SW Muk broken?

[i like nachos]

http://pokegym.net/gallery/displayimage.php?imageid=31904

I think the card is overly good for an uncommon and i general it s a Stage 1 that auto poisons anything with Grass attached and 3 for 50 that confuses and no retreat. I think it has alot of potential, but I don't knowwhat to play it with. Any ideas??

[Rai]

I do recall prerelease players going "Wow... Muk's actually not that bad...!", and this is in a format without Multi Energy or Double Rainbow. Grimer's not bad either, with Gunky (yay, smokescreen for 1 energy, even IF it doesn't damage).

...Of course, the retreat cost is bad. The weakness is going to become bad VERY quickly. AGAIN. (Man, when has Psychic weakness not been horrible, other then the HP->MT format?). Not to mention the required 3 energy in order to attack. AND HP is horrid. Broken might be a bit of a stretch. Of course, it's not half bad for something that at first glance doesn't look that good at all.

I do wonder if it'd make a good Crobat friend. You have this attacking and locking them active, Crobat can up the poison when needed, and snipe should it have to. Of course, how do you set up things quickly? Especially the energy cost? Hm... Questions indeed...

HP though is DEFINATELY the most pressing Issue. HP. 80 HP. 80. Oh dear. One shotable by a lot... Why isn't it's HP like, 100 or something? That'd balance this thing out quite nicely, actually :/

[moza]

DRE was in CG

Multi was in DP/HP

They are still legal.

And so is Warp point, switch, ssu, etc. etc.

[Rai]

DRE was in CG

Multi was in DP/HP

They are still legal.


...I was referring to people mentioning this during the prerelease.

Limited Format (SW) wouldn't have DRE.

[Mew]

^
Yep, and he means pre-release format. =D
You should edit that!

[ZAKtheGeek]

It might be okay sitting on the bench. Other than that, it seems like a very situational Scramble card...

[ryanvergel]

Eh...

Here are a few problems:

1. Lati-lock. If this, or any other body deck (amphy... kabutops) gets popular this instantly solves the problem.
2. You'll run into decks that simply won't lay down their DRE or scrambles until needed and kill you. This isn't that great vs blissey or lucario, etc. Even if they ARE poisoned because this was a 1/1 tech line. Remember it's a stage 1 that is shut off with cessation, that has to take a bench spot up and needs to be set up itself to get going. Even then it's such a situational tech that it's hard to get it. How many decks can afford a 1/1 line to possibly poison the opponent some of the time? Few to none.
3. MUK isn't even that good in itself. No resistance. PPC attack? Hard to power up. Auto-confuse and retreat lock is cool, but when people are playing 2-3 warp point in a deck they'll be able to get around that.
4. 80hp on a stage 1 is okay, but NOT as a main attacker.

As a rule of thumb, a pokemon generally has to get over the even slump, and into the odd slump. These slumps are the hp slumps.

40hp
60hp
80hp
100hp

All weak. You look at lucario with 90hp, blissey with 130, etc. 80 is just a bad number. If it was 90? That might be doable. It's always been the case that getting over that 10hp hump is HUGE for pokemon in the active spot. Medicham ex had 110hp. Mew had the 90 over the 80, or else we'd see less of that card played. Banette had 90.

You get the picture. It's important for active spot pokemon or starter pokemon to have those odd hps. Having a 40hp starter is abyssmal when you can have a 50hp starter.

Is muk broken? Nah.

[charmander rox]

Well, I can see a Toxicroak/Muk/Crobat deck in the near future.

[moza]

I figured why would he be talking about prereleases.

[SPARTA]

I believ Ryan answered this question, as well as explaining fully his reasons.

[Skull Bash]

Playable? Yes. Broken? No. For the answers Ryan had. It's too easy to just retreat also.

[Dr. Mason]

Muk-Weezing Crobat=teh future.

[SPARTA]

The future of bad decks? Indeed.

[(TYranitarFReak)]

This thread just makes me laugh...

[aggromaster94]

Great in prerelease(won me two matches) Bad in any other format(as far as I'm concerned.

[rhodesia123]

its worse to have 100 hp than 90 hp

[Rai]

its worse to have 100 hp than 90 hp

Pardon? More HP is bad?

