Decklists and Deck Checks at Challenges

[SteveP]

I'm the HJ at our upcoming Colorado Springs Gym Challenge. I'm interested in how rigorously other HJs out there will be doing Deck Checks.

I plan on collecting decklists at the beginning, doing random deck checks during the Swiss rounds, then performing complete deck checks when cutting to the playoffs (obviously only for the playoff players).

I suppose I'll scan the lists for completeness when I collect them (ie., names, card ID/Set #s), but probably not anything more.

[GymLeaderPhil]

We always run deck checks for all of our premiere events. This is how I do mine:

1. Check to see that the player filled out all of the important player information correctly.
2. See if the deck is in order (if not, before the tournament I ask the player to do so. If we are in the swiss or single elimination: the player does not touch his/her deck while I'm doing deck checks)
3. Verify the totals of the cards listed on the sheet compaired with the actual cards in the deck.
4. Count the deck face up, looking for any markings or breaks in the sleeve.
5. Flip the deck on it's base and rub your thumb over each corner, looking for breaks or marks.
6. Count the deck face down, looking for any markings or breaks in the sleeve.

Deck checks should never take more than ten minutes. When randomly selecting a deck to check during the swiss rounds, it's important to being inconspicuous to whom will be deck checked. There are two opportunties to collect a deck during the swiss rounds: one right before the deck is presented to the opponent, the second is when the game is over and before any of the cards are removed from play. Deck checks should always be made away from the tournament area and with the person.
-Phil

[annisarich]

I think you got it between those two posts.

[DaytonGymLeader]

Decks should be checked AFTER they have offered for cut/shuffle. This signifies a few things:

1. That player states that their deck is legal for the format and ready to play
2. That player states that their deck is "sufficiently" randomized

Decklist onceover when decklists are accepted during registration. This is very staff dependent. If you have 1 judge, don't expect this to happen as your judge will most likely be task saturated. Look for out of format cards, correct info on the decklist for the individual and the cards (ie, Name, POP ID, Quantity Of Card, Card Name (FULL CARD NAME, NO ABBREVIATIONS, Card Set, Card ID#).

Deck checks during the event:
1. Initial count face up. This lets you check for bad sleeves/marked cards on the front side.
2. Sort via card name
3. Match the cards up with what is on the decklist by name and quantity. NO ABBREVIATIONS ON THE DECK LIST
4. Count again face down. Check for bad sleeves/marked cards on the back side
5. Initial bottom of decklist with Round Number
6. Return deck with deckcheck time +3 minutes time extension to the round

Deck checks after Swiss Cut
1. Segregate players from the deck check area
2. Perform above steps
3. Fold decklists so that the name is the only thing showing and place the deck on top of it
4. Place decklists/decks to facilitate pairings for the playoffs (ie 1 across from 8, etc)

[PokePop]

Note: If you're deck-checking for youngsters, randomize the deck for them.
Otherwise, you probably just handed that kid a loss as they draw 13 energy cards in a row.
Most kids can't "shuffle".
They can only multi-cut.

[SteveP]

Thanks for the advise guys. I think I'm going to have to hire someone as a full-time deck checker (during turn-in and the Swiss round random checks).

DGL, doing the deck check just before the opponent cuts is a GREAT idea. That's a great time to check for Stacking and/or Interleaving.

I'm also interested in what kind of common infractions do you discover when doing deck checks. I'd assume that the Cheating-type infractions (marked cards, stacking, interleaving, tech-your-opponent inserts) are uncommon.

Also, if you do the deck check just before the initial cut by the opponent, and an infraction is discovered which results in a game-loss penalty, I'd assume that penalty is applied to THAT game (because it really hasn't started yet).

[ScythKing]

Thanks for the advise guys. I think I'm going to have to hire someone as a full-time deck checker (during turn-in and the Swiss round random checks).

DGL, doing the deck check just before the opponent cuts is a GREAT idea. That's a great time to check for Stacking and/or Interleaving.

I'm also interested in what kind of common infractions do you discover when doing deck checks. I'd assume that the Cheating-type infractions (marked cards, stacking, interleaving, tech-your-opponent inserts) are uncommon.

Also, if you do the deck check just before the initial cut by the opponent, and an infraction is discovered which results in a game-loss penalty, I'd assume that penalty is applied to THAT game (because it really hasn't started yet).

My advice -
Check 'em all as you register them. I insist the players keep the cards in the same order as written down on the decklist. Makes for a fast check and at the same time you can look at sleeves, etc. This way you minimize the check time and you save yourself the heartache of disqualifying some kid that had an illegal deck for some dumb reason. Afterwards you can offer to shuffle the deck if they are small. Most of the errors I see are too many/few cards, and incorrect count.

