that thinking about this in stages will keep these types of questions from happenin gin the future. The first spin determines the attack, all subsequent spins are only determining the damage based on the effect of the first spin.

[Lunar]

There's already been a ruling on this.

Focus Energy/Swords Dance followed by Dodge acts as a Dodge. However, purple attacks will still trump Swords Dance, so if Murkrow spins Whirlwind and Zangoose spins Swords Dance, Zangoose does not get to spin again to try for a Blue dodge.

[ryanvergel]

You guys need to take the tone down a notch. Keep it calm, cool and collected.

Discuss all day and night. Jimmer is a higher authority, yes, but there have been times when the higher authorities turned out to give wrong rulings (this is very rare, but in the TCG it's happened before IIRC).

If you DO choose to discuss and debate, keep it clean and decent. Nothing's gotten out of hand, but that doesn't mean this thread isn't on that route.