Perhaps you meant to say 100 HP isn't that much of a difference over 90 HP, which when it comes to OHKOs is... still not true. Nidoqueen one shots 90 HP pokemon. Several pokemon can do 80 damage, which + 1 pluspower is 90. It'd take 2 pluspowers to OHKO an 100 HP pokemon.

Seems like a rather bizarre statement to make :/

Muk really does just feel like a Toxicroak friend though (can't retreat, can't evolve to get rid of Poison, you're stuck). It's just too low HP to last against T2 decks OR Set up decks, and it doesn't deal the kind of damage required of a T2 deck (or at least weaken the attack and give it less energy cost) :/

[charmander rox]

its worse to have 100 hp than 90 hp

:confused:

That's one of the wierdest statements I've ever heard.

[Magic_Umbreon]

its worse to have 100 hp than 90 hp

Absolutely. For anyone who sees this reasoning as enigmatic...:

Predicate 1: Pokémon with higher HP will be weaker in other areas to compensate compared for their lower HPed cousins in general. Having 10 extra HP than an odd HP will not be more helpful than the reduced capabilities are a hinderance.
Predicate 2: It is desirable for the helpful attributes to outweigh the hinderances.
Conclusion: 90 HP > 100 HP.

Back to back posts merged. The following information has been added:

Pardon? More HP is bad?

Perhaps you meant to say 100 HP isn't that much of a difference over 90 HP

No, I think he meant 100 IS less desirable,

[graznador]

100 HP used to be worse than 90 on an EX back when Desert Ruins was legal.

[Scipio]

Sorry, but I take a 100 HP Poke over a 90 HP one everyday due to earlier reasons. There isn't much that can OHKO a 100 HP poke even with Pluspower, opposed to 90 HP + Pluspower, which is where Single-Flip-Gallade, Flygon Ex, Kricketune, Lucario X, Banette, DRE Infernape and several others reside.
100 HP damage + Pluspower...only the Nidoqueens spring to mind.

[Luxatos]

I don't get the reasoning behind "odd HP" Pokemon being preferable. Ryan says that 40, 60, 80, and 100 are all weak. But 90 is good? 50? Let's face it, an "odd" number of HP is also 10 LESS than an even number.

Now back on topic with Muk... it can be good. How many decks use Scramble or DRE or Holon's Castforms? Or even delta Rainbow? It's just as useful as the effect on Typhlosion's attack.

[ixidor89]

I think that what Ryan meant was referring more to levels of playability in a card vs. their HP, not even HP vs. odd HP. Lucario would be even better if it had 100 HP, but it's playability would certainly go down if it's HP were 80.

[SPARTA]

Playability difference I think was Ryans point. Lucario wouldn't be much better if it had 100 hp, but drop it down to 80, and it becomes useless. Blissey wouldnt be that much better with 140 hp, but drop it down to 120, and the list of pokemon that can kill it becomes much larger.

[vanderbilt_grad]

A 90 HP Pokemon is better than 100 HP one if Lumineon is in play.

[Shino Bug Master]

Having 100HP is better then 90 in most cases, but only stage 1s really can have either, and looking through them, how many stage 1's with 100HP are really that playable? Vespiquen was okay with torterra, but still 90 seems to be more playable. And in some cases (lumineon) 90 can be better.

But overall having 100HP > Having 90.

[KingOfKings715]

why is everyone talking about 100 hp being better then 90 >.> so someone posted an extremely idiotic comment. just ignore it......only in the gym i swear.....as for the post ryan already took care of it and please dont say crobat blah blah blah is the future.....

[Ikari]

Rattata SW = 30 HP IT OWNS!!! :lol:

[Dark Weedle]

is this a joke? no main attacker with 80 hp is playable end of story

[Rai]

is this a joke? no main attacker with 80 hp is playable end of story

Wormadam and Kricketune aren't playable?

The 80 HP is excuseable if you're fast enough to make up for it. Meaning you're dealing good damage for low energy, or you have some sort of energy acceleration built in.

Muk has none of these though, so that's why it's not as amazing as otherwise be.

At least give the correct reasons for saying a card's not good. :/