I do random checks on the top players in each age group around the 3rd round. Make sure they didn't slip anything in. I do this before the round so to miimize disruption to the playing time.

IMHO it is misplacing your valuable time to "(check)just before the opponent cuts is a GREAT idea. That's a great time to check for Stacking and/or Interleaving" - the players have a responsibility to cut and/or shuffle the opponents deck to maximize their chance of a fair play. We are not nannies.
My 2 centavos...

[RainbowRichards]

We've been blessed with enough staff at our North VA/MD events to do full decklist registration checks during event registration. We insist that decks be broken down and sorted to facilitate quick but thorough 100% deck checks before Round 1.

Random checks occur throughout the event, and 100% of all T8 get checked again going in to elim rounds.

[DaytonGymLeader]

DGL, doing the deck check just before the opponent cuts is a GREAT idea. That's a great time to check for Stacking and/or Interleaving.That's the exact reason for doing it. Under the old DCI/WotC days, the norm was (and stil is) to grab decks prior to the opponent's cut/shuffle. When the players present their decks, they are saying that their deck is sufficiently randomized.

What you usually find is card names written down incorrectly, errors in quantity (3 Copy Cats when the decklist says 4, and 4 of another card where the decklist says 3; 61 cards on the decklist, 60 cards in deck; 59 cards on decklist, 60 cards in deck; etc etc)

Also, if you do the deck check just before the initial cut by the opponent, and an infraction is discovered which results in a game-loss penalty, I'd assume that penalty is applied to THAT game (because it really hasn't started yet).You are correct - penalties, however, are dictated by circumstance and other factors.

Check 'em all as you register them. I insist the players keep the cards in the same order as written down on the decklist. Makes for a fast check and at the same time you can look at sleeves, etc. This way you minimize the check time and you save yourself the heartache of disqualifying some kid that had an illegal deck for some dumb reason. Afterwards you can offer to shuffle the deck if they are small. Most of the errors I see are too many/few cards, and incorrect count.It's nice if you have the staff to do that, but sometimes it's just not feasable.

[ScythKing]

It's nice if you have the staff to do that, but sometimes it's just not feasable.

heck it took Vince no time at TN States - I admit he was faster than I would have been but it still usually takes me no longer than a minute or so for each deck IF they are in order - that's the trick.

[AXE]

I know it may seem harsh but if a deck list is filled out incorrectly that player should be DQed. Or atleast for the 15+ age group. If you can't properly fill a decklistt and you'er over the age of 15 you might have some prob. I know its harsh but thats the way it should be done.

[yoshi1001]

I know it may seem harsh but if a deck list is filled out incorrectly that player should be DQed. Or atleast for the 15+ age group. If you can't properly fill a decklistt and you'er over the age of 15 you might have some prob. I know its harsh but thats the way it should be done.

So you're suggesting that anyone who makes even a minor error on their decklist be DQed because they have a "problem"? I once had a person state there were 4 "ho-ho"s in his deck. Should I have DQed him?

[FireFighter095ReBorn]

In nyc deck checks were required before the tourney and after the swiss ended the deck checks were done again. I like the deck checks because its true that decks can have some illegal cards an at one point at states i heard a winning deck had 68-70 cards. Deck checks are a good idea because they make sure someoen isent cheating and it will show if a deck is done wrong.

[PokePop]

I wonder if that was the same guy that had a 55 card deck at the TMvTA prerelease...

Axe: Harsh, man. Harsh.

[AXE]

Yoshi- Thats a spelling error not a deck error. There's a dif. in spelling the cards name wrong and entering with a deck that isn't the one you wrote down on the deck list
I am very pro deck checks. If there is a deck check and the person still has a "incorrect" after the deck check then under no circumstances should he be allowed to continue in the tourny. And by turning your deck list you are stating that is the deck you will be running. Thus if it is not you should be DQed.

On another note do you believe that there should be a penilty for not setting out your prizes 'cause at this moment in time there reall isn't.

[SteveP]

Why are you being so harsh AXE? Did you play against someone who had an illegal deck or deck list, and lost? You sound like a biased victim here.

Those who propose DQs from just about anything are barbaric. They are mean-spirited, have NO sympathy for others, and are SOOO pessimistic. They're NOT rational people.


On another note do you believe that there should be a penilty for not setting out your prizes 'cause at this moment in time there reall isn't.

I'd say that just about ANY judge would impose a penalty for failure to place prizes. The harshness of the penalty depends on what and how many cards were played before the infraction was noticed. At our Gym, I had to give a game loss because of the amount and type of trainers played before the prizes were layed out. Not something I wanted to do, but felt compeled to do because of the advantaged gained by the infracting party.

[Ez1]

1. Years of playing has taught me that it is usually a better, more
experienced player asking for a DQ against a less knowledgeable
opponent. Another winning "edge" against the weaker or newer
players. I have on a number of occassions seen newer or weaker
players leave and never come back because an experienced
player humiliated or in someway took unfair advantage of them.

2. Our goal should not be to seek to DQ players but to insure that
the game is fairly played.

3. I have seen many players that were new to the game, young or
even a little "slow" have trouble with a deck list and on
a number of occassions have had to assist players in filling them out.

4. The situation should dictate the penalty. We don't give life
in prison to people who J walk(though maybe we should???).

5. If it is believed that a player has altered his deck to gain unfair
advantage then they should be DQ'd. Cheating should never
be tolerated.

6. Even though there are rankings, trophys, trips and other prizes, we
should never forget that the main purpose of the game is to
have fun.

Regarding prizes: Let he who has never failed to put out his prizes cast
the first penalty.

I've never seen a game where forgetting to put out the prizes made a difference
in the outcome. I suppose it could, but I would never ask for an opponent
to be penalized if I thought it was by accident.

[AXE]

Please, Please forgive me for doing this but I am Axe's father. I've signed on under his name so I could respond and apologize for his statements. He really is a good kid and you are correct about his motivation for his harshness. I'll have a talk with him and once again I'm sorry.

SteveP
Why are you being so harsh AXE? Did you play against someone who had an illegal deck or deck list, and lost? You sound like a biased victim here.

[Gym Leader Blaine]

I know it may seem harsh but if a deck list is filled out incorrectly that player should be DQed. Or atleast for the 15+ age group. If you can't properly fill a decklistt and you'er over the age of 15 you might have some prob. I know its harsh but thats the way it should be done.

According to PUI Penalty Guidelines if a player deck list is filled out incorrectly hence having a illegal deck then the TO or HJ could issue a caution if it was not on purpose by a younger player. If it is a older player that should know better then a warning should be issued.

[AXE]

Its really me this time and i apoligize for being so harsh.

But it just seems like a or a warning doesn't do anyhting. Which is true. Its like dealing whith children.(which in most cases your are) What happens when you just say don't do it agian. They go right back out and do it. PUI should have sometype of penalty guide line regarding not setting out your prizes. MAybe a prize penelty or at least something more than just "Don't do it agian"

[davechri]

But once a warning is given out in organized play, a second offense incurs a penalty.

THAT is the reason why judges should be informed of every "fishy" thing some people do. So the next time they do it (and they will), there's a downside for them.

[PokePop]

Its really me this time and i apoligize for being so harsh.

But it just seems like a or a warning doesn't do anyhting. Which is true. Its like dealing whith children.(which in most cases your are) What happens when you just say don't do it agian. They go right back out and do it. PUI should have sometype of penalty guide line regarding not setting out your prizes. MAybe a prize penelty or at least something more than just "Don't do it agian"
Well the penalties do escalate.
Things that are honest mistakes and are fixable I'm pretty forgiving over.
I do agree that there needs to be some intermediate penalty for appropriate situations.

[AXE]

About not placing the prizes- The way i look at it is the very second someone draws a card whith out placing their prizes they completly change the out come of the game. Taht one card could be just what they needed to get their deck started or if they later pick cards randomly to set as prizes one of those cards could be what they needed. So it COMPLETLY changes the game. So a little more than just a "don't do it agian" should be used and thats all ive ever seen been done

[PokePop]

Why? Was their deck not random? Was it stacked so that the card they drew was a specific card?

If not, then it is a minor procedural error.

[AXE]

If a card is not in the prizes where it should be your opponent has more of a chance to get that card where if it was in the prizes it would be much harder to get. I know there are many tiimes the first prize i set down could have help so if i would have "forgotten" to place my prizes it could have completly changed the out come of the game.

[PokePop]

That only applies if they used a search effect and searched for a card.
If it was just a draw of their first card, it's just a random card.
Key word: Random.
Random means random.
If the deck is random, it doesn't really matter if they drew to top card or the 2nd card or the 7th card.
It's random.

Now, it's still a procedural error and gets a Caution (or higher if not the first error), but it, by itself, is not a major